I'm trying to reconcile the way that stocks (especially folding/retractable ones) work in SR (stupid of me, I know).

The way I reason it is...

If a handgun (pistol or SMG style) has a folding stock it may be fired from the shoulder, the stock giving 1RC. The implication is that rifle style weapons (with fixed stock) should always get 1RC when shouldered. Further, shock pads provide another level of RC, but can only be put on fixed stocks.

A rifle/shotgun with a folding stock only gets that benefit when the stock is extended (when folded the benefit is better concealability).

In order to use a scope on a rifle it's required that a gun be shouldered.

Does all this sound reasonable?

Should there be a penalty for using a weapon shouldered? (Possibly something like a +1 for perception tests). It should be a fairly simple matter for a player to note how he normally handles his weapon (any double entendre is purely in your imagination) and then specify if varying.

I'm not interested in major rule changes (or how things work IRL) particularly, but just in making sense of this - looking through BBB and CC sometimes a folding stock adds RC, other times it adds/removes conc, so I'd quite like a quick, simple ruling.

I'm also assuming that concealability for listed weapons is the maximum - if something is listed as conc.3 with a folding stock then it's actually 2 with it unfolded - is this a good assumption?

I would assume that the larger rounds fired by rifles mean there's more recoil, and the stock, combined with the mass of the rifle, are what makes it so there's no penalty in that situation. That's just a guess, but it makes the whole thing work under current rules.

JaronK

I like the idea - in that case, shouldn't there be a penalty for shooting rifle-style weapons without the stock in use (maybe add 1 to recoil penalties)?

There should always be a penalty for shooting a long arm without using the stock.

I personally went with a slightly modified version of JaronK's reasoning. I have no idea what types of weapons stocks give Recoil Compensation to, because I think I've never used the canon rules for that.

I agree with JaronK's reasoning. Since the rules don't provide a RC benefit from a rifle's fixed stock, I explain it the way he does.

In my game I'd like to start enforcing the <Simple Action> to get a folding stock or retractable stock into position, in order to get the 1 point of recoil compensation. We haven't done it so far, mostly because of the mental energy involved.

Point taken about RL...

What I *really* meant was that I'm happy to keep the rules pretty much as is but trying to fit the mechanic for this into them. Basically I don't want a huge discussion about how things don't really work like that and I ought to change every rule in the book to make something realistic.

In terms of SR mechanics then...

Rifles/Shotguns need to be shouldered and use a stock or there is a penalty (AE - are you suggesting a TN mod rather than recoil penalty?). If such as weapon has a folding/retractable/whatever stock then it takes a ready weapon action to unfold and (presumably) lock into place.

If a handgun has a folding stock then using it will add recoil comp (1). Takes a ready weapon action to fold/unfold.

Scopes can only be used when a rifle/shotgun is shouldered. Shouldering the weapon has no discernable disadvantages (I can see why this is the case just sitting here). Therefore only a fool uses an AR at their waist..

Anything else I need to think about?

Not sure here, buut I'd think that firing a shotgun and maybe even a rifle without it braced on your shoulder should have a strength or body check of some kind not to break your arm.

Nah. If that were the case, more shotguns would have shoulder stocks of some sort, instead of just a pistol grip.

Well, the Franchi SPAS has a folding stock which provides 1 point of RC when in use. Whereas, you'd assume, many other shotguns have a rigid stock - yet they get no RC for it (unless you add shock pads). Make sense? No, not really.

Yup, shotguns should definitely not get any RC from stocks of any kind, and hefty penalties for firing without a stock.

But then why are so many shotguns made with only pistol grips and no stocks?

Presumbaly the two hand type grasp used with the pistol grip shotty might compensate for the lack of a stock.

That makes sense...But what about entry-length shotguns?

I thought you were kidding at first, Phaeton.

Hardly any shotguns are made with only pistol grips and no stocks. You've just seen some really weird ones lately, like the Serbu Super Shorty and the Mag-7 or whatever. Those represent an insignificant majority. Browse through here, and you'll see that the stockless shotguns are mostly entry and extreme CQB weapons, where accuracy, range or hurt wrists don't mean much.

Firing those very short guns that are designed to be fired stockless, I'd only give a +2 TN modifier. Double recoil certainly. Something like the Mag-7 which is underpowered and well balanced I might only give a +1 TN to, like I might when firing an MP5K or something.

Come to think of it, maybe the advantages and disadvantages of stockless shotguns would best be represented by doing something like halving ranges and maximum Take Aims, doubling recoil, and allowing higher concealability. Basically, if you're expecting to only fire the shotgun at under 5 meters, quickly but not a lot, then you might as well take advantage of the higher concealability and lower weight. Or perhaps just halve ranges beyond Short.

Still, I guess that goes into the "too much realism" territory.

As for stockless shotguns, every guard in front of every Mcdonalds in the Philippines has one. So they're pretty common in some parts of the world.

[edit]
I'm not a big fan of halving range, since it would mean that sawing the stock off your shotgun would somehow slow the projectiles down

fleeing pc1: Hurrry take cover, were still in range.
fleeing pc2: hehe, nope I sawed their stocks off.

Leaving at +2 recoil for +1 or two concealabity is probably the way to go.
Assuming a 'standard' shotgun would be conceal two, sawing the stock off and the barrel down would give you say... conceal 4 and around 8S...
[/edit]

Don't halve ranges. Just make it use heavy pistol ranges (which is one of the side effects of sawing off a barrel, anyway). Not being a shotgun shooting expert, I'd be inclined to let someone using a pistol grip shotgun with two hands (ie, either a pump action shotgun or one with a foregrip) have no penalty to their shots. If you want to fire one with just one hand, however, there's a standard +2 TN penalty for doing so, just like any other weapon (unless you're a troll).

As long as were talking real life I know several guys that I shoot skeet with that can shoot quite well without mounting the gun. I have heard of a few that have shoot perfect 25 of 25 round of skeet from the hip. I have even seen a guy, that for kicks, with shoot a round of skeet with an 870 pump gun and hold the gun upside down and never mound the gun to his shoulder. He manages the doubles this way also. He does not shoot perfect rounds that way but manages to shoot around 20 of 25 birds.

I personally think that high skill level should have a factor in recoil compensation. I am not a big guy about 6’1” and 190lbs and have shot a half a box of 416 Rigby in one session and had no bruising and almost no soreness after the experience. I shoot a lot and I pretty sure the experience is the best way to deal with recoil. I have taken an inexperience shooter to the range and after one round of trap (25 shots with 12 target loads) they were already showing bruising. Absorbing and controlling heavy recoil is more skill and proper position than strength or gadgets on the weapon. Automatic actions and good muzzle breaks can help I believe skill is just a big a factor.

I not sure if I have seen it in Shadowrun one common way with shotguns and heavy caliber rifles to help control recoil is mercury filled weights that mount on the end of the magazine cap or are put in the stock of a shotgun or heavy caliber rifle. It does not reduce the recoil but really spread out the recoil impulse reduce the felt recoil. They work somewhat…

Ramblings
mcb

I've considered recoil comp per skill. It got somewhat shot down (some argue that it's basically just factoring skill level onto skill level, which is redundant and kind of silly). Personally, I'm still not sure where I stand on it.

I'm one of those in the "redundant and kind of silly" camp. If you throw 18 dice, you're going to hit things even with a high TN. If you throw 4 dice, you won't reliably once you hit 6+ TNs.

Folding stocks are arguably *worse* than conventional stocks (because they're built to be foldable more than they're built to be comfortable), and so I see no reason to give a player a bonus for using a folding stock but not one for using a conventional stock.

In my games, firing a gun with a stock (folding or not) set into your shoulder gets you 1 point of RC. Firing one with a stock and a shock pad gets you 2 points of RC. Firing from the hip gives you no RC (unless it's got a hip brace) AND throws on a +2 modifier to hit.

Note, you can "shoulder" a pistol grip shotgun, after a fashion. While you can't actually set a stock into your shoulder to reduce recoil (since there isn't one), you can still hold it at a level so that you can use the sights, and therefore avoid the +2 modifier. The main reason for using a pistol grip on a shotgun rather than a stock is to make it shorter and more maneuverable.

I've fired shotguns from the shoulder and the hip, using both conventional stocks and pistol grips, and have fired a few shots with only one arm. While it's certainly possible to hit things from the hip, it's just not as easy as using the sights, hence the +2. I personally prefer full stocks enormously, and the best of both worlds involves a combined stock... shoulder stock allowing you to put it to your shoulder to use it normally, with a pistol grip allowing you to hang on a little better, and carry it slung in front or unslung entirely a little easier.

One-handed fire with a shotgun, unless you *have* to, is a waste of time. The gun kicks up and back, hard, you can't cycle the pump without bringing it back to you, and holding a shotgun out at arm's length isn't easy (it's 8-odd pounds of metal, folks). Even shouldered, without one hand on the forend to mitigate recoil, your control of the gun is pretty reduced... if i were to house-rule this, I'd say firing a shotgun with one hand would either double your recoil modifier, or reduce your effective rate of fire to SS.

I work in a munitions storage and maintenance facility, and we're all required to be qualified on Mossbergs and 9mm. It always struck me as kinda amusing that, at qualification, 1 of the three firing positions they teach you is from the hip. I guess the USAF wants us to look cool while we defend the big stuff.

edit: We use 500s, fixed stock, no pistol grip.

A big part of combat is looking cool.

~J

...before you die.

Not just before you die; you gotta look cool after you die too.

~J

In an indoor, close quarters or similar situation where ranges are very short firing from the hip has a few advantages. With the stock pinched between hip and arm you effective shortened the weapon for easier handling in close quarters. From the hip a pump gun can be cycled faster than from the shoulder. From the hip firing on the move is easier If you can't hit a metahuman size target at 15 yards or less without mounting a shotgun, or any long arm, to your shoulder you probably should not be in that situation. And its not always necessary to hit the target if your close enough with your shots to make them keep there head down until you can get in a better position. Shadowrun does a poor job of cover fire.

Many of the trench shotgun from WWI had no sear disconnect. This meant that you could hold the trigger down and pump the gun firing very fast. The instant the bolt locked into battery the hammer would fall. I know the Winchester 97 was that way and I believe the Remington model 10 was that way also. With a little practice you can easily out run the rate of fire of a modern gas operated shotgun with a Winchester 97.

I'm pretty sure the old Ithacas can be slam-fired, too.

mcb's right... the moment you find yourself in a really tight environment (moving through a door in a house, getting between some boxes in a warehouse, or whatever you want to imagine this as), moving around with a 3 foot long gun shouldered and ready gets a little hard. It also means that, as you come around a corner (say, into a room), you've got all three feet of your weapon entering the room before you can see everything in it... an assailant to one side or another of the door can grab the barrel of the gun and get control of it. Firing from the hip has it's uses, and knowing how to use the gun that way is an important skill... it's just not the most effective stance in a lot of situations.

Hasaku: I grew up on a Mossberg 500A Mariner (heavier barrel, salt-water resistant), and I'm spoiled Love those guns.

Good advice, but they never tell us the reason for any of this. Makes sense now that I think how cramped it is at work.

I'm pretty sure that in the advanced combat section of the CC it states how weapons can be fired with no penalty. For long arms that means two hands shouldered and pistols at eye level. No one who has to kill people professionally would shoot any other way unless they had no choice. Hell, even a SAW is shouldered.

How about the right tool for the right job? I personally would not take a shotgun into CQB. I know teams do, mainly for opening doors, and then they switch weapons.

A SMG or a Carbine would be a much better choice for Close Quarters Battle.

But a lot of it is also personal preference.

A shotgun with a shorty stock and short barrel would be just as wieldable in a CQB as a carbine. A rookie with a shotgun may be less tempted to spray and pray with a pump or semi-auto shotgun then a carbine. Again the situation and personal preference may dictate one way or the other.

Also keep in mind that while rate of fire is a liability in CQB, a trained operator can move that thing really quite quickly. And, of course, there are gas operated shotguns like the M4.

If you're packing shot rounds and adjust the choke properly, you won't have to reload at all.

~J

Remember:

• CQB can and very, very often does include people or other things you don't want to hit.
• Shotguns are not area saturation weapons and SR's variable choke is positively psychotic.

The other factor to take into account for shooting from the hip is smartguns - you don't have to see where your gun is pointing, you only need the target in your field of vision - certainly smartlinked pistols and SMGs should be fired this way with no penalties whatsoever.

I always figured the -2 for the smartlink sort of represented the ease of doing things like firing from the hip. +2 for from the hip, -2 for the smartlink... you're just as good from the hip as someone else is from the shoulder. Not bad, in all honesty... and if it's a SL2, you're still better on called shots.

For "from the hip" shooting, first shot no penalties, this is the classic quick-draw+fire methodology, but the subsequent shot would be double recoil penalty if you don't move your arm (consider a simple action)

mine is also a 30" full choke... Was my great great grandfathers, so there will be no cutting down of this gun! I have shot skeet with it, but the full choke makes it kinda hard, shoots beutifully though.

-Mike R.