 Living in the Shadows: OOC, never relax... |
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 Jul 26 2005, 04:47 PM
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#1701
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Grand Nagus  Group: Members Posts: 4,053 Joined: 27-July 04 From: Almost Heaven Member No.: 6,518  |
I thought using ambidexterity 8 as an edge wiped out all second weapon mods...but I could be wrong
Edit: I will fire with both guns anyways, burst fire twice. I have -3 Recoil on both pistols Pistols 6 Burst One Right Hand [ Spoiler ] Burst Two Left Hand [ Spoiler ] Burst Three Right Hand [ Spoiler ] Burst Four Left Hand [ Spoiler ]
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Jul 26 2005, 05:01 PM
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#1702
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,031 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Cal Free Member No.: 6,278 |
Correct, Ambidexterity 8 has no target modifiers at all. +0 for first and second weapon. But Grendel may have just been qouting the rule when he said that all modifiers for the second weapon apply when not using the smartlink.
So, in your case the second weapon modifier of +0 applies. :) Though Grendel can overule me on this of course. Slip |
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Jul 26 2005, 05:24 PM
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#1703
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
I'll let grendel handle all the rules specifics, but I want to toss another thing out for your consideration Grendel:
Bastard- Guardians can only burst-fire as a complex action, so at most you could only fire one burst from each gun. Under no circumstances (even if you were firing just one Guardian) could you BF twice from the same Guardian. Which leads to my question... Grendel- Is it possible to fire two bursts, one from each Guardian, since each burst requires a complex action and characters are only allowed 1 Complex Action per pass? Obviously this affects Dragon too, since he also uses paired Guardians at times, so I figure this is as good a time to ask as any. |
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Jul 26 2005, 05:37 PM
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#1704
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
I'll echo that question :) (I can potentially see Alleycat with two burst-modded pistols as well.)
Is there anywhere in the rules that states how many bullets a given gun can fire per full combat round? I'm thinking there ought to be a maximum, before the gun itself starts jamming? |
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Jul 26 2005, 06:11 PM
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#1705
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
Ah the wonders of magic, never have to worry about that.
I've never seen any rules regarding maximum bullets, but my group at least tends to house rule it, although, again, rule mods are up to GMs and I'll be fine with whichever. |
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Jul 26 2005, 06:27 PM
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#1706
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
You can fire two burst-modded pistols, just like you can fire two SMGs, one in each hand, on burst fire. Think machine pistols. And yes, there are rules that state how many bullets a given gun can fire per full combat round. It’s pretty generic, like everything below super-machine gun class (assault rifles and SMGs, LMGs, MMGs, HMGs) can fire a max of 10 bullets per round on full auto. Super-machine gun class (Ingram Supermach, Ares HV-LMG, etc) can fire a max of 15 bullets per round. Miniguns can ONLY fire 15 bullets per round. And so on. It’s in SR3 and Cannon Companion I believe. The issue here is that because the Guardian requires a complex action to use burst fire, will having one in each hand get around the 1 complex action per turn rule? Personally, I would rule no, because otherwise it brings the question of can you fire two weapons (say SMGs) full-auto, if you have one in each hand. It is clearly stated (somewhere, don’t have the book with me) that you cannot fire two weapons at full-auto at the same time, and I BELIEVE (again, no book) that the reasoning is because it requires a complex action to use full auto. In the absence of a specific ruling to the contrary, I would rule that no matter what, a character can only fire one burst from one Guardian per turn, even if you have one in each hand, since a character is only allowed one complex action a turn, and the example in the book of using two full-auto weapons (which would require a complex action for each weapon firing full-auto) has been disallowed. Note that this does not affect say, the Ruger Thunderbolt, which only requires a simple action to fire BF, and therefore COULD be fired with 2 bursts normally per turn, and another one in your off hand would allow for another 2 bursts. Again, that’s my stance in the absence of a specific ruling in the book. Grendel, I’ll wait for you to weigh in on this and we can go/discuss from there, in the GM emails if necessary, so we don’t clog up the OOC thread. |
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Jul 26 2005, 08:16 PM
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#1707
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,031 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Cal Free Member No.: 6,278 |
WinterRat - Let me know how the decker looks astally.
[ Spoiler ]
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Jul 26 2005, 08:27 PM
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#1708
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
She's got some cyber in her head. That's all you can tell with that roll. ;)
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Jul 26 2005, 09:14 PM
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#1709
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Grand Nagus Group: Members Posts: 4,053 Joined: 27-July 04 From: Almost Heaven Member No.: 6,518 |
well my second two shots sucked anyways :D
Edit: I will have to look into getting some Ruger Thunderbolts, gold plated of course. :D |
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Jul 26 2005, 09:27 PM
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#1710
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Just to drop my two cents in. This has always been a flaw in the dual wield rules. It shouldn't give you the ability to have more actions just because you are wielding two weapons. Two pistols? great you can fire one round from each, instead you can fire four. I hate it. But carry that further and you can fire two bursts, or yes, two full auto 10 round shots from each hand. Its stupid, but it is the way the rule reads.
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Jul 26 2005, 11:08 PM
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#1711
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
If this is an absolute cap, this would create the limits you're looking for, Shadow. Take a single pistol (say it's modded to burst fire in simple action); and let's say it's a street sam who gets to go three times in a combat round. Pass #1: two simple actions (burst fire each) = six bullets. Pass #2: two simple actions (burst fire each) = six bullets. ... oops ... |
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Jul 26 2005, 11:18 PM
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#1712
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
Ask 10 shadowrun players a rules question and you'll get how many answers/house rules/theories/thoughts/rulings/interpretations...? :)
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Jul 26 2005, 11:30 PM
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#1713
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,289 Joined: 20-April 04 Member No.: 6,260 |
Slip, Scrap- She's waiting for you, since you said you'd meet her, so it's on you guys to make a move, otherwise she's just sorta standing there, trying to make it look casual.
Sedna- Go ahead and finish the meet and zip over to the Rhino, unless you want to press Durin for anymore info. Paul- You're free to post, but I recommend you coordinate with Sedna so we can get the timetables correlated correctly. |
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Jul 26 2005, 11:33 PM
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#1714
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,031 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Cal Free Member No.: 6,278 |
Winter - Figured as much, I think Scrap is going to post the next update as Max has no clue what to do at the moment other than sit tight and watch.
That and I don't want the freaky looking elf to scare her away. :) Slip |
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Jul 27 2005, 12:40 AM
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#1715
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,763 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Special Hell Member No.: 284 |
As per Cannon Companion p. 94, two weapon ranged combat, the rules are as I stated above. The ambidexterity edge allows you to negate penalties for using a second weapon in melee combat. Burst fire is possible from each weapon, as long as both are fired in the same mode: i.e. both in BF or both in SA, not one in each.
The Guardian can fire a burst as a complex action, and therefore only one burst may be fired from each weapon. Sedna: you're forgetting that it's a 10 round cap on automatic bursts, and you can fire one per pass. So it would be 10 first pass and 10 second pass. The limit is 18 rounds for a supermachinegun class weapon. There have been numerous debates over the cyclic and sustained rates of fire created by the artificial limits on the numbers of rounds in bursts in Shadowrun. I've always felt that it struck a good balance between complexity of reality and simplicity of rules since in the real world, every weapon has a different cyclic and sustained rate of fire, which would mean additional stats for every weapon in every class. |
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Jul 27 2005, 03:25 AM
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#1716
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
Winterrat- actually that's more or less what I'm going to do, he's going to hang out there, making trips back and forth in the astral until he sees some sign of Alleycat, or some sign he's no longer welcome in the area.
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Jul 27 2005, 05:47 AM
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#1717
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,763 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Special Hell Member No.: 284 |
Bclements: Tony is up on 2.
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Jul 27 2005, 02:43 PM
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#1718
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 534 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Bug City Member No.: 7,016 |
WR1-
Perception to see if/where Iris is carrying any weapons. [ Spoiler ]
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Jul 27 2005, 02:51 PM
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#1719
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,582 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,546 |
grendel, I was just going by the quote here, nothing more (which is where I got "round" from). You hadn't confirmed or denied: is there a canon absolute cap of any kind on weapons which aren't supermachinegun class? ie. (and probably most relevantly) pistols?
paul, DH, sorry I held you up -- one of you take the next post, you can write her in at the Rhino at 11:20, give or take a minute. (We'll want to shift to the Salvation thread.) Her appearance is once again that of Sal. I wrote in voicemail since you said Blaze was staying astral until he spotted one of us and I figured Tin Star would be late (again, again) :) |
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Jul 27 2005, 02:54 PM
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#1720
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,507 Joined: 27-January 05 From: ...and I'm all out of bubblegum Member No.: 7,021 |
Ok, how's the visablity? I'm looking primarly for anyone targeting me or Marquis, secondarly for the couple in the middle at the beginning of the fight. Would I need Observe or Observe in Detail for this?
Perception, in case its needed [ Spoiler ]
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Jul 27 2005, 03:07 PM
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#1721
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,763 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Special Hell Member No.: 284 |
No, there is no cap. The only limit is dictated by the weapon's action. SA weapons fire one round per simple action. SS weapons fire once per simple action as well, but can only fire once per phase even though characters get two simple actions per phase. |
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Jul 27 2005, 03:11 PM
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#1722
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,763 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Special Hell Member No.: 284 |
You'll need to expend an Observe in Detail action since the area is covered in a combination of standard gray and IR smoke, making visual perception difficult if not impossible. From your position, you can barely make out the vehicles against the back wall, as well as what's probably the couple in the middle of the fight. Both of them appear to be motionless on the ground. You don't see anyone else up, nor does anyone appear to be aiming at you. |
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Jul 27 2005, 04:21 PM
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#1723
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,507 Joined: 27-January 05 From: ...and I'm all out of bubblegum Member No.: 7,021 |
Ok, Observe in Detail, then Switch to FA on my assault rifle. You want me to IC post this? Or wait till next combat round (if there is any)?
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Jul 27 2005, 04:35 PM
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#1724
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,763 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Special Hell Member No.: 284 |
Switching modes on a cybernetically controlled smartgun is a free action. Post in IC because we're rolling initiative again after your action.
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Jul 27 2005, 07:16 PM
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#1725
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,031 Joined: 23-April 04 From: Cal Free Member No.: 6,278 |
I think it is more along the lines of us getting you greased. :D |
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