Shadowrun past it's prime? Options

[Misfit Toy]

Aside from the art and typicalpower escalation with each new book, I've had the exact opposite opinion of 3rd Edition. There's been a horrible trend to make the game more "realistic" (just look at the annoyance that is the Interconnectivity rules for cyberware, or the convulted mess for trying to figure out what satellite network you're supposed to be on). Even worse, instead of being inspired by or borrowing from mythology, they're taking the D&D route and introducing weird crap out of their asses and just giving it a mythological name (if we're lucky). Practically every new critter introduced to the game has been like that. About the closest we've gotten to something from real world mythology is the Bunyip... and that's just sad.

The coolest thing about the early days of Shadowrun is that it was reintroducing the mytholgical days of old into a gritty futuristic setting. Now, it's just a future setting with magic (note the boringness of that description?) and -- God help us -- anime-inspired junk like SURGE.

Sure, the older editions had its share of cheese, too, but at least its heart was in the right place.

[Cursedsoul]

[Adam]

[FXcalibur]

[Misfit Toy]

[FXcalibur]

Out of curiosity, what was the other one?

I didn't mean to brush you off or imply any offense, in case that was missed. It's just hard to acknowledge another person's opinion on a forum and not appear flippant or arrogant or 'thanks for telling. now go beep off'.

[The Question Man]

Q) Is Shadowrun past it's prime? :(

A) I do not think so.

Q) Does FanPro's delayed publishing of new materials hurt sales? :(

A) Possibly. I admit to losing interest about this time. Admitally, the Shadowrun campaign I had been running died about the same time. FanPro's delays and lack of new Shadowrun materials had an impact.

Q.) Did the abandonment of respected Forums Members lead to others abandoning the Forums? :dead:

A) Yes, for me at least.

Q) Has Shadowrun become less Cyberpunk-ish with each addition? :cyber:

A) Yes, for me the lack of shadowtalk in each supplement added a lot of flavour to the otherwise dry text. The loss of character/interview/stories also made for dry reading and loss of colour/flavour. As one of my gamers commented on Friday night I love that "Smiling Bandit strikes again , ha ha ha". Those little touches brought the game to life.

Q) Did later editions make the game more MUNCHIE? :S

A) Yes and No. It definitely had an impact, but the rules changes in the main were good. They simplified and clairified things greatly for me. (mind you Decking and Rigging rules will continue to be a struggle for me as a GM).

Q) Will I stick around? :(

A) Maybe :) , I love the Shadowrun setting and will continue to enjoy it. However I will continue to use House Rules to prevent POWER GAMING in my campaigns. The GM sets the tone, enforces the setting, and maintain the theme. The rest is up to the PCs.

Cheers :D

QM (President of Lurker's Anonymous)

[[Post edited by Admin to remove the excessively large fonts.]]

[Misfit Toy]

[Synner]

[FXcalibur]

Come to think of it, have the original writers of SR been interviewed (be it official or otherwise) on how they think the game is doing or how they think it's been progressing?

[The Question Man]

I'm sorry if it sounded like harping Synner. That was not my intention. Simply an obsevation. You say it is as prevelent as ever. I disagree. As to whether Shadowrun is not getting away from Cyberpunk setting/genre. I disagree, but I understand your point of view. Time will tell. FanPro's delayed products are not at fault. I agree, but it no less has an impact on consumers.

I enjoy Shadowrun :) , I miss Shadowrun :( , and I hope to see it again soon. ;)

QM

[CircuitBoyBlue]

Just to echo what Squire said on the last page (and I know he took some heat for it, and I will too), I have also been playing since first edition, and I think the game has gotten a bit cartoony. My solution has been to just not play third edition. I like the game a whole buttload in terms of how it was before everything started getting goofy on me. I'll still pick up the later sourcebooks when I get a chance, because some of them are an interesting read, but I don't really feel like incorporating them into my game, at least not in whole (a good example is the cybertechnology book that included oral darts [goofy] but also mentioned new uses for old ware, like a cybereye on your hand [neat]). I also personally hate what I think most of you refer to as metaplots. I like having Great Dragons be a specter in my game, sort of a fable your fixer tells you to get you to be less arrogant in your dealings with strangers. I couldn't give a crap less who Lofwyr is trying to manipulate this week. In my last campaign, we had to simply pretend that Dunkelzahn never became a UCAS citizen, never ran for president, never got elected, and was never assassinated. Problems arose when every sourcebook after that made these things impossible to ignore, and not only because they devoted a sourcebook to it (which we were able to just not buy), a friggin' megacorporation imploded because of it. So now we have to remember a list of corporations that don't exist in our games. And some stuff we ignore just because we got to it before canon did. Long before anything canon dealt with Russia, we had miniature campaign set up there that was drastically different than anything said in Target: Smuggler's Havens (at least I would assume so, we're CRAZY). Same goes for the Japanese Imperial State. In my current campaign (which is currently in 2051), we're starting to have conversations about what canon events are going to happen. So far I think we're in favor of bug spirits, though we might come up with our own rules for them. We slightly dealt with Horrors, though we don't have the Threats book they appeared in, so we used our scant Earthdawn collection (the main book), pretended we knew what we were doing with it, and made a loose translation to shadowrun. We own a few third edition rule books, but mostly because we bought them before we realized they were nowhere near as cool as our first and seconds. We agree that a lot of second edition is broken, but we have been playing it for a LONG time, and prefer to fix it ourselves, rather than look at the cover of the thirds. And shadowrun may have developed a good international feel, but that's the opposite of what we're looking for right now. Our last campaign had a bunch of globe-trotting hot-drek shadowrunners, but now we're mostly a bunch of street scum from the barrens that had never been outside Seattle prior to this week (had to take a field trip to DeeCee while we were all in DC). This Sprawl Survival Guide seems like a neat book, in that it seems like the first gritty, "you're trying to survive in the city" release in a long time, and it seems like it doesn't have anything to do with whether Lofwyr or Hestaby is on top in the power plays this week, and so I'll pick it up if I ever find another place that sells SR books, but even then I doubt that much of it would be applicable, just because my campaign is set in 2051.

The cartoony thing, and even the munchkin thing, is all well and good if that's your thing. It's just not mine. And by this point, I think Shadowrun has made itself goofy enough that it can never cater to me again. I'll continue to play it, but I'll be playing 2nd edition just like I have since 3rd came out, house ruling anythign that gets in the way. I love the game, and I won't abandon it just because it abandoned me. I don't really think you can say it is dead, because it is an inanimate being. I know that seems like an obvious point, but things that are frequently expanded like shadowrun seem like they have a life of their own. They don't; they have what life you give them with your little imagination. My imagination is stoked enough with what I have, I don't need to dampen it with things that don't suit my tastes. If they suit other peoples' tastes, that's great. But I'm pretty much done buying stuff. Which sucks, because I am interested in a Shadowrun community, I just don't think they'd want anything to do with me, because the Shadowrun I play is significantly different than the shadowrun any of you play, which is true for anyone, but ESPECIALLY true for people that are still playing an old edition, ignoring half or more of the canon timeline after 2052 or so, and are willing to go crazy with what characters can do with B/R skills.

[Nath]

[TinkerGnome]

Someone needs to explain to me what the "cartoonish" aspect of Shadowrun is. I just went through the SR3 core rulebook and half a dozen 2e sourcebooks and the ratio of "cartoonish" art to more gritty art appears to be similar. There are only a few pieces of art in SR3 that I really consider cartoonish (the color plate with the rat and the dwarves being one).

As far as power... I've never had a problem with it. As a GM, you get the kind of characters that you want because you 1) communicate your desires and requirements effectively with your players and 2) you possess the ability to say no. Just because the base system makes somewhat stronger characters doesn't mean you have to let your game work at that level if you don't want to. I've made characters on 110 BP which worked just fine and fit a lower powered concept.

[otaku mike]

[Nephyte]

@A General Feeling of People not Liking Shadowrun for it's Metaplot.



It just got me thinking, you're saying you feel Shadowrun is slipping because of it's Metaplot. Shadowrun as a Game does not equal it's Metaplot. That's like saying any other game out there equals it's game world. It doesn't. The game world (and Metaplot) are simply provided because for a lot of people, it's easier to use a pre-existing Plot and others world idea's then developing our own worlds.


I didn't like the Avatar series of Forgotten Realms. So I ignored it. Did I think it ruined D&D though? No.

Wasn't particularily fond of the DragonLance Metaplot, but I didn't think it ruined the game either.


There is nothing that says you *have* to use the Metaplot as a GM. However, you can't expect to buy a book that is fluff (and thus Metaplot) for 2060, and expect it to ignore the events of a 2057 Metaplot. This is true for every game system if you want to use their Metaplot.



Shadowrun itself is a set of rules governing how to play a game. It's also a concept of gameplay that really has nothing to do with the Metaplot itself. If I changed my world geographically, and had 15 Megacorporations and forgot about the NAN alltogether I'd still have the same core game to play. The rules wouldn't change, and Shamanic Totems are still perfectly viable with or without the NAN nations as a form of Magical Theory.


Shadowrun != Metaplot

The Metaplot might be cartoony to you, but that doesn't make the game itself Cartoony. No more then D&D must be played as an Overpowered Heroism game because that's the way Forgotten Realms metaplot is developed.

The fact that the majority of people seem to involve Metaplot into their home games is more a homage to the writers of Shadowrun for creating their own world that was wonderful enough that many GM's seem to want to use it. I'd say just from general impression that most D&D GM's would rather create one of their own worlds, then use a published one. Think about that for a second. That says to me that Shadowrun's Metaplot is presented in a way that the majority find it useable to their tastes, as opposed to far more popular Fantasy settings.

[Abstruse]

I've been playing Shadowrun since 1992. I was born in 1980. That means I've devoted half of my entire life to this game. I've bought almost every sourcebook either new when it came out or playing catch-up over the past year and a half. I just want to say this: I LOVE THIRD EDITION. The rules are much better, they're more realistic yet more condusive to an "action movie" type game at the same time.

The new sourcebooks are great (not as great as some of the older books like Harlequin or Universal Brotherhood, but those are two of the best gaming suppliments I've ever read in my LIFE). DotSW, SSG, SOTA, and others have opened up the game world incredibly, adding new depth and creating a much more living WORLD as opposed to just a living USA. Before these new books, it seemed like nothing changed in the Shadowrun world outside North America and Germany. Now, there are events happening all over the world and esp. with SoE on its way this year and Shadows of Asia in the works supposedly for next year, you'll have enough information to set a Shadowrun game damn near anywhere in the world. And there IS shadowtalk in all the sourcebooks, just not in the RULEbooks. At first I didn't like that, but now while playing the game and needing to reference stuff, I found it much easier to find what I'm looking for specifically this way.

The only thing I miss from the old days is the slow building of plots. You get tidbits of information in this book, clues in the next, in-character information the next, and finally rules in a fourth. I can understand why in the current gaming market why you can't do this anymore, but I really do miss it.

I love the game, love the game world, and want it to continue. Shadowrun is not past its prime. It's alive and well, and hopefully will continue for years to come.

The Abstruse One

[tjn]

To those that insist the previous editions of SR were less "cartoonish" then now: Rockers with green mohawks.

Say whatever ya might about SURGE, it never did hold a candle to early SR's obsession with the music industry.

If I ever have to play Total Eclipse again, I swear someone will pay.

[BitBasher]

"cartoonish" is in how the game is run by the GM. The SR game world can encompass nearly any style of atmosphere and work wonderfully in the hands of a competent GM. My game is, world wise, pretty much entirely canon and has never, ever been slightly cartoony.

[Connor]

I have to say Shadowrun is definitely not past its prime. Like Abtruse above, I've been playing since the mid-90's, but not quite as long as him. I've collected a huge amount of sourcebooks, although it's not as complete as I'd like and when people say Shadowrun is becoming 'cartoony' I just don't follow it at all. None of the guys I've played with for the past 8 years has the opinion that Shadowrun is becoming cartoony either.

On the topic of the artwork, not all of it is going to be great, but I think 3rd Edition has some of the best artwork yet. I love the art from DotSW, SoF, and SSG. There are a lot of great pieces and the cover from SoF is fantastic, imo.

3rd Edition is great, it's a huge improvment over the previous editions. I've never had a problem with 3rd edition character's being stronger and it's pretty easy to keep at the SR2 levels.

The latest material coming out has been extremely well written. The people working on Shadowrun today have a great grasp of the system and the world. If it wasn't for Shadowrun, I probably wouldn't be doing any role-playing anymore at all. Shadowrun is near and dear enough to my heart to keep me involved with it.

A final note on the metaplot. To me the metaplot is one of the strongest aspects of the Shadowrun game. If anyone hates the idea behind Dunklezahn being elected, the only people they have to blame are the Shadowrun fans who sent in their voter cards and drove the the metaplot in that direction. Even though my group never sent in our card (much to my regret) we would have voted for Dunklezahn.

No gaming system or world is perfect, but Shadowrun seems to have a very strong and above-average system and a very strong and above-average world. They go well together, they tie in to another game entirely in the case of Earthdawn.

I'm looking forward to all of the upcoming releases. It's a great time to play Shadowrun.

[Siege]

I helped playtest "Queen Euphoria". :grinbig:

-Siege

[CircuitBoyBlue]

[shadd4d]

After having not played Shadowrun for a long time (2-3 years), it's amazing to me that I actually want to come back to the game. I'm in a similar boat as Abtruse (born 1981, started 1994). Sometimes the new art does strike me as cartoonish, if not really...not my type. On the other hand, some of the new art does have the grittiness for me.

I started with the 2nd ed and have picked up most of the books for 3rd ed. I still enjoy reading the books and the adventures.

The Shadowrun metaplot has always been interesting, mostly because I've always seen it as multiple metaplots. Deus, the bugs, the horrors, Dunkelzahn and the dragons, Proteus AG, the Comet, they're all their own metaplots. Interestingly enough, Shadowrun has never ever said, there will be an end (contrast that with Vampire or with the plot point books from PEGinc). If anything, Shadowrun doesn't stop, which is different compared to other games.

Shadowrun isn't the old alternative to D&D that I remember in 1997. On the other hand, it's probably one of the most international games I've seen. I don't think it's going to disappear anytime soon.

Don

[Paul]

Okayfirst let me that this topic comes up every year or so, at least twice a year.

I think Adam, Synner and Pistons covered a lot of what I would say in any sort of real substance, and likely better but there is one thing that caught my eye and bothered me.

[Synner]