[ShadowsOfEurope] Reviews, Let's hear what you think... Options

[JongWK]

[Synner]

[Domino]

I think you are trying to joust windmills at this point Synner. They are unable and/or unwilling to get the point you are trying to make.

[Birdy]

[Kagetenshi]

[Birdy]

[Skeptical Clown]

[Michael]

I picked up Shadows of Europe this past weekend and I've enjoyed the read. Speaking as an American player of Shadowrun, I enjoyed the European history and background. It's nice knowing what is currently happening, but I believe it's just as important to know why they're happening. I think the background presented in the book does a good job of giving you historical reasons for current situations.

In regards to the game direction, I feel it's important for the world to be moving even without the players. While it is true that their incarnation of the world would stop without them, I think the game must always go forward. I like to have a story going on without the players; that way, it always gives them more options.

For instance, I spent a decent amount of time putting together an adventure. I was hoping for it to last for a few weeks, maybe even monthes. It never even started. Maybe it wasn't interesting, maybe I'm a poor GM, or maybe they just had different ideas, but we never got around to it. Due to other stories going on at the same time, totally independent of the players, I was able to present different options, just by them asking around for work. I was able to give some opening lines on what was happening in different area's, tell them about whispers in the shadows, and allow them to direct where they'd like to go. I think, while their story is the most important one, there should always be a few stories going on in the background.

A final note, seeing posters on dumpshock published in a sourcebook is pretty impressive. It's a nice touch of familiarity. It's nice seeing people who you can converse regularly with be successful in a venture. Hopefully, it will lead to me working on a submission. It can't hurt, and by seeing people on a message board you frequent (or lurk at), it makes you feel like you have a decent shot if you put in the effort.

Hope I made some sense.
Michael

[Dutch-DK]

[Kagetenshi]

[Sepherim]

Okay, I know this is a bit late, but I've been away a couple days so I couldn't answer before.

[VoceNoctum]

[Kagetenshi]

A note on my stance: Runners often don't need to know what streets are where, and streets can usually be fiated. However, it's usually a bit more important to know, even if generally, what highways are where.

~J

[VoceNoctum]

[Kagetenshi]

But that's why we buy books, so the GM doesn't have to list off every highway :)

~J

[Thanos007]

[Skeptical Clown]

I regret even mentioning the terms "Fluff" and "Crunch," because I think it sets off peoples' little "Role-playing good, Roll-playing bad, Hulk Smash!" alarms (or vice versa). Once that alarm goes off people just stop thinking and start seeking blood.

I tend to think of game information as having three tiers. Tier 1 information is the kind of information that is of immediate and practical use to all players and gamemasters alike. This is primarily the rules and game statistics that are used in establishing the game world, although it's also the most basic setting information (Shadowrun is a game about the a dark, magical near future; The players are shadowrunners, whose job it is to break into corporate facilities for pay, and other assorted dirty work, etc.)

Second-tier information is material that is a step removed from the characters, useful for players to know but nearly essential for gamemasters to know; this is information like which megacorporation is which and what their essential attributes are, what Seattle is and where the significant places and neighborhoods of the city are, etc, although also some information that's occasionally directly relevant to the players, like availability and critter statistics.

Third-Tier information is comprised of information primarily or exclusively the domain of gamemasters, which includes the contents of books like Threats, deep-seated historical facts, the plots of various powerful entities, and also game stastics that are used for more uncommon situations, like manawarps, or situations that don't directly affect the runners, like corporate statistics.

It's good to have third-tier information. It can even be handy to have an entire book full of third-tier information, sometimes. But in a location guide, I expect it to take up less space than second-tier material. It's supplemental information, as opposed to applicable information.

[Paul]

I think thats an intresting way of classifying information presented, but I do wonder how and when you draw the line?

After all what you call third tier information could suddenly play an essential role in character generation or even a game while so called first tier information becomes of secondary importance to the game.

I'd also take issue with this statement:

[Skeptical Clown]

See, that's not a direct effect. That's an INDIRECT effect. NASA didn't come and hand you Tang personally. Tang reaching your hand was the result of a long chain of events. That's what direct and indirect effects are.

[tjn]

[Kagetenshi]

Not necessarily. FanPro and the writers need a why, but they don't need to tell us all of the why, they just need to use it to come up with the whats. A little why is good, but whats from a single why, if there are enough of them, ought to be reverse-engineerable to at least one sensible why.

~J

[tjn]

[Synner]

I beg to differ on that one, at least as regards SR, my experience is that almost everything that sees print has a Why built in, even if it's unclear - often this doesn't carry down to future writers though. However having the What's detailed the way they are in books like SoE and SoNA should allow a GM a decent run at creating his own Whys.

Getting back on subject while I understand Skeptical's categorization I throughly disagree with it simply because each game dictates different things. Most of my players get to read all the sourcebooks and "fluff" therein. In this way their characters (which almost uniformly have access to Shadowland) have access to everything they want (if they can remember or access it on the fly is something entirely different). For instance, when researching Poland on the flight to Lodz on a mission, they did Shadowland searches and dredged up the file in SoE as well as numerous other handouts I had prepared.

Also Skeptical is taking a throughly functional approach to the material, one that is far too limited from my perspective as a gamer. As a reader I don't think in functional terms. I want some rules (not many SR is complex enough as it is) at the back, lots of background I can use on as many levels as possible (as a player, as a GM, for background, for plothooks, to ground my own plothooks, etc) and customize. This later part is very important as people's games have already covered vacuums in the setting and rules on their own. New rules and developments can fly in the face of what has been established in someone's game so writing stuff is a balancing act (Crimsondudes POV if I read him correctly). Skeptical's first category is only really necessary in a corebook. While sourcebooks are known as such because they provide source material that covers the setting on multiple levels that overlap his second and third categorization (although I disagree that "third-tier" information. The vast majority of current day players prefer it that way).

However people are failing to make an important distinction here. There are two issues at stake there is "format" and there is "contents" (something I've tried to underline before with regards to VoceNoctum's posts). These should ideally be discussed as distinct issues. As relates to SoE, and the subject of this thread, the former sets a style, depth and limits upon the latter.

VoceNoctum's and Sketpical's, while not commenting on the different aspects, have been aimed indistinctly against both the contents and the format. However from what I've been understood of their complaints they're essentially pointing fingers at the format, since this dictates the type of contents(not only of SoE but of the Shadows of and other recent books).

For instance it seems a lot of what VoceNoctum's comments seem to indicate he'd be okay with Seattle-format books for sprawls rather than the Shadows of format. That is one issue. If a "Shadows of" book does not allow for individual locations or gangs within a city (although SoE had both here and there) then it isn't really reasonable to expect them in such a book (especially when there is already a reference on hand to compare to) - hence someone who has a problem with this (or the fact that its abotu distant unusable countries, etc) is actually complaining about a given "format" of book (and assumes all future "Shadows of" books follow the same style).

Another issue entirely is evaluating the contents provided by a certain book within an established format. Some of VoceNoctum's comments regarding strong government, though arguably unfounded, are directly aimed at the contents rather than the format while most of Skeptical's complaints for instance are appeear to be derived from the limitations imposed by the "format".

VoceNoctum - At least as regards the statement about "Shadowrun evolving" the problem is you are implying that evolution means that the foundations or basics have essentially changed. However, many of the people who have been replying to you have been argueing that the fundamentals are still the same, SR has just grown out, but the core is still exactly the same. So their statement isn't necessarily contradictory, evolution does mean change but that change can be attained by simply adding new depths rather than changing what was there.

[Thanos007]

What a long strange trip it's been. But worth it.

[Skeptical Clown]