Rifles, stocks and shooting stance, ...oh my Options

[Xirces]

I'm trying to reconcile the way that stocks (especially folding/retractable ones) work in SR (stupid of me, I know).

The way I reason it is...

If a handgun (pistol or SMG style) has a folding stock it may be fired from the shoulder, the stock giving 1RC. The implication is that rifle style weapons (with fixed stock) should always get 1RC when shouldered. Further, shock pads provide another level of RC, but can only be put on fixed stocks.

A rifle/shotgun with a folding stock only gets that benefit when the stock is extended (when folded the benefit is better concealability).

In order to use a scope on a rifle it's required that a gun be shouldered.

Does all this sound reasonable?

Should there be a penalty for using a weapon shouldered? (Possibly something like a +1 for perception tests). It should be a fairly simple matter for a player to note how he normally handles his weapon (any double entendre is purely in your imagination) and then specify if varying.

I'm not interested in major rule changes (or how things work IRL) particularly, but just in making sense of this - looking through BBB and CC sometimes a folding stock adds RC, other times it adds/removes conc, so I'd quite like a quick, simple ruling.

I'm also assuming that concealability for listed weapons is the maximum - if something is listed as conc.3 with a folding stock then it's actually 2 with it unfolded - is this a good assumption?

[JaronK]

I would assume that the larger rounds fired by rifles mean there's more recoil, and the stock, combined with the mass of the rifle, are what makes it so there's no penalty in that situation. That's just a guess, but it makes the whole thing work under current rules.

JaronK

[Xirces]

I like the idea - in that case, shouldn't there be a penalty for shooting rifle-style weapons without the stock in use (maybe add 1 to recoil penalties)?

[Austere Emancipa...]

There should always be a penalty for shooting a long arm without using the stock.

I personally went with a slightly modified version of JaronK's reasoning. I have no idea what types of weapons stocks give Recoil Compensation to, because I think I've never used the canon rules for that.

[RedmondLarry]

I agree with JaronK's reasoning. Since the rules don't provide a RC benefit from a rifle's fixed stock, I explain it the way he does.

In my game I'd like to start enforcing the <Simple Action> to get a folding stock or retractable stock into position, in order to get the 1 point of recoil compensation. We haven't done it so far, mostly because of the mental energy involved.

[Xirces]

Point taken about RL...

What I *really* meant was that I'm happy to keep the rules pretty much as is but trying to fit the mechanic for this into them. Basically I don't want a huge discussion about how things don't really work like that and I ought to change every rule in the book to make something realistic.

In terms of SR mechanics then...

Rifles/Shotguns need to be shouldered and use a stock or there is a penalty (AE - are you suggesting a TN mod rather than recoil penalty?). If such as weapon has a folding/retractable/whatever stock then it takes a ready weapon action to unfold and (presumably) lock into place.

If a handgun has a folding stock then using it will add recoil comp (1). Takes a ready weapon action to fold/unfold.

Scopes can only be used when a rifle/shotgun is shouldered. Shouldering the weapon has no discernable disadvantages (I can see why this is the case just sitting here). Therefore only a fool uses an AR at their waist..

Anything else I need to think about?

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Thistledown]

Not sure here, buut I'd think that firing a shotgun and maybe even a rifle without it braced on your shoulder should have a strength or body check of some kind not to break your arm.

[Phaeton]

Nah. If that were the case, more shotguns would have shoulder stocks of some sort, instead of just a pistol grip.

[Zeel De Mort]

Well, the Franchi SPAS has a folding stock which provides 1 point of RC when in use. Whereas, you'd assume, many other shotguns have a rigid stock - yet they get no RC for it (unless you add shock pads). Make sense? No, not really. :)

[Austere Emancipa...]

Yup, shotguns should definitely not get any RC from stocks of any kind, and hefty penalties for firing without a stock.

[Phaeton]

But then why are so many shotguns made with only pistol grips and no stocks?

[TinkerGnome]

Presumbaly the two hand type grasp used with the pistol grip shotty might compensate for the lack of a stock.

[Phaeton]

That makes sense...But what about entry-length shotguns?

[Austere Emancipa...]

I thought you were kidding at first, Phaeton.

Hardly any shotguns are made with only pistol grips and no stocks. You've just seen some really weird ones lately, like the Serbu Super Shorty and the Mag-7 or whatever. Those represent an insignificant majority. Browse through here, and you'll see that the stockless shotguns are mostly entry and extreme CQB weapons, where accuracy, range or hurt wrists don't mean much.

Firing those very short guns that are designed to be fired stockless, I'd only give a +2 TN modifier. Double recoil certainly. Something like the Mag-7 which is underpowered and well balanced I might only give a +1 TN to, like I might when firing an MP5K or something.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: May 23 2004, 01:39 AM

[Austere Emancipa...]

Come to think of it, maybe the advantages and disadvantages of stockless shotguns would best be represented by doing something like halving ranges and maximum Take Aims, doubling recoil, and allowing higher concealability. Basically, if you're expecting to only fire the shotgun at under 5 meters, quickly but not a lot, then you might as well take advantage of the higher concealability and lower weight. Or perhaps just halve ranges beyond Short.

Still, I guess that goes into the "too much realism" territory.

[Crusher Bob]

As for stockless shotguns, every guard in front of every Mcdonalds in the Philippines has one. So they're pretty common in some parts of the world.

[edit]
I'm not a big fan of halving range, since it would mean that sawing the stock off your shotgun would somehow slow the projectiles down

fleeing pc1: Hurrry take cover, were still in range.
fleeing pc2: hehe, nope I sawed their stocks off.

Leaving at +2 recoil for +1 or two concealabity is probably the way to go.
Assuming a 'standard' shotgun would be conceal two, sawing the stock off and the barrel down would give you say... conceal 4 and around 8S...
[/edit]

[Phaeton]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[TinkerGnome]

Don't halve ranges. Just make it use heavy pistol ranges (which is one of the side effects of sawing off a barrel, anyway). Not being a shotgun shooting expert, I'd be inclined to let someone using a pistol grip shotgun with two hands (ie, either a pump action shotgun or one with a foregrip) have no penalty to their shots. If you want to fire one with just one hand, however, there's a standard +2 TN penalty for doing so, just like any other weapon (unless you're a troll).

[mcb]

As long as were talking real life I know several guys that I shoot skeet with that can shoot quite well without mounting the gun. I have heard of a few that have shoot perfect 25 of 25 round of skeet from the hip. I have even seen a guy, that for kicks, with shoot a round of skeet with an 870 pump gun and hold the gun upside down and never mound the gun to his shoulder. He manages the doubles this way also. He does not shoot perfect rounds that way but manages to shoot around 20 of 25 birds.

I personally think that high skill level should have a factor in recoil compensation. I am not a big guy about 6’1” and 190lbs and have shot a half a box of 416 Rigby in one session and had no bruising and almost no soreness after the experience. I shoot a lot and I pretty sure the experience is the best way to deal with recoil. I have taken an inexperience shooter to the range and after one round of trap (25 shots with 12 target loads) they were already showing bruising. Absorbing and controlling heavy recoil is more skill and proper position than strength or gadgets on the weapon. Automatic actions and good muzzle breaks can help I believe skill is just a big a factor.

I not sure if I have seen it in Shadowrun one common way with shotguns and heavy caliber rifles to help control recoil is mercury filled weights that mount on the end of the magazine cap or are put in the stock of a shotgun or heavy caliber rifle. It does not reduce the recoil but really spread out the recoil impulse reduce the felt recoil. They work somewhat…

Ramblings
mcb

[Arethusa]

I've considered recoil comp per skill. It got somewhat shot down (some argue that it's basically just factoring skill level onto skill level, which is redundant and kind of silly). Personally, I'm still not sure where I stand on it.

[Austere Emancipa...]

I'm one of those in the "redundant and kind of silly" camp. If you throw 18 dice, you're going to hit things even with a high TN. If you throw 4 dice, you won't reliably once you hit 6+ TNs.

[Kagetenshi]

[Phaeton]

:rotfl: