 The look, the feel..., The look of guns? |
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 Jul 15 2004, 04:22 PM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689  |
Do you know when clotting actually starts IRL? IMMEDIATELY. Just puncture occurs the body begins clotting. Its seriously that god damn fast.
And how is it a pain in the neck to track individual wounds? Seriously, explain this to me. Can't you simply make a mark above the line in pencil checking off the wounds you've incurred? Example: Billy Bob gets stabbed 3 times for a light wound every time and shot once for a moderate. Paul Player marks off above Light on the monitor 3 times, and once for moderate. It would be that simple. If you don't want to wear a hole in the paper over time, just get like, a coin and stack'em. Piece of paper, a dice, whatever you want. As for complications? That's probably not going to happen unless they're all in the same general area. "Chest" doesn't really cut it but if you were the GM and wanted to rule that all chest wounds complicate each other I'd probably buy it. External bleeding isn't the problem. Its the internal that'll kill you. You can band-aid that stab-wound, you can't band-aid your stomach. I think we're all forgetting what these wound levels tend to represent too. Its not "I got hit with a serious wound, resist" its "I got hit with a serious wound AFTER I resisted" So if I take a light wound that means they missed organs, arteries, etc, etc. All I got was dinged. Not all that hard to fix that. Took a moderate? That needs to be controlled fairly soon, but its still not a HUGE deal. You may have taken damage to an artery, a cluster of veins, whatever you want to attribute "moderate" to. Took a Serious? That's when the shit's hit the fan. If after you resist the attack you STILL take a serious you have just taken a large amount of damage to at least one key organ and the wound itself has caused a shitload of other problems to boot. Your so called complications. ;) Moderate wound ain't complicating much of anything. Anything ABOVE that and YES, complications are in order BUT THATS WHAT THE WOUND LEVEL INDICATES. At least to me. :) Deadly means you just took so much trauma your brain overloads and you pass out, falling into comatose land. Your body might be able to fix itself in time if the danger of bleeding out is taken care of, but like I said. IF YOU TAKE A DEADLY WOUND YOURE PROBABLY SCREWED ANYWAYS. :) I'm talking physical, not stun by the way just to make 100% sure. A stun wound will cause bruising (bleeding that's under the skin and clotted there as well), swelling (dialation of blood vessels and stuff like pain receptors in the area, as well as increased blood flow bringing platelets to the scene of the damage) and whatnot. Take enough of that and you'll die, hence getting beat to death. I don't know if you can really apply bleeding rules to stun damage. Its internal bleeding, but its controlled and limited to the area the damage was incurred at so...yeah. |
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Jul 15 2004, 05:02 PM
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#77
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I already keep a pretty good track of the individual wounds the PCs and important NPCs receive in combat, it's not a problem for me. But most SR players do seem to hate the idea of adding any complication to the combat rules. Realism is certainly not a valid reason to add such complication for about 99% of people on this forum. Thus you have to be very careful, and I remembered from several earlier threads that suggesting people to keep track of individual wounds is not a good idea around here.
A Light wound might be a 4" long, 1" deep gash across your abdomen. Or a 0.4" hole through your left forearm, shattering your ulna, bleeding at a respectable pace and causing extreme discomfort -- that's about the least dangerous kind of wound that a human can receive from a low-powered firearm that still causes a significant decrease in performance. It's not hard to fix, certainly. It might have missed all organs and all the major arteries. But it's not just getting "dinged". You are extremely unlikely to die of that, but if you do not take care of the wound at all it might happen. Similarly a Moderate wound could represent a 0.8" hole through your abdomen, making short work of your intestines. That's a sub-par hit with a Heavy Pistol, and could conceivably make Routine tasks Challenging (TNs from 3 to 5). Nothing immediately life-threatening, unlikely to bleed to death, but bound to make living slightly more difficult if nothing is done about it. For a glimpse at Serious wounds, one can always try to fit this cavity inside the human torso in such a way as to not take out anything vital. Complications indeed. ;)
My problem is with the idea that you can take that Serious wound, be handicapped for a while and then crawl back to your High Lifestyle hideout to wait it out. There is never any danger of your condition worsening, let alone of dying from any wound that is not Deadly. That's what I'd like to change. In the span of a firefight, or even the whole "action-phase" of a normal shadowrun, bleeding rules for non-Deadly wounds don't make getting wounded any worse. It's all about the Afterwards. |
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Jul 15 2004, 06:53 PM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689 |
by "dinged" I was kind of hoping you'd understand that what I meant was basically along the lines of what you described, you're hit, you're bleeding, it ain't gonna kill you unless you're a total idiot and don't treat it.
You can die of a papercut. Any breech of your body's defenses can be life-threatening. Chances are the papercut isn't going to do much more than make you go "ow! Dammit!" and that's it, but you never know. And you have to remember the scope of this conversation. To MY understanding we're talking immediately following the cut and like, the next 5 or 10 minutes after that. You NEVER MENTIONED AFTER THE FIREFIGHT. What you said I agree with absolutely. It makes no sense that your condition won't worsen. If you had asked me about that I would say the chance to worsen after the fact is a definite for anything moderate or above. I would say up to 5 boxes could reasonably be healed by taking it easy and applying basic first aid. Anything higher than that and you need medical treatment. Sure 5 boxes isn't "serious" but its still HALF YOUR LIFE BAR. I never really liked the fact that I can be just a smidge below serious and not suffer the TNs for it. Sure as a player I love it, but that's the cheese dick approach. I want it to be sorta realistic, not annoying so, but enough to be "ooh I got shot. This isn't good." everytime I do get hit. All we were discussing was clotting after getting shot. The chance to NOT bleed to death ON THE SPOT. Complications aren't going to occur within that timeframe unless the wounds are all in the same area or you've just taken like, a serious wound all in one go. Everything I said before. SO like I just said, the timeframe I'm talking about is like, 10 minutes maximum after you've been hit. Enough time to stop the loss of our precious blood and hopefully be getting the frag out of dodge. Trying to HEAL is different than clotting. You NEED A GOD DAMN DOCTOR. ;) First aid will do it to a point, but unless you have someone looking after your wounds who knows what they're doing (or is using magic...but that's cheating. :D) you're probably suffering some sort of (semi)permanent damage. At the very least you're out of commission for MUCH longer trying to heal it without medical attention. The body can perform miracles of healing, but they aren't all that fast. And keep in mind all of this doesn't need to be applied EVERY TIME. Make the judgement call of "Is this really worth it?" A lot of times I don't see how this would be overly useful. Every once in a while use the rules for creating that sense of life hanging by a thread, or making the runners have to think on their feet, or what have you. I would probably apply this stuff to serious and deadly wounds because then it would matter. I'm sure a LOT of people say "oh I took a serious, but its only +3TN, I can still throw grenades and kill them" when instead they need to be thinking "oh shit I just got holed big time. I need to get my ass to safety and hope I make it to the street doc with enough time and cred to spare otherwise I'm going to be up the creek without a paddle" I for one have been guilty of that reasoning (I blame it on Fallout's miracle drug toting stimpacks. 1 HP? No sweat! Stimpack'll make you good as new! :grinbig:) but I try to go for the second one when I can. I've had almost no experience playing these games due to no friends, no money, conflicting times, etc, etc. Thus I sadly don't get the kind of exposure I need to be that good RPer. |
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Jul 15 2004, 07:37 PM
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#79
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
To my understanding, we were talking about rules such as the ones above. Here they are again:
Like I said before, it takes 6 hours before a Light wound goes over to Moderate wound with these rules, and only if you have a poor Body and don't do anything about the wound. 3 hours from Moderate to Serious, and still only if you don't roll a 5 with Body (70% of no continuous damage with Body 3 at Moderate). It still takes an hour to lose consciousness after getting hit with a Serious wound with those rules, with a 60% chance of continous damage from a Serious with a BOD 3 char. I do agree that rolling for such things isn't worth the trouble in many cases, when it's a given that someone will heal the wound in short order even if the character gets very unlikely and doesn't roll the required TN for the wound level. I tend to run games in places where immediately medical aid can be difficult to get, even in the form of a Treat or Heal spell, and I'm considering the use of SR rules for a medieval fantasy and a non-fantasy RL game, so my priorities are very different from those of the average SRner. I'm not a good roleplayer either. That's why I'm the :vegm: |
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Jul 15 2004, 10:07 PM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689 |
I didn't read anything but the TNs because I didn't feel like getting bogged down in math, which I now abhor because whatever retard decided I needed to know it obviously made physical love to mathbooks on a daily basis and so had to appease it because obviously the math books were the dominant force.
Algebra 1 is the absolute god damn limit for useful applications. Special jobs like engineering require it. Everything else, doesn't. Urgh. I hate shitheads who decide things without thinking. If it were optional, fine. College won't be much better but at least I get to choose my courses after Freshman year and 1/2way into my sophomore one. FSC starts earlier with its major requirements if what they told us at orientation was true. Err anyways I also didn't bother figuring out the times simply because clotting doesn't take hours. It takes minutes. Resisting disease is another roll altogether and so massively complicated that it makes little sense to go anywhere beyond a simple roll, and then only when you got shot and decided to roll around in nuclear waste for a few hours. Healing process itself is yet another roll altogether and that takes days regardless of what wound it is. A papercut still heals over the course of a few days, a stab wound much longer, a gunshot potentially longer than that depending on if it penetrates straight through, knocks around, or gets lodged somewhere where it shouldn't. A bullet alone isn't going to just sit there and complicate things unless its not removed, and then only after a few days. Of course if its lodged in like, a muscle or an organ it'll probably do damage in short order, but that's a serious wound or better which would already require medical attention if I were in command of anything at all. Yes, I'd argue the GM even if I were a player. Moderate wound will probably give you +1TN to all actions involving <blank> if not removed, worsening over time. Its certainly not going to be in the time it takes to heal a moderate wound by yourself. I'm not trying to pretend to possess a doctorate in medicine, but even taking an anatomy+physiology course gives me enough know-how to slap the writers of these rules with a fish. |
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Jul 16 2004, 03:01 AM
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#81
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I use calculus not quite on a daily basis, but at the least once a month, more often a few times a week. It's pretty useful for me. Funny, it's also been useful for the people who've asked me questions they couldn't do themselves because they agreed with your philosophy. ~J |
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Jul 16 2004, 04:24 AM
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#82
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I figured "Body times 60 minutes" was basic enough math for any SR player or GM, since you already have to figure out things like Essence costs of different grades of cyberware.
So what you're saying is, regardless of the wound, it will always be clotted in a few minutes, or you will have bled to death already? Ie bleeding to death over a course of anything more than 5-10 minutes is a complete impossibility? Okay then. I can almost buy that. I suppose most wounds that wouldn't be clotted within that time would have bled you to death already. Then, assuming bleeding is the primary cause of Continuous Damage, the rules would be much more realistic if I cut down the rate to about BOD x 20/10/5/1 CTs, which would mean that an average human would lose consciousness in 9 minutes after receiving a Light wound to the lower leg that severed whatever is the largest artery around there. After taking a Serious wound to the thigh, blowing a 1" hole to the femoral artery, the average human would lose consciousness within 3 minutes without any medical aid. A hell of a lot more lethal than I envisioned, but what the heck. I don't mind killing PCs in the name of science. |
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Jul 16 2004, 04:35 AM
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#83
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Er, I would think that should never, ever be the definition of a light wound.
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Jul 16 2004, 04:39 AM
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#84
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Why? It doesn't really hurt you that bad. A .22 LR can easily do it, and it would allow you to function even better than most other examples of Light Wounds I can think of would. I mean, taking this in your gut would have to be a Light Wound, and that would probably hurt a whole lot more.
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Jul 16 2004, 04:49 AM
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#85
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I disagree that for SR wound level purposes that getting gut shot is a light wound. That's a moderate at least, think of the wound penalties involved there. |
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Jul 16 2004, 04:57 AM
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#86
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
A Light wound turns an average task (4) into a nontrivial task (5). On three dice, that's a drop of an expected success and a half to a single success.
That's not minor. ~J |
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Jul 16 2004, 05:15 AM
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#87
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
It's minor compared to a moderate or a serious! :D
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Jul 16 2004, 05:34 AM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689 |
Can you cite some examples as to how calculus would be useful in every day life? Keep in mind that I'm not saying you can't apply it, only that its not needed. That's what I mean by "useful". Should have re-worded it but oh well. I took pre-calculus and I don't see why most people need that to do their "job". I use "'s because depending on how you define job depends on whether or not what people get paid to do qualifies. Example: job defined as purpose means I slap you and find a new word. Unless you're one of the few people whose job is something they truly feel they are put in this planet to do that is. And its not like I've just randomly pulled this out of my ass either. I've gone through high school. I've walked into stores, seen people working, etc, etc. For just about everything i've seen algebra is the limit to do that job, and that's pushing it. Basic stuff like addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division is all that's needed. Work in a hardware store and are responsible for measuring stuff, assembling orders, etc, etc? That's one of those special jobs that require something a bit more than algebra, depending on what you're doing. Even then it really depends. The measurements don't take months of know-how, but assembly might. Architects, engineers, scientists, blah blah blah <insert related stuff here> are all specialized tasks. Cashiers don't need math. There are a LOT more cashiers than there are scientists. Secretary doesn't need it. Temp workers don't need it. Janitors don't need it. Teachers don't need it (beyond algebra 1 which I'm attributing averages, means, modes, etc to) unless they teach math (duh. :)). I could probably go on but I don't think its necessary. Think about the billions of people on this planet. Think of the number who aren't into heavy sciences and the like. The small % of people who use math all the time to perform their jobs are VASTLY outnumbered by the many who don't. I don't count required to get a degree in blah de blah. I'm specifically talking about functioning on the job. Anyways...
No I am not. "Few" is the word I don't like. We'll call "minutes" to include up to 1 hour, 0-60. Bleeding to death over the course of over 5-10 minutes is certainly possible, but not likely for most wounds. By that I mean most wounds that a hospital would probably see. The serious/deadly wound victims aren't as common as the moderately wounded. "I got shot in the arm." "My chest hurts." "there's a knife stuck in my leg." Those kinds. And like I said before, controlling bleeding is really quite easy. Whether you bleed to death or not is really dependent on the first few minutes following the trauma. Presuming you haven't just deflated your lung (which happens if its punctured) or had your kidney/stomach holed (I think there's something else that will cause a significant amount of internal bleeding if ruptured. I think its the aorta but I don't clearly remember) chances are you aren't bleeding to death if basic first aid is applied. First aid entails stopping the bleeding, immobilizing broken limbs/impaled objects, and basically trying to keep them as calm and relaxed as possible until the EMTs arrive. Deadly wound would be the punctured lung, kidney, stomach, or what have you. Unfortunately SR's damage isn't terribly good for this effect because a wound like that is certainly life-threatening but you aren't going to lose consciousness because of it 100% of the time. I presume that the basics of First aid aren't changing in 60 some odd years, but the first aid kit's contents will, namely the drugs used. I'm sure there are some coagulents in there somewhere that can be safely administered to a patient that won't cause blockages in arteries and veins. There's also probably some super fancy salt water concoction that stimulates blood production while simultaneously giving your body something to squeeze around (salt water) in the mean time. If not that certainly a trauma patch does that. I figure if your pal is unconscious and bleeding like niagra falls you're going to use a trauma patch and permanent damage be damned. Honestly, if you know there's no hope of medical treatment why bother rolling at all? If someone's a medic they've probably got a trauma patch or two tucked away, or feel confident enough to give it ago the ol' fashioned way. |
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Jul 16 2004, 05:52 AM
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#89
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
I've been thinking about this for a while. Wouldn't blood loss be sort of a stun type wound? A body will pass out from blood loss before it dies. Perhaps you could make players resist stun wounds every minute or so from untreated wounds. Say a L wound might be 4 or 5L Stun every minute. An M wound could be 4 or 5M Stun every minute; etc. It would eventually overflow into physical and kill someone who didn't get their wound treated, but it wouldn't interfere with combat. It could add tension as the team races their comrade to the clinic with a new check every minute. You could increase the power and the time if once a minute is too much. It even makes sense that the damage level starts to increase after significant overflow damage. When you've bled that much, clotting gets harder. Would this work?
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Jul 16 2004, 06:39 AM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
Be sure to give your Otoku some first aid for those nasty paper-cuts. "Oh no, I'm going to die in 14 minutes!" :eek: :rotfl:
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Jul 16 2004, 02:53 PM
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#91
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Okay, let's put the figures back up to Body x 100CT/30CT/10CT/1CT. The average human now has ~30 minutes after being shot in the stomach with a .357 Magnum JSP before black-out. Starting to look good?
Ruptured aorta = death in, I think, 10-20 seconds for most humans. Apart from hitting the central nervous system, the aorta is the best possible hit location. After that you've got the carotid (and, obviously, brachiocephalic) arteries, the heart and the thoracic/abdominal aorta. Only after those I would start considering the lungs, liver or kidneys particularly lethal targets. AFAIK, you can survive for a long time with just one lung. It will still take a minute or several to bleed to death from a ruptured liver, kidney or most other internal organs -- far longer than the 1 box/(BOD) CTs of a Deadly wound allowes the average human to survive. We should get things in perspective. Having your leg blown off at the knee is, IMO, a nice example of a Serious wound -- same for an arm blown off, or a flattened lung, or a ruptured kidney, or having most of your intestines riddled. None of those can reliably kill an adult human in less than a minute, let alone 18 seconds, and one can still function (shoot back) after receiving any of them. By definition, they cannot be Deadly wounds. Then Moderate is one step down. Shattered lower leg, tricep torn to shreds, the aforementioned 0.8" hole in the gut, the obiquitous pistol/AR shot in the shoulder, etc. I already did Light. Deadly: Reliable near-instant incapacitation and death in less than 30 seconds. Serious: Damage typified by a solid hit with a powerful handgun or an assault rifle. Moderate: Damage typified by a decent hit with a powerful handgun or an assault rifle. Light: Damage typified by a decent hit with a low-powered handgun. The least dangerous types of wounds that cause a significant, immediate drop in performace. The point is, the defining factor of Light through Serious wounds is the degree of performance drop they cause, not the actual lethality of such wounds (since the latter is rounded to zero always). If you do introduce lethality is introduced into the function, it has to be introduced at all levels. Otherwise there is absolutely no additional realism gained, since immediate drop in performance and lethality in the long(er) run often don't go hand in hand. Note that I have not said much about first aid thus far, other than that the all of the above assumes there is none. I completely agree that first aid, especially in the 2060s where both advanced technology and powerful magic is readily available, would be very effective in preventing/stopping continuing damage from most wounds. Like I said, rolling for this is pretty pointless when effective first aid is very close by. Sometimes it isn't. I'd like to have rules for when that happens -- and I know it happens a lot in my games.
Yeah. Paper cut, being shot in the arm with a .380ACP JHP. Potato potato. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jul 16 2004, 02:55 PM |
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Jul 16 2004, 03:02 PM
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#92
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
There was a minor thread about the size of shotguns.
I give you the Remington 870 MCS. Check out the "breaching weapon." Since it uses the same components as the standard shotgun, I'd imagine you could still load it with slugs or shot and have a functional weapon, although the range would absolutely bite. -Siege |
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Jul 16 2004, 06:58 PM
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#93
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
Ok, in light of that I need to either: 1) totally stop trying to get any realism ANYWHERE in my game, or 2) very dramatically change the description I give to injuries. :) |
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Jul 16 2004, 08:19 PM
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#94
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689 |
I thought the aorta was instant death in 8 seconds (what my teacher said) but wasn't overly sure of that.
As far as first aid goes I know you hadn't mentioned it so don't get the feeling i was trying to yell at you. I just wanted to bring it up. Sorry if it seemed like I was being an asshole as that's definitely not my intention. What I hate about SR's damage is the fact that there are no hit locations and loss of functions for getting shot here, there, and everywhere. A shot to the stomach will incapacitate all but the toughest SOBs (we'll call them your runner). They'll be on the ground holding their gut and whining like a baby because it REALLY HURTS from what I've gathered. Kidney will do the same thing. You are on the floor and really unable to do much more than bleed to death. I think if its black you're a goner, I dunno I'm basing that off of what I saw in a Lethal Weapon Movie. :silly: Lung's probably the best bet for a serious wound that you can still function with. You can run, skip, and jump but it'll be painful and not a good idea. Doesn't Raygun's site have some rules for shock? SR needs that too because what you said, the blowing off of a limb (what I've been thinking a serious wound would entail if you got hit in a limb) is probably going to you know, distract the hell out of you. ;) Was it ever decided that the people who wrote these rules knew nothing of what they were doing, or did we give them a medal of merit for trying? Seems to me fools of the highest order had their hands in this but I don't want to be throwing around insults that aren't warranted. I'd like to say "you're an idiot. have a medal of merit." and walk away shaking my head. Talking about the overalls, namely combat. They can get away with Magic and Matrix because they don't exist in the lives of most everyone living today, and from what I've seen they work nicely. Same thing about throwing around insults without merit applies to compliments. ...yeah I've just changed the subject. You wanna make somethin' of it? :D |
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Jul 16 2004, 08:35 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
On aorta, and other blood loss stuff. Your brain can survive 15+ seconds without an supply of oxygen (read: blood) to it. This means your heart and explode, and you'll still be able to get your shots off if you're not overly distracted.
Additionally, for every wound that destroys function primarily through pain, remember that adrenaline, while generally incapable of making you a steely, painless mass-murderering rambo, will serve to dull the effects of the wound for some time. |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:16 PM
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#96
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Lucky us, then, that we have shock to make sure that we are overly distracted. ~J |
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Jul 16 2004, 09:48 PM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689 |
If your heart explodes you spasm and die.
The brain also lasts MUCH longer without O2. I believe its 3 minutes or so without food (blood, oxygen, whatever other nutrients it makes use of) until brain damage occurs, but the brain is still alive and kicking. I think your organs and whatnot can survive for like, 6 hours and then they die. I saw a movie on my A+P class (we saw a LOT of movies actually) and it covered organ legging. Part of it had some specs on organ donors and I know that organs will survive for hours before death. We're talking like, car crash victim or something dies. So long as the organs are in tact (duh) they can be salvaged. That's without being put on ice or anything. Ice slows down their metabolic functions so they last longer (not sure how much). Definitely long enough for the heart-lung machine (invented in the 70's or 80's I think) to be hooked up to them. Rather fascinating stuff, I hope I have time to take more classes like that in college at some point. Adrenaline may help you ignore the effects of a wound, but it sure as hell isn't 100%. Its more like you got shot in the arm but don't notice it because you're hella pissed off (like on the plane in Con Air). You get shot in the kidney and you're still more or less incapacitated. Adrenaline isn't the only thing your body does in a crisis either. The Sympathetic nervous system will dialate/constrict blood vessels, shunt blood supply to unnecessary functions (example: you're running away from a mugger so your body turns off your digestive system and pours the excess into your muscles), and of course release adrenaline. I think it does some other stuff too, but I can't remember. That's the gyst of it though. Parasympathetic makes sure you feel it a day later though. Next day you'll be fine, but the day after you're gonna feel like a truck hit you, backed up, and parked on your body. Doesn't require that much to cause a "crisis" either. A big test will set it off, late night studying, basically anything above the normal rigors of your life will qualify. I'm pretty sure its controlled too, not like "oh I'm running for 1/2 an hour on a treadmill so I'll just pour all the adrenaline I can find into the body." So anyways, Adrenaline would basically function at a moderate wound and cease to be of any real value once you get to serious, which is basically "oops I lost my arm" or "oh damn, there goes my large intestine and a good chunk of the small one too." Because at that point you're so badly screwed up your body isn't going to be functioning terribly well. |
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Jul 16 2004, 10:46 PM
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#98
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Whenever I go to a new doctor, I ask him about the last time he used calculus. I've never recieved any other answer but "when I had to take it to get into medical school". |
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Jul 17 2004, 12:12 AM
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#99
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 325 Joined: 5-May 02 From: Various Planets Across the Galaxy Member No.: 2,689 |
Yeah, I read in this book on Getting into Medical school (I originally wanted to be a doctor but decided the beaurocracy would kill me and my chances of actually making it through the grueling workload and being accepted were too low to bother) that almost everything you "need" to become a doctor is horsecrap as most of it's useless to the profession but somehow required for the major.
Whoever designed these major requirements needs a boot to the head. "liberal arts" my ass. When would that EVER be useful? I fail at college and rely on the uber 1337 liberal arts background to work as a custodian (not to insult them. I actually admire them quite a lot) or a fast food shmuck at Mc.Dumbasses? |
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Jul 17 2004, 12:21 AM
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#100
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The argument is that the courses are designed to teach you how to think critically and analyze things, not that it trains you for a profession; that's the job of a vocational school. Whether or not that has merit is up for debate; I've seen cases in which it certainly appears to, and cases in which it most certainly does not (usually when a Postmodernistic Philosophy teacher or somesuch gets their role confused and thinks they're teaching something that will be critical in and of itself).
~J |
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