What happened to Magic?, Catching up with the changes to the magic rules over the years... Options

[Ka_ge2020]

I've had a Shadowrun conversion on the books since the beginning of time, but I've finally been motivated to get it finished before the sun goes supernova. In so doing, I was taking a gander at SR5 as the "latest and greatest" and came across its breakdown of magic users. One thing gave me pause and now I'm wondering about other changes. (That and I'm only referencing the rules for conversion and not cross-referencing them for actual play).

Anyway, my memory of Mystic Adepts were that you could do Sorcery and could sacrifice some of your Magic Rating for that so that you could have Adept power points. Thus, you could cast and get "physad busy, but you wouldn't be as good as the specialists in their niche/specialty.

In reading through SR5, it seemed to be referencing them having the full six (6) in Magic, but they could also buy Adept PPs for 5 Karma. Presumably there was a limit on that latter, but still that seemed like a big and powerful change despite only having two of the other types of magical skill (rather than three) and not being able to travel on the astral.

True, or am I missing something?

* * *

I was glad to see that Ritual Magic gets a look-in but also disappointed that it seemed so... generic? Could someone help me see the advantages other than bypassing limitations on conjuration? Is there a bunch of Tradition-specific rituals buried in a sourcebook that I just don't have to hand or haven't had the time to read through it yet?

* * *

Any other big changes from the last time that I actually played (SR2)?

(As an example of how that experience feeds back into the 'conversion/translation', I wanted to make sure that summoning always required ritual space. My memory of Shaman was that they could bypass this for Spirits...)

[Kagetenshi]

The big one is no grounding. I could give you some more changes between SR2 and SR3, but did not make the jump to SR4 and later so someone else will need to fill you in there—magic changed quite a bit in SR4 onwards.

~J

[JanessaVR]

Personally, I'm still on SR4 (with a few bits of SR5 here and there). Though, yes, I'd say the big one is no Grounding anymore.

Kagetenshi also demonstrates that most of us here have picked a favorite edition and stuck with it. I may be outnumbered by the all the SR3 people, but I'm still holding up my "4E 4EVER" sign. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

Personally, I'm still on SR4 (with a few bits of SR5 here and there). Though, yes, I'd say the big one is no Grounding anymore.

Kagetenshi also demonstrates that most of us here have picked a favorite edition and stuck with it. I may be outnumbered by the all the SR3 people, but I'm still holding up my "4E 4EVER" sign. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hey, I swing both ways. 3 or 4, I'm easy.

[Tecumseh]

I'll try to go through one by one:

In reading through SR5, it seemed to be referencing them having the full six (6) in Magic, but they could also buy Adept PPs for 5 Karma. Presumably there was a limit on that latter, but still that seemed like a big and powerful change despite only having two of the other types of magical skill (rather than three) and not being able to travel on the astral.

True, or am I missing something?

This is true. Mystic adepts are very potent in 5th Edition. I would say that the broad consensus is "too potent" since almost every single character concept you can come up will be better if it's a mystic adept. Rigger, decker, anything that a mundane would generally do, mystic adepts can do better. This was an overcorrection from 4th Edition, when mystic adepts were very suboptimal. The superiority of mystics adepts one of the primary complaints behind the Magicrun accusation (which is not inaccurate, and I say that as someone who primarily plays Awakened characters).

Your limit for how many Adept PPs you can purchase is your Magic rating. The official rule is that you can only purchase these at chargen, not after, but some GMs house rule that.

I was glad to see that Ritual Magic gets a look-in but also disappointed that it seemed so... generic? Could someone help me see the advantages other than bypassing limitations on conjuration? Is there a bunch of Tradition-specific rituals buried in a sourcebook that I just don't have to hand or haven't had the time to read through it yet?

Most PCs do not need ritual magic. It has some interesting uses but it is very firmly in the "nice to have" category, definitely not "need to have". I tell players not to bother with it.

Any other big changes from the last time that I actually played (SR2)?

One of the biggest changes is your tradition matters much less than it used to. There was a wide divide between hermetics and shaman in 1E-3E, but that divide largely disappeared in 4E.

Hermetics can now summon anywhere and everywhere, like a shaman used to, and without the need for reagents or other summoning supplies. Shamen can now summon whatever they want regardless of domain. The traditions have slightly different lists of what types of spirits they can summon but the lists now largely overlap instead of being mutually exclusive (e.g. both now get elementals). Either tradition can get a "mentor spirit" as a Positive Quality, which are the equivalent of the totems that shamen used to get. Both use "magical lodges" which are the equivalent of medicine lodges (for shamen) and hermetic libraries (for hermetics).

They also use a different attribute to soak drain: hermetics use Logic while shamen use Charisma. These attributes are added to Willpower when rolling the drain resistance test.

Compared to the earlier editions, I would call the changes in summoning/conjuring the greatest. There are differences in spellcasting too. I'm rusty on my 2E/3E but I generally remember spellcasting falling into two categories: 1) Imma gonna shoot magical spitwads at you that won't do much unless I peg you right in the eye, but at least I won't get a headache from drain, and 2) Imma gonna blow your head off, but it's going to KO me too. Spellcasting is now something that most magicians can do productively each round as their default action and have it be effective. Magicians now know a spell at every Force, rather than having to learn a single spell multiple times at different Force levels. Drain is now a function of the Force level selected, which is chosen at the time of casting.

And, as the others said, there's no grounding.

Those are the high-level changes that should represent the changes between the core rulebooks reasonably well. We won't get into all the new traditions and wrinkles that they introduced in other sourcebooks.

[Ka_ge2020]

First, thanks for all the (swift) replies. Very much appreciated. Forgive any typos--I've got a broken hand in a cast and suffice to say that the laptop keyboard is not the most fun typing experience at the moment.

The big one is no grounding.

That one I had caught. I always thought that it, and the "fix", weren't great implementations in the rules. If I bother going into that level of detail, methinks that I'm going to borrow from Cryptomancer.

I could give you some more changes between SR2 and SR3, but did not make the jump to SR4 and later so someone else will need to fill you in there—magic changed quite a bit in SR4 onwards.

I'm glad that as, a child of SR2 who is looking at SR5 for reference, that I came here to ask for the expertise of others!

Personally, I'm still on SR4 (with a few bits of SR5 here and there). Though, yes, I'd say the big one is no Grounding anymore.

To be fair, I'm just trying to capture the best bits of them. Err, to my own definition of "best" of course.

This was an overcorrection from 4th Edition, when mystic adepts were very suboptimal.

It's good to have that confirmed. My gut is to have them go back to an MR of 6 and then selecting how much they want as Sorcery/magic focused and how much Adept focused. Then let the rest shake out in Initiation. That seems to cover the bases.

Of course, it will be fun playing that out in the Fourth Age but there you have it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Feel fre to ignore this. It's something that I'm doing as part of my return to Shadowrun. Alas it was much easier figuring out spell matrices in Fudge than it is in a more crunchy system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

Most PCs do not need ritual magic. It has some interesting uses but it is very firmly in the "nice to have" category, definitely not "need to have". I tell players not to bother with it.

As an "at the table" thing I can understand that.

At my own table, there's only one exception to the notion that RM is the "secret sauce" to the universe: Ritual Magic is how one summons elementals and spirits. This is something that I considered to be "borken" from 2E with respect to Shaman over Hermetics (too much abuse from a Cat Shaman back in the day).

(I'm still trying to figure out what "Shaman" stand given the abuse that Shadowrun in general did to them from an anthropological perspective.)

Hermetics can now summon anywhere and everywhere, like a shaman used to, and without the need for reagents or other summoning supplies. Shamen can now summon whatever they want regardless of domain.

Yeah, that's going to be something that I ignore: it's still ritual magic, at my table, and should be treated as such (if for no other reason than it once again reasserts the abuse given to "shaman" in Shadowrun).

In my own brain, I've started referring to what "Shaman" used to be as "Spirit Sworn" as a more generic concept to disentangle them from the anthropological "shaman " and how that might play out in the setting.

With that said, and again, I'm truly appreciating the update.

Magicians now know a spell at every Force, rather than having to learn a single spell multiple times at different Force levels. Drain is now a function of the Force level selected, which is chosen at the time of casting.

This will making the jarring sensation of a other system feel a little bit less, errr, jarring. So cool.

Thank y'all. This is getting me re-stoked about the setting, something that has been missing while I've been focused on mechanical things.

[Nath]

Another difference between SR1/SR2/SR3 and SR4/SR5/SR6 is the way damage are dealt, which affects Drain. Instead of L/M/S/F range, resisted with TN Force/2, since SR4 you get a number of boxes equals to Force/2+modifier, and, as for everything else, TN for the Resistance Test is always 5.

So while a Force 10F Manaball had decent chance of leaving the caster dead from Drain in SR3, a quite similar F10 manaball would likely result in "only" 4 boxes of Physical Damage in SR4. In my experience (YMMV), casters and summoners suffer a lot less from Drain since SR4.

[Ka_ge2020]

Just a drive-by thought, one of the "magic system design" rules, at least when it comes to having multiple types of magic, is to ensure that a secondary (etc.) system just doesn't repeat the same stuff that the other one does. I SR5, at least, the ritual spells kinda feel like they cover a lot of the same territory.

Now, with that said, there does need to be some crossover, right? The initial thing that I remember about it from SR2 was it was basically the way that THEY got to you when you broke the law and used magic without, you know, following the rules. One imagines curses etc.

So, outside of the--what?--50 ritual spells that seemed a little bit...off... what would you do with Ritual Magic to make it more useful to PCs?

Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean reinventing the wheel. Protecting hearth and home (expanded protection spells) makes obvious sense, but they kind of refer to the ritual magic itself (e.g., protecting ritual space). You have the curses (etc.) above, or whatever it is that you would do to magical miscreants if, say, you happen to be in the Lord Protector's office in Blighty. And, of course, you've got the mega-apocalyptic stuff ala the Great Ghost Dance.

If we exclude the mega-apocalyptic stuff, and the "protect yourself" for a longer term stuff, where else would you go? Would you make it different for the various Traditions?
* * *

Hoping to keep the discussion going for the sake of it, even if I'll personally be taking the results into another game system. (Just as everyone has their preferred edition of SR, so do I--it just happens to be in GURPS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

* * *

For reference, this is a quick list with basic description that I put together for a friend that is helping me out in the aforementioned crunchy system. This is for those that, as above, didn't make it up the rungs (as it were) to SR5. Note: If something reads like a note to self, then it is. (Especially the bits about Pattern. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

• Curse — Curse with Illusions.
• Prodigal Spell — Cast a combat spell out of LOS.
• Remote Sensing — Detection spells at a distance.
• Ward — Astral barrier.
• Circle of Protection — Astral and physical barrier.
• Circle of Healing — Cast healing on people within the circle (i.e., more than one subject at a time).
• Renascence — Maintains Area Manipulation spell.
• Watcher — Creates small spirit bound to the magic-user that are used for observation/watching.
• Homonculus — Create a small servant being (low intelligence).
Shadowrun V/VI Rituals (Grimoire)
• Aspect Mana Line — Change the mana Aspect of a ley line for a short distance.
• Alarm Ward — Lets the caster(s) know when an astral form or spell crosses the area that is warded.
• All Conjuration (Minion) — Conjure ally spirit.
• Astral Doppelganger — Changes the aura of an individual in the ritual to that of someone that the ritual leader has assensed.
• Atonement — Forgiveness of past transgressions (takes the person to the Dweller for judgement and punishment).
• Attune Animal (Adept) — Adepts can bond with a mundane, non-sapient creature.
• Attune Item (Adept) — Attunes mundane item (not foci etc.) to an Adept. Can be enhanced through Imbue Item (ritual).
• Augury and Sortilege — Divination themed to the tradition of the magic-user (portents).
• Blood Bond (Blood Magic) — Bond magic-user to genetically-related subject.
• Blood Rite (Blood Magic) — Acts like Sacrifice metamagic, i.e. collects blood magic energy for the purposes of other rituals.
• Blood Sight (Blood Magic) — Allows magic-user to determine characteristics etc. of someone that led blood sample behind.
• Calling (Spirit Type) — Call forth a spirit that is not otherwise appropriate for the magic-users Tradition.
• Charged Ward — Astral ward that “attacks back” when crossed.
• Circle of Cleansing — Weave energy to counteract the effects of a positive background count.
• Death Mark — Allows magic-user to follow the trace from a corpse back to their point of death.
• Dispersion Circle — Reduces the time it takes for alchemical preparations to ‘cook’.
• Door Ward — A ward specifically over a door (ref: good luck horseshoe etc.).
• Empower (Adept) — Lend an Adept Power to an attuned animal.
• Temporary Transfer (Adept) — Sort of like Empower, except the power is not available when transferred.
• Qi Marked (Adept) — Gives animal companion their own version of Adept Powers.
• Grave Binding — Binds a corpse to the grave to prevent any magical shenanigans (i.e. Necromancy).
• Group Bond — Forms a magical group of magic-users; predicate for an Initiate Group (from ye olden days).
• Imbue Item — Adds trait to bonded item. (Sounds like Pattern Item—becomes significant to the individual, acquires increased magical power etc.).
• Remove Traits — Remove the aforementioned traits. Probably discard this one.
• Kything — Forces astral beings to become visible.
• Far Sensing — Expand ability to sense magic to an increased area.
• Leeching — Great geomantic ritual that draws mana to the ritual circle, but does so by creating mana ebbs.
• Ley Sight — See and hear from any point within the aspected domain of a mana line, except those that are blocked by wards.
• Light of Dharma — Channel inner peace outwardly to create calm—physical, mental, and spiritual.
• Living Vessel Preparation — Prepare living host to become a vessel for a spirit.
• Manifest Sha — Temporarily disrupt the power of a mana line or aspected energies of background count.
• Masking Ward — Conceals magical activity on the astral plane, but is “transparent” so that it cannot be seen by astral observers.
• Obfuscating Ward — Similar to Masking Ward but designed to block Detection spells.
• Polarized Ward — As basic ward, but acts like a one way mirror.
• Recharge Reagents — Recharge reagents by taping into mana line/pool.
• Smudging — Removes astral imprints and otherwise cleanses an area; also reduces imprint for the purposes of Psychometry.
• Spirit Pact — Enter into pact with a spirit to reduce strain on their use of magic.
• Summon Great Form Spirit — Instill more power into spirit. If combined with Sacrifice and Invocation (metamagics) can summon a Great Form Blood Spirit.
• Trap Ward — Once triggered, degrades into physical barrier.
• Whisper of Bones — Necromancer can gain information from dead individual.

[pbangarth]

Something I didn't notice being discussed is the change between SR3 and SR4/4A in background count.

In SR4, there is a much broader discussion of the nature of background count, going from ebbs to warps. Lots of space there to have fun story lines.

As well, maybe more pertinent to PCs, is the broader range of affected entities. In SR3, mostly Magic levels and target numbers are affected, but in SR4/4A ratings of devices like Foci are affected as well. My SR3 shaman, with a nice big Focus holding a perniciously hard spell to cast at the appropriate level, is not afraid to walk into a cathedral, but in SR4 he would avoid such a place entirely.

Yes, yes, there are more dice in SR4 to cast that spell, but still.

[Kagetenshi]

In SR3 a church would be +3 TN, +1TN to Drain, which… how many dice are being subtracted in SR4? If it’s fewer than six plus the focus penalty I’m pretty sure the SR3 mage has more to worry about, as even the most generous intervals (TN6 -> TN9 or the like) are going to cut your expected successes by a third and the rate goes up fast.

SR3 doesn’t hit Foci because it doesn’t need to, the TN takes care of that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

~J

[pbangarth]

In SR3 a church would be +3 TN, +1TN to Drain, which… how many dice are being subtracted in SR4? If it’s fewer than six plus the focus penalty I’m pretty sure the SR3 mage has more to worry about, as even the most generous intervals (TN6 -> TN9 or the like) are going to cut your expected successes by a third and the rate goes up fast.

SR3 doesn’t hit Foci because it doesn’t need to, the TN takes care of that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

~J

In my example (SR3), the shaman has a F4 Sustaining Focus sustaining a F4 Increase Attribute (Willpower) spell. His Willpower is 8 (yeah, yeah, I know*), so his target for the spell is 8. He has Spellcasting 6 and a Totem bonus of 2 for 8 dice with which he would need to roll 4 8s to replenish the Focus fully. This would probably take a long time to be accomplished in-game.

In SR3, he can walk into a charnel house, suffer target number negatives, but keep the Focus running. In SR4, going into the above-mentioned church, the Focus drops in rating, the spell fails, and he has to recast it. Now, in SR4, he has his Magic + Spellcasting + Mentor Spirit for 14 dice, but that still will take some trying to get 4 8s.

Now for the Kombat Mage who wants to go first, a F1 Increase Reflexes +3 spell in a F1 Sustaining Focus, with a target of her Reaction, would not be as difficult an issue to replenish.

*

[ Spoiler ]

The in-game rationale is that The GM started the campaign with the PC working for a biotech firm that needed him to cast spells continually during his shift, for which suffering Drain was a drain on profits, so they got the appropriate credentials and licenses for him. The OOC reason is the player cried "Please, please,please Mr. GM," *tugs on the GMs pant leg* " I really, really wanna try this. Please, please, please!???"

And I'm sure the GM is waiting with bated breath for a good, story-enhancing way to hit that Focus. I'm considering how to retool once that happens. Given what has been going on in-game, the shaman might go for increasing Charisma instead, because summoning spirits has been useful and painful. In the meantime, careful use of appropriate Force spells has allowed the shaman to be an "Energizer Bunny" commercial candidate.

[Ka_ge2020]

Something I didn't notice being discussed is the change between SR3 and SR4/4A in background count.

This actually raises an interesting point, at least for me. What do you do when, locally or broadly, the mana... goes away?

It's a bit of an aside, I was thinking about mana spikes and, more obviously, their opposite (especially when they're localised).

[Tecumseh]

In 5E the background count can represent lower-than-normal mana levels. These are generally called mana ebbs (just a little less than normal) or mana voids (a lot less than usual). These are represented by a negative background count, while an aspected background count is represented by a positive integer.

The mechanical effects of a negative background count are largely identical to an aspected one, so -2 has the same effect as +2. (Unless the +2 is aspected to your finger-wiggler in some way, in which case the background count becomes a positive modifier. The ebbs and voids are always negative modifiers.)

[Kagetenshi]

I always liked the implication in SR3 that space was actually full of Mana, just catastrophically warped and deranged, because it gave another reason why we cannot beatt he Horrors.

~J

[JanessaVR]

I always liked the implication in SR3 that space was actually full of Mana, just catastrophically warped and deranged, because it gave another reason why we cannot beatt he Horrors.

I definitely prefer 4E's version of space as mana void. That makes more sense given mana's connection to life and the biosphere.

Empty Space = No Mana

[Cochise]

I definitely prefer 4E's version of space as mana void. That makes more sense given mana's connection to life and the biosphere.

Well, the "problem" there is that "Mana" in SR3 (and arguably in 1st and 2nd as well, when considering Tom Dowd's short story Hunter and Prey) wasn't strictly connected to life and the biosphere but rather something that originated from the Metaplanes (including the one where the Horrors originate from) and washed through the Physical plane and then onto the Astral Plane. Life and Biosphere(s) just made Mana more stable / safer to access. So ...

Empty Space = No Mana

... this equation isn't actually true under SR1 to 3 metaphysics.

[JanessaVR]

I don't think one short story should be considered the end-all, be-all of SR3 metaphysics. Especially when the SR3 Core Rules explicitly backs up my position. (Underlines are by me.)

Page 158
The Awakened world is permeated by mana, the energy of magic. Mana is invisible and intangible. It cannot be detected, measured or influenced by machines, only living beings. Mana is sensitive to emotion and responds to the will of the Awakened.

Page 161
It [the Astral Plane] is always there, right next door, just a step sideways. It thrives on life, and so emotion, thought, and spirit are emphasized on the astral. Without life, there is no astral space; and so without a thriving gaiasphere to support it, the astral plane does not extend into space.

[Kagetenshi]

Space is virtually devoid of life, which distorts the mana field and raises the back-ground count to mana warp levels. The astral plane outside the atmosphere is a single vast void, stretching out into infinity.

Emphasis added. In space there is a mana field, the absence of life distorts it. Life does not create it.

(And consequently we can’t just retreat into space to beatt he Horrors.)

~J

[JanessaVR]

Ugh. That is just contradictory. Yet another reason I prefer 4E, where this was all cleaned up and unified.

EDIT:

To clarify, these are mutually exclusive statements. If the Core Rules says "the astral plane does not extend into space" but Magic In The Shadows says "The astral plane outside the atmosphere is a single vast void, stretching out into infinity," then that's a real problem. They can't both be true.

[Ka_ge2020]

I definitely prefer 4E's version of space as mana void. That makes more sense given mana's connection to life and the biosphere.

Empty Space = No Mana

I make no claim to original thought. I agree with this as it is then default assumption for the "numbers filed off" version of the Eighth World of Shadowrun, Equinox. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Of course, that doesn't entirely help since they also have artificially-generated mana fields, and the asteroid belt that was once Earth also maintains an active mana field. O.o And all those planets out there with active mystic cycles/mana fields. Including Mars. And, you know, FTL space travel occurs through astral space through "fold shadows", or the kind of gateways that are mentioned in Slip Streams (SR5).

With that said, could someone remind me how the positive/negative modifiers work in the game when it comes to Background Count? For example, I can totally see how a reduction in the mana field would lead to lessened abilities--there just isn't enough mana to go around. But in the cases where the manafield is stronger, that doesn't inherently mean to a boost in power unless one can tap it, right?

(Hazy memories of SR2 and dealing with it conceptually in later editions.)

* * *

A related question that I have to check out the books for is how powerful is a F1 elemental and now that scales, to include Great Forms.

[Kagetenshi]

In SR3: for background count BC=1-5, all Magical Skill or astral tests get +BC TN, drain resistance tests get +BC/2 TN round down. Mana warps (BC=5-10) follow the same formulae but additionally increase Drain Damage Level by (BC-5)/2 round up, deal damage to astrally active people every combat turn (6L/7M/8S/10D/14D) and reduce effective Magic Rating (Essence for paracritters, Force for spirits) by 2/4/6/9/12.

Power site rules forthcoming.

Edit:

Mana surges are unpredictable, decreasing or increasing the Force (and also base drain calculation) of spells cast within or independently decreasing or increasing Drain DL.

Power Sites come in ratings from 1 to 5 and add their rating in dice as a kind of pool (refreshing per round) that can be used for magical skills or astral tests, as well as for Talismongering Material Gathering tests.

Aspected background count is some combination of background count, lack of background count, and possibly power site such that it affects some people some ways and others differently.

For example, the background count of a religious revival might not affect (or might serve as a power site for) worshipers performing magic at the revival, but it affects non-believers as normal background count and enemies of the religion at an even higher level. Toxic background counts are power sites for toxic shamans (p. 124) but impose normal background count penalties on the magical abilities of others. The gamemaster chooses the aspect of any particular back-ground count and its effects.

Some areas may be aspected against specific magical activities or skills. For example, the Mojave Desert is aspected against Conjuring, making any use of Conjuring Skill there more difficult—much to the satisfaction of the spirits there.

~J

[Cochise]

I don't think one short story should be considered the end-all, be-all of SR3 metaphysics.

Where exactly did I make that short story the "end-all, be-all"? That's actually a short story by Tom Dowd (the man behind 2nd Edition) and refers to the 2nd edition era (and I mentioned the story explicitly in that context).

Especially when the SR3 Core Rules explicitly backs up my position. (Underlines are by me.)

Back's up your position or shows how you manage to "misrepresent" them?

Page 158
The Awakened world is permeated by mana, the energy of magic. Mana is invisible and intangible. It cannot be detected, measured or influenced by machines, only living beings. Mana is sensitive to emotion and responds to the will of the Awakened.

This is an actual statement on metalevel a.k.a "the rules", but it doesn't actually say what you claim it says:

That explicitly says that Mana can be detected, measured and influenced by living beings only". This says nothing with regard to your claim that Mana does not exist in space. Hence, this cannot "suppport" your claim.

Page 161
It [the Astral Plane] is always there, right next door, just a step sideways. It thrives on life, and so emotion, thought, and spirit are emphasized on the astral. Without life, there is no astral space; and so without a thriving gaiasphere to support it, the astral plane does not extend into space.

Now this source has its caveats because it is written from an ingame perspective and as such doesn't necessarily tell an "objective" truth on metalevel of rules / game world (metaphysics). But unless a metalevel statement actually tells something else this source can still be used. So far so good, however, just as with your first quote this doesn't really say "Empty Space = no Mana" either:

1. The first underlined part says that the Astral Plane "thrives on life"; whatever that is supposed to mean but it doesn't say that Mana does not exist where the Astral Plane doesn't thrive. No points for you there.
2. The second part says that without life there's no (accessible) astral space, which doesn't equate with no Mana existing in the "Empty Space" of the physical world. Again no points for you.

=> Contrary to your belief and claim neither the rules nor the ingame fluff support your original claim of "no Mana in Space".

Now try remember what I wrote earlier about the flow of Mana in SR3? While the Core rules do not make any direct statements about Mana existing in Space the very same "Fluff" piece does tell us this:

Page 161
Mana, magic essence itself, flows from the metaplanes into our physical world and through it to the astral. This is not so
much a river-like, or ley-line effect, but more like the waves of an ocean. When mana pours through the physical world, it is
everywhere, touching everything—one big mana field connecting everything. It cannot be seen, tasted, or touched, but those
who are Awakened can manipulate it. It also flows through the astral, encompassing everything on the astral plane.

So unless we find a metalevel statement that makes this statement "incorrect", the Flow of Mana into the physical world - including the empty region we call "Space" - is perfectly fine thus and Mana can exist in space ... there's just no (accessible) Astral Space whereto said Mana could / would flow.

"Luckily" - as with all RPGs - there's always the chance that a supplement (like "Magic in the Shadows") adds onto the known "facts" of the game world (meta-) physics. Kagetenshi was nice enough to already quote the respective part of MitS that establishes the actual "truth" on metalevel and thus invalidates the ingame description on p. 161 of the Core rules ... but only with regards to "no life, no Astral Space" by stating that the Astral Space still exists but is simply warped to such degrees that nothing (but the most high level initiates) can truly access it without pretty much instantly dying. Still nothing that says "no Mana in space".

So, ...

Ugh. That is just contradictory.

... no, it's not so much a contradiction as establishing the actual facts that the Manual of Practical Thaumaturgy, 22nd edition didn't get quite correct as far as "no life no Astral Plane" is concerned.

Yet another reason I prefer 4E, where this was all cleaned up and unified.

Liking 4E better is your prerogative but this simply cannot be "another reason" for you, because your "reason" simply doesn't exist in the manner you think it does.

To clarify, these are mutually exclusive statements.

They are not mutually exclusive since they actually do not exist on the same level. The MitS statement is a definition on metalevel a.k.a. "the rules". The other statement is an in fiction statement that - just like Shadow Talk - may or may not represent an objective truth but certainly represents the "then" current understanding of people within the game universe ... which here was / is in part incorrect.

If the Core Rules says "the astral plane does not extend into space" but Magic In The Shadows says "The astral plane outside the atmosphere is a single vast void, stretching out into infinity," then that's a real problem. They can't both be true.

Putting aside the fact that special rules and information in updated / supplemental materials regularly invalidate rules and fluff info from earlier works (even in your favoured 4th edition) you're facing the problem that your "source" simply hasn't to be "true" in the first place as far as the rules and "actual" metaphysics of Mana in SR3 are concerned. By now I should have reasonably well demonstrated why it's actually you who is "wrong" and that there's nothing particular "wrong" with either of those two statements but one simply is "incorrect" about a detail that is actually unrelated to your original claim of "Empty Space" equalling "No Mana".

TL;DR:

1. Mana can and does exist in space in SR3 but the environment does not easily lend itself to magic use that doesn't kill the magician trying to do so.
2. The Astral Plane does exist in space in SR3 but is warped / "polluted" to such degrees that nothing with the exception of grade 7+ Initiates can actually try to acces it but would still be subject to the deadly damage they'd have to resist every few seconds that in practical terms nobody should ever try.

The actual problem of the SR3 rules concerning the Mana Warps being background count levels of 6+ with additional hindrances is that the Core rules and their original maximum level of background count 5 - with 5 supposedly being a site like Auschwitz - were later on made "absurd" by the fact that both NPCs and PCs could later create background values that exceed 5 and thus create Mana Warps (positively aspected to themselves).

[JanessaVR]

Ok, that is...the most tortured reasoning I've seen in quite time. But, whatever, you can have it. Again, just another reason I base my Shadowrun cosmology on 4E, where things are clearly and plainly spelled out.

[pbangarth]

Wouldn't it be nice if we left this issue where it is at this point?

[Kagetenshi]

But it was just starting to feel like Dumpshock again! Sure, we can’t really go back to the 2005-2006 edition wars since Doc Funk and Crimsondude are banned, but there’s a certain nostalgic je-ne-sais-quoi in the air!

~J