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[Masterofthegame]

I'm sad to say that I've been away from Shadowrun for a while. when 3E DnD came out my group wanted to try it, so I've been running a campaign for them since then.

Two weeks ago that campaign finally ended, and so I've been itching to get back to the game I love. So, off to the FLGS for everything I missed and a marathon reading session to re-familiarize myself and catch up with what's up.

Now, I have always made an effort to keep my game collection up to date, so I have picked up a few books here and there... Dragons of the 6th World, Sprawl Survival Guide, Year of the Comet, Survival of the Fittest, Shadows of Norh America.... but it seems to me that it's been a while since I've picked anything up. So, I was shocked when I went to the store and found nothing that I didn't have already.

A quick search online showed that it wasn't just a fluke, there doesn't seem to be anything particularly new. I know Shadows of Europe is supposed to be coming out, but it seems to me that they've ben talking about that forever.

So, failing finding new books I turn to the internet and the always active Shadowrun community. Netbooks, fansites, forums... anything that will help me prepare for a game I haven't run in years. And this is basically all I find that has been updated with any kind of frequency. The creators of all the old netbooks haven't updated in years, my favroite sites are gone... It's sad really.

Shadowrun is my favorite game, and I'd hate to se anything happen to it. Is there really as little interest as I'm seeing, or am I just missing it? Perhaps there is a whole new generation of activity at places I'm not finding, and from people I'm not seeing.

I certainly hope so. Nothing would disapoint me more than to lose the only game I've ever seen that has it all. Great world, great story, great system.

[FXcalibur]

I wouldn't know about that, but I can find at least a few SR players wherever I look. One even plans to start a fansite soon, so the game's definately not dead. It's just not as popular as, say, D&D, so you gotta look a bit.

[Voran]

It's a tough call. Here in Hawaii, at least on Oahu, I can tell you its nearly impossible to find SR materials. Most of the big stores don't carry them, and its more than a little depressing to see walls of d20 materials. I mean, i like DnD, but...come on.

[Grinder]

Hey, you're living in Hawaii - isn't that enough? :D

[Synner]

Sometimes 2 and 2 does not make 4...

First off, Shadowrun the game is pretty healthy all things considered. In fact some of the recent supplements have sold exceptionally well and overall there's been (for good and bad) an influx of new interest and players into the game (just take a look around these forums).

There has been a hiatus of almost a year in releases since Sprawl Survival Guide which had to do with industry issues beyond FanPro's control. Shadows of Europe has been plagued by delays but it will be coming out any day now. Mr Johnson's Little Black Book will follow soon thereafter. Loose Alliances is in editing while Running Wild and SOTA64 are almost complete and there's one more book in initial development and more stuff on the horizon.

However, a lot of old-timers and fans that used to make the Shadowrun online community the marvel it was have since drifted away or got caught up in RL. This wouldn't be a problem if the influx of new gamers was as productive and dedicated to the setting and concepts as the previous generation. Unfortunately as you can attest by numerous threads on Dumpshock, many of the new gamers are still largely unfamiliar with the universe and/or seem to prefer to focus on tweaking and maxing out characters and making the best of the rules (a trend with the D20 migrants) rather than making their own contributions to the mythos. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing inherently "wrong" with people wanting to make albino night one magical adept combat mages with Increased Reflexes 7 or whatever, it's simply an entirely different approach to gaming and interest in Shadowrun than many of the long-time fans possess and more importantly one which easily gets bogged down in endless and unproductive rules debates. In fact this shift away from setting discussion to rules debate and tweaking has pushed away many old timers whose interest in the game has always been the detailed background and intricate metaplots, and none of the newbies seem as interested or as dedicated to the setting to produce the tons and tons of web material that the old timers did. Which is definitely a pity.

Let me ask you when was the last time you, a long-time fan, contributed to that online community?

[Abstruse]

The release schedule from FanPro got pushed back due to unforseen circumstances (computer crashes, printer problems, and stuff like that). Shadows of Europe is due out shortly (I believe Adam said it's at the printers now), and all the other books are on schedule. There should be 4-5 new books out by the end of the year, and Shadows of Europe is going to be over 200 pages I believe so there's lots of material in there. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of those points though.

As far as the fan community goes, NSRCG (amazing character generator) software is updated with every new rulebook that comes out (current to Sprawl Survival Guide with its custom lifestyle rules), CCOC (cyberdeck construction and manager) was just recently updated (as in the past few days) as was Valkyrie (cyberware/bioware manager program). As far as optional rules and fanbooks, that area is pretty dry mainly because it's dry all over. Few people are writing alternate rules for ANY gaming system. The number of websites for D&D fan material has dropped significantly, and there's only a handful of Shadowrun and Vampire sites that still update. RPGing in general is what's stagnant as people would rather play video games or whatever it seems...

The Abstruse One

[FXcalibur]

The trouble with contributing to the mythos is that we newer ones get tend to flamed for our ideas by the older ones. You wouldn't believe how many times I've been told "SR's world is perfect and comphrehensive, don't make new shit up. SR's creaters write better than your silly ideas. Redmond's not like that! Survival guide says so-and-so gangs live there!" or "That's so anime/d20/new age/un-cyberpunk that it utterly ruins shadowrun's mood and setting! Don't GM what you don't understand. Now go make a tried and true run of the mill character with one of the usual archetypes because everything else results in you standing out, being inefficient and/or dying a quick bloody death." Heck, that even goes for SURGE even though it's a part of canon.

[Synner]

[Masterofthegame]

[Abstruse]

You know, I used to blame D20 too for all the "bad blood" coming into Shadowrun and you know what? I've got two die-hard D20 players in my game who created characters that aren't all twinked out and are role playing the characters fairly well for not knowing the setting that well (though I must give much of the credit to the two other players who set the stage perfectly with their twisted conspiracy theories on top of conspiracy theories for my first adventure).

It is a shame that people feel they need to listen to people say "You can't do that!". I've known several creative people in varying fields from writers to artists to filmmakers and screenwriters and there's always someone saying "You can't do that!" The correct response to the "You can't do that!" emails, posts, and various flames is to reply and say "Too late, I did. And I'll do it again. Suck on that one." Or just not reply at all. I'm currently (slowly) working on a sourcebook for my local area (Houston, Galveston, Beaumont) which definately isn't canon and I frankly don't care what anyone else says. I've also got an update for the Mercurial adventure and about to start working on one for the original Harlequin (updating stats to 3rd Ed and making minor tweaks), but I'm not sure about copyright ramafications if I post them online since the intellectual property is still owned by WizKids even if they aren't printing the books anymore and even if I don't give enough information in the file to run the game without the actual game books...

The bottom line is don't worry about what others say, just do what you want. As most people know, 95% of anything fan-produced is crap, it's just no one can agree on which 5% is good.

The Abstruse One

[toturi]

[Siege]

I think Blackjack started writing for the d20 system.

As for the others - they moved on? Stopped gaming? Had other things take precedence?

There are plenty of reasons why one might stop devoting hours on end to publishing fan material for no other reason than to publish.

-Siege

[Cursedsoul]

I for one can attest to the lack of people. But then again, I'm a hermit and I don't know how to really ask people about much of anything IRL due to my craptastic childhood experiences. Fat kids do not make friends. I've only just come around to the fact that this is less true as you get older, but its still solid as a dikoted rock.

I've been interested in P&P games for years, since when I was around oh...8 or 9. Its a decade later and I've still no one to play with. My only real friend throughout that time got into other things and neither of us know much of anyone else. Got enough to start a group, but it was subpar. One of them didn't want to play, one was literally just not able to grasp the concept of roleplaying, and the other got too ahead of himself like I've done and had his game explode when everyone else failed.

It was tough. I got into a SR3 game a year or two ago but that lasted a month. The GM had a couple years experience and alongside his twin they knew what they were doing. They moved to Newhampshire I think, so no more SR for me.

Got into an AD&D3E game a couple months after that along with Vampire: The Masquerade. I got to see first hand how the professionals do it. My AD&D GM (ran VTM too) had 25+ years of experience. Three other people had over a decade. The other two knew what they were doing well enough to pass. I was a total newbie, never having the opportunity to get into the game. I sucked massively thanks to my dice and my lack of knowledge. If it weren't my D20 raping me with his perpetual low rolls (I'd rountinely fail DC checks of 5) it was my newbiehood to pick up the slack.

Despite how crappy it was I enjoyed myself immensely. I needed more experience was my verdict because I was amazed at how seamless and smooth everything ran with the rest of the group. The DM even has my bad dice karma and he still did awesome.

Vampire was at first better because I was able to do more thinking, and D10's love me, but then the vets left and it fell apart.

I found Dumpshock sometime between here and tehre, so I tried to make an entrance into this arena. The people didn't care about me (no surprise because I was a new face) and I wasn't sure about the PbP format, but I gave it ago. Found out I could still enjoy myself, but when the 3-4 games I did try lasted a month at best I lost all hope. I was always one of the last people of the original group to call it quits.

At that point I stopped playing. Nobody IRL to play with. Nobody online who could stick it out. The interest was there but I'd be damned if I could find any.

Now I'm back, with 3 months till college and hoping that I'll find some pencilneck geeks (:D) to play with.

Its tough being one of the people who hates 99% of video games. I HAVE to think I HAVE to ponder I HAVE TO ROLEPLAY. I don't do the final fantasy mambo any longer. After 8 I gave up the ghost. Hell, if it weren't for games like Wizardry with its oldschool flavor, Fallout 1/2 with its coolness, Wastelands with its better than coolness, MYST with its puzzles, my NES, and the Shadowrun games for Genesis/SNES I'd probably never play VGs.

Even right now I'm not playing much in the way of games. I want P&P. I must savor it, consume it, and make friends with it. Life in the minority sucks.

[Nephyte]

@Cursedsoul


First of all, it's not being Fat that impedes you from having friends. I know quite a few fat people within my various social circles, and they all have plenty of friends and keep socially active. Plus if it's really weight that's holding you back, that can be worked off. Oh, sure it *IS* work, definitely, but it's not a defining trait of who you are, specially not socially. Without going into details of my friends or my own personal life, weight is lost, if you earnestly put effort into making that goal come true.


Everyones a nameless face on the internet, and you're going to be sorely dissapointed if you think you'll be considered a valued member of most communities just by registering. People wait for you to start contributing, to make a judgement of you. Do you think people would have the same respect for Ancient History if he didn't contribute as much as he did to the community, and in such a logical way? What if he had just came here, and his only post was "I know more about SR Canon Meta-Plot then anyone here, and you all have it wrong?" No one would care who he was either. Your contributions and the manner you present yourself is what makes others recognize you and respect you.


As far as gaming goes. Play by Posts are typically shortlived because of the difficulty in keeping them up. Even a couple days lag on the GM's side can cause players to lose interest rapidly and for real interest to be maintained there needs to be fairly heavy daily activity. A hard thing for all but the most dedicated to keep up, considering work, family, school and a social life on top of anything unexpected that comes up. I'd love to join one personally, but I know my life is simply to erratic to dedicate properly to a PbP adventure.


Gaming groups are the same, it took me 5 years nearly after my first core-group broke up (I moved away) to find a good new roleplaying group with people who were genuinely friends. There were times of spotty roleplaying in between but nothing major. Even now, due to RL responsibilies of the various RPers I know, it is hard for us to sustain a campaign. To many people with dual responsibilities (School + Work) or Swing Shifts, Family events on days when everyone else can get together to roleplay.



@Well, whomever.

As for contributing to the community. I've really never seen anyone attacked for presenting a fluff piece contribution for others to read/use as background in their campaign. Yes, I'll admit, people do get flamed occaisionally if they attempt to introduce "munchkinized" rule's mechanic's or gear to the game. Remember the people Synner pointed out were once "Newbs" to the Shadowrun Community as well. Blackjack has taken plenty of flames for his site, some of which he even posted so he could comment on. If you put content up though, invariably someone will read it, and someone will like it. If it's fluff, you'll probably get a higher percentage who like it, or at least inspired by it in some way. If it's rules mechanics, well, that depends on how reasoned out the mechanic is.

That's my personal take on the community though. From my observations. Perhaps yours have differed.


@ Comments about the Game Dying.


From what I understand a First Printing of Core Rules of a Non-D&D Title* (All printing notes from here-on should automatically be considered Non-D&D) is Typically around 10,000 - 25,000 copies. Selling even the upper range of the First printing of core rules is considered pretty successful. Shadowrun is currently on it's 12th Printing of said Core Rules.

The Supplemental rulebooks (Crunchy books) are typically in the same range for the First Printing, and again selling the upper range is considered successful. Again with the exception of the Matrix, Shadowrun seems to be doing quite healthy here.

For the more Fluffy books, the first print is in the 5-10k and selling those is considered successful. Some books have entered a second printing, some still have stock of the first. Harder to tell how FanPro is doing with the Fluff books at the moment, but for the most part, many of them seem fairly well recieved by the community.


My numbers may be off, but that's what I recall from conversation with industry insiders. To me it looks like generally Shadowrun 3rd Edition is doing healthy.


Considering Forum activity, of the various company specific forums I visit, Dumpshock is the highest Non-WOTC board in Membership, which is something of an oddity considering it's fan-run rather then based on the companies main website which typically means a lower subscriber rate.

[Synner]

[Pistons]

[Xirces]

Also remember that DSF isn't the only SR community. The ShadowRN mailing list in particular has a number of subscribers who can't always use a web browser to come here or don't want to.

Gurth, in particular, is a regular there...

[Adam]

[Misfit Toy]

I think the reason you don't see many fansites these days is because most people realize the futility in them.

[FlakJacket]

Oh Gurth's still pretty active over on RN. For Lester- Wordman- he got hitched a while back so he probably had/has other things on his mind. :)

[Adam]

[Chance359]

He could mean how back in the day before the forums, there was no centralized location for comparison on ideas about the world, mechanics, ect. So it was easy to post a fansite in your little corner of the internet. Now everyone brings their ideas to the forums and finds that there are alot of people who don't see the game the way they do, and they loose confidence in their ideas.

[Squire]

Sadly, my interest in Shadowrun has waned slowly over the last few years.

Part of it is that I really don't like the direction things take- Ever since 3rd edition SR has grown more cartoonish, more munchkinized, more instant power oriented. It has lost the gritty, desperate, street, underdog, cyberpunk (with magic), semi-realistic threat level, have to work your way to the top feel that originally attracted me to the game.

Part of this is the fault of the game's producers. Cartoon Shadow Run set in solidly with 3rd edition, the cartoon munchkin feel was embraced wholly with the art, the fiction and so forth. Rules changes were okay, but the game was now solidly marketed to a very different style of gamer.

Speaking of which- part of my problem is the changes in the gaming fans. It appears that the new generation of fans are more into being king shit in their game than actually role-playing.

Frankly, I don't care for that style of game.

Real life intrudes, but if you love the game you'll find time. Sadly, I'm not nearly as motivated to play as I was in the past. Part of that is having other interests, but a huge part of it is I simply don't care for what Shadowrun has become.

I've always dabbled in writing fiction and the Shadowrun universe has been very inspiring. But I haven't had any interest in writing Shadowrun fiction in over a year now.

I've been talking about getting a Shadowrun game together for about 6 months now. My players are all lined up, the campaign is one I ran in the past, so there is very little preperatory work to be done- yet I haven't gotten a single thing accomplished- I simply have no motivation to get it done.

I talked it over with my players and I'm going to make a trip to the local gaming store to see what other games might catch my interest.

Cartoon-munchkin Shadowrun has driven me away as a player. I'll watch the releases. I might pick them up, I might not. I might get back into Shadowrun in the future, but there is a decent chance I won't.

Shadowrun's long-term, loyal fan base- the people who have been around since first edition and buy everything Shadowrun related that gets released are in danger. I don't think I'm the only one who is losing interest. Shadowrun is no longer the game we love. The long-term, old-school fans have the money to invest in the game, but I know I'm not the only one who is losing interest.

The new generation of fans tend to have more limited resources and have to be very selective in how they invest. They also tend to have shorter attention spans.

But they may be a wider market base.

Perhaps the producers of Shadowrun made a wise decision by changing things, or perhaps not. Time will tell. In the mean time, I'm on my way to the gaming store to see if something else catches my attention.

That's not to say that the new, cartoon munchkin Shadowrun isn't valid or valuable- it just is not for me.

[Shev]

Another thing that gets in the way of fan site is actually having the skill to program them. I wouldn't mind making an SR site, but I know next to nothing about programming. (All I know is a little C++) I'll bet that confines a lot of new fans to just posting.

[Prospero]

I'm going to have to disagree with you. I love 3rd ed. and I've been playing since 1990, with 1st. I wasn't particularly happy with the cartoonish art of the 2nd ed core book and some of the more cartoonish art in the 3rd ed base book that I didn't think fit the SR world especially well, but the game, I felt, wasn't all that different. Besides the art, I'd like to know what you consider too cartoonish about the game (your post only said "and so forth").

In fact, I think the game has only gotten better. The 2nd ed Horror metaplot was fine, but I prefered Bugs and other stuff. Now, with the setting books coming out, I think Shadowrun has gotten a lot more realistic and interesting. Three words: Sprawl Survival Guide. Thats by far the most realistic and useful book (in an "everyday-what-cereal-do-you-eat-in-the-morning kind of way) that has ever been released for SR, IMO. SR has also taken on a strong realistic international feel (yeah, there were various country sourcebooks in 2nd ed, but many of them - like London, Tir Tairngire, and Tir na nOg - were not in the least gritty or realistic or even usable in many campaigns except as background). The SoNA (and, I hope, SoE) and Dragons of the 6th World sourcebooks (among tohers) have fantastic international settings that are much more accessable than anything that has been published before.

Anyway, you're entitled to your own opinion. I'm sorry to hear that you're loosing interest in SR. But don't think for a moment that all the people that have been playing/collecting since 1st ed feel the same. I certainly don't. You should maybe look around and give the game another chance. Don't run the same campaign that you've run before - do something different. Pick up the Sprawl Survival Guide and get back to the nitty-gritty life on the streets, if that's what you want.