 [ShadowsOfEurope] Reviews, Let's hear what you think... |
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 Jul 17 2004, 09:55 PM
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#51
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 404  |
I've only read the UK section so far but you did a good job Peter. The feel of the place was right from my eyes, even if i now live in the Stinkfens :D
No on to read the rest of the book |
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Jul 17 2004, 11:07 PM
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#52
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Thanks, Bagpuss. A significant part of the credit for UK's atmosphere needs to go to Alistair/Beeste though. He nailed Anonymous Botch's English "tone" perfectly and all I had to do was run with it.
I hope people liked the surprises and the twists we added to the original London sb material, especially the P. and the whole counterculture revolution feel. |
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Jul 18 2004, 10:30 PM
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#53
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 26-February 02 From: The western side on the Danish side in the Oeresound-region Member No.: 105 |
Cool enough. I got caught. :D |
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Jul 20 2004, 10:49 AM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 379 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Earth Member No.: 1,274 |
Well, it could be worse - you could live in London! Admittedly, a LOT was cut out and I originally included deeper descriptions about the sprawls and Toxic / Wild Zones. These had to be condensed into smaller sections due to wordcount limitations. Oh well. time to press for sticking all the stuff leftover into any old space I can in future sourcebooks. Thanks for the commentry there Bagpuss - its great to think the feel came over correctly. That's what matters to me as a GM and writer. Now, how to deal with the floating ramshackle blackmarket swamptown of Norwich... |
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Jul 20 2004, 05:03 PM
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#55
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Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 404 |
I never knew you visited Norwich :smokin: But yeh more stuff on the Wild lands and toxic zones would be cool. Lets hope a great big slice of the cut stuff is put up on the website |
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Jul 21 2004, 11:12 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
Got it today. Haven't finished reading it yet. From what I've seen so far, I like the basic smaller scale descriptions of places, but I'm disappointed in the overall arc of where Europe is heading. And now that I see it, I can see what it was about Shadows of America that I didn't care for either. It's nationalism and regional conflict. It doesn't work for me. Governments and wars are an ill match for Shadowrun. I thought the whole point of the Native American uprisings and the Eurowars was to basically eliminate government as a factor, and warfare as a valid form of conflict. If governments are powerful enough to take action, shadowrunning doesn't really work.
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Jul 21 2004, 11:28 PM
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#57
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I don't really agree with that. Russia even now is a weak government with powerful corporations pulling the strings behind the puppets. They have massive violent crime and smuggling; paranoia is rampant and everyone is expected to cheat on their taxes; the environment is falling apart; and thousands of other problems are compounding themselves in the background. Yet they find time to fight wars. The same is true of almost every African nation. Wars, rebellions, corporate powers all increase criminal activities, not the opposite. The nations are just faces for the corporations in SoNA expect Tir and the UCAS; the former is falling apart and the latter is attempting to become a superpower once again... The struggle to succeed against the corporations only leads to more shadowrunners (both as agents fall to the wayside and as operatives of secret agencies). |
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Jul 21 2004, 11:38 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 10-April 04 From: Chicago, IL...Ich vermisse Deutschland. Member No.: 6,230 |
I forget who said those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, but that's the history of Europe from, I daresay, since the Medieval period. I actually like the neo-Feudalistic tone that is arising in Europe, leading to conflict between the old and new powers that be. Something about the SoE that one has to understand is that it does depict a believable Europe. Having spent lots of time there, I can see where this all comes from and why it's believable. Governments aren't destroyed in Shadowrun; they are still powers, but to a lesser extent than the Megacorps, although that is still in debate (due to a debate of the word extraterritorial at Fanpro, for instance). Also look at Europe in light of the view that nationality still defines or is the defining characteristic of many people. To name names, look at Cochise (Tut mir leid, wenn ich dich damit beleidige. Habs so nicht gemeint, aber möchte ich nur deine Nationalität zeigen, damit man weiß, dass Nationalität bzw. Staatsangehörigkeit doch noch eine Rolle spielt). The guy is the best rules lawyer I've met, and probably one of the best at fanpro.com. And he's German. Nationalism does still define people, something that isn't over with. Remember the line in Fields of Fire: Sometimes people want something very bad and compromise is not a fitting solution to whatever the problem might be. That is a validity for war. Don |
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Jul 22 2004, 12:14 AM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
I agree that it portrays a believable Europe. I just don't think a believable Europe is necessarily the best Europe for Shadowrun.
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Jul 22 2004, 01:10 AM
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#60
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Honestly I don't see where you're getting the regional conflict bit. With the exception of Poland, Europe is pretty peaceful (even compared to North Am), what's more its moving towards greater integration - to the benefit of some. There are numerous culture shocks bubbling under the surface but that's a fact of life in the culturally diverse global village. If anything Europe is about multi-layered intrigue. Things are not clear cut. There are no strict distinctions between political shadowruns, economic, military or media ones. Your employer one day might be an Alta Commissione godfather who wants the dirt on an NEEC politician to give the French aristos to keep on their good side in the impending war, and the next Mr Brackhaus might have you working for S-K sabotaging a Red Army depo in Warsaw to win the AW revolutionaries' trust. Everyone is linked to everyone some way. Corps are in bed with governments, governments are in bed with old money aristos, old money aristos are in bed with the Church, the Church is in bed with the Mafia, the mafia is in bed with the corps and so on. A good example of this is how Saeder-Krupp is addressed in the book. With the exception of the AGS, Austria and Poland, the AAA apparently only gets a passing mention here and there. But if you look at the book carefully you'll find Lofwyr and S-K have their claws in every single chapter and their influence is actually pervasive - it just doesn't always show up in the places you'd traditionally expect for a megacorp. Political and social intrigue are just as much an element in European runs as underworld interests and corporate manipulation. And to some extent the very status quo of the Sixth World is fueling the fires of nationalism, fascism, kneejerk socialism, environmentalism and utopism that are lacking in current day political ideologies and making the political scene much more vibrant. I don't know about you, but personally I find this extremely fertile terrain for shadowrunning. Regarding "nationalisms" in Europe especifically, I think you're missing the point entirely. There is a small but immensely meaningful difference between the way Europeans think of "nationality" and "nationalism". We have buckets full of the former but only a fair share of the latter. Europe is not "a great melting pot", it never has been. People are still fighting and dying for pieces of land that have been in dispute for 900 years! If I travel 1500 kms today from Lisbon in the right direction, I will cross 5 countries, seven distinct language groups and nine ethnic groups. Call the Portuguese Spaniards like one American artist recently did and get booed off stage by 30000 people. For that matter, call the wrong Basque a Spaniard, or Corsican a Frenchman, and you're asking to get punched. This has all to do with "nationality". The same Portuguese who'd knock you over for saying Lisbon is a provincial capital of Spain works hand in hand with the Spanish and owes them 55% of the country's tourism and trade balance. Spanish women are prized and we root for Spanish football teams right after our national ones. That's not to say we're not very different, but there's a type of fraternity and unity amongst us that is almost inexplicable until you realise how much Europe has changed in the past 50 years and what it's seen in the past 1000. We prize our "nationalities" but we also have an underlying belief in a common fraternity which can't be fully explained. Comments like "Old Europe" are laughable to anyone here. "Nationalism" is also different here. It's a fact of life alright, however unlike what we see in America, it is deeply tied to our cultures and heritage (which date back not decades or a couple of centuries, but in some cases millenia). It has to do with a perception of history which is inherently different. To paraphase someone's quote in the book, "In America a hundred years is a long time, in Europe a hundred miles is a long way." The nationalisms or cultural shocks described in SoE are actually tamer than those in real life. The reactionary trend people here have described as neo-feudalistic is present but it has more to do with the elites coming to recognize their hold on power has slipped into the hands of others (the megas) and using nationalism as a platform for grasping at power again. This, like other trends, provides the focus of political intrigue and as is suggested in the NEEC section to some extent the governments and the corps believe they stand to gain by cooperating on (apparently) even footing. |
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Jul 22 2004, 01:19 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Vigo (Spanish Kingdom) Member No.: 1,446 |
And you say that powerful governments don't get along with shadowrunning. Shadowrunning has nothing to do with the contractors, but with two key figures: "deniable assets" and "keeping your hands of the dirt". Governments like both options. Though they might use on times especial forces in their army, those are not deniable (too much time spent in training, money in equipment...) and are easier to track down in case the drek hits the fan. And, obviously, using the military inside the country is a big risk for the enormous problems it can arrise in the public opinion if it becomes known.
So, shadowrruners are as useful to governments as they are to corps, for the same exact reasons. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jul 22 2004, 01:47 AM
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#62
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Guests |
Never really saw the difference between the various players in Europe and anywhere else. [EDIT] By which I mean, I see no difference in that not applying in NorthAm, for instance. Hell, in Seattle alone. There is such a plethora of self-interested entities out there willing to hire runners, and they basically form the entire community. So it's not like I need to be told that you can be running for the Vory one day and the Vatican the next, following by a stint in Lisbon with mercs before a jaunt over to jolly old England for some work with Transys. I can do the same thing in Seattle. With the language and culture problems. Runners are like lawyers--sooner or later, almost everyone need them.[/EDIT]
Europe has always been described as S-K's playground, so it's not surprising except in the lack of overtness Only punched you say? But by how many of their friends? This post has been edited by Crimsondude 2.0: Jul 22 2004, 02:43 AM |
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Jul 22 2004, 02:05 AM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
The reason governments don't mix with shadowrunning is that governments, even corrupt ones, work in the interest of society. It might not be a compassionate interest in society, but it's an interest. It's in a government's interest to control crime. A government that is functional enough to have policemen, provide welfare, or enforce environmental laws is antithetical to Shadowrun, because in Shadowrun all authority is illegitimate. That's what lets Shadowrunners be heroic (in a very cynical fashion.) If that authority isn't thoroughly and totally corrupt, then the Shadowrunners aren't anarchist antiheroes; they're just plain thugs. That's why in the beginning, governments were rarely detailed. That's why there is no police, other than corrupt private contracters. Because government was unimportant; it was a sham, and while people still worked for government, they weren't just powerless, but shameless shills for corporate interests. It was the corporations who had power, and the corporations are entirely void of any ethicality whatsoever. That's why they are always valid targets for Shadowrunners.
Further, on a practical level, if police are at all competent or present in large numbers, then Shadowrunning becomes pretty darned impractical, on a multitude of levels. I can see why decisions in this book were made, and I cannot fault their logic, but I don't think they mesh with Shadowrun. I don't think governments are necessary for Europe; they're even less necessary than they are in the Americas, really. Europe has cultures that transcend government; the French would be the French no matter what the state of their rulership. Well, ok, I can fault some logic: I find it difficult to believe that France had enough leverage to work out the kind of deals it has with the megacorporations. Granted, I haven't finished this book yet. My opinions are based on not merely this book, however, but also other plotlines and books in the recent past. I'll weigh in and see if my criticisms hold for this book as well when I'm done. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jul 22 2004, 02:46 AM
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#64
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Guests |
But for the millions of people who lived in countries that may have had legitimate governments, and don't live in arcologies or self-contained little universes unto themselves, governments are necessary for no other reason than to give them the impression a) that someone is in control, and b) in representative governments, they are that "someone."
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Jul 22 2004, 03:00 AM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563 |
Then how do you explain crime in oh, say... New York city. Or Los Angeles. Or Chicago. Or London. Or Paris. Or Moscow. Or... well you get the point. Thanos |
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Jul 22 2004, 03:15 AM
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#66
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Ok I got it today and so far have only read in detail the sections on France, Faeries and part of Italy ;) (yay I'm SR immortal!) I really like it. My brain is already burning with ideas to set something up. I like the idea of nobles, apparently recreating history, maybe a king or maybe heading back to the Bastille again. and Belgium being overrun again.
I really love Brittany! I have some relatives I'd like to indroduce to that fog by the way, anyone got a contact number for the druids? I did notice that Portugal has roughly the same population as all of Scandanavia. hmmm. for who ever wrote the part on magic in Europe (Tim banned the book from the bed room, it's in my study right now, for what you wrote about Wicca,thank you. very very good on all counts. |
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Jul 22 2004, 03:16 AM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
Crime in modern New York is stealing a car or knocking over a gas station. Shadowrunners break into highly secure facilities, steal highly sensitive corporate data, often exchange in gunfights, and then escape high-speed through the city streets. You try that in a modern day New York, or Seattle, or Paris, you're going to get caught. End of story. Yet in the vast majority of shadowruns, the runners get away. Why? Because while the targets themselves are often in well-guarded, secured locations, much of the city is a lawless urban wasteland. And even in the place where Lone Star (or whomever) might have a presence, they're corrupt, incompetent, or both.
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Jul 22 2004, 03:41 AM
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#68
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Really? I was a bit dissapointed in Brittany. |
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Jul 22 2004, 03:44 AM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 265 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bangkok (sometimes Paris) Member No.: 332 |
We got comments on the art, but can anyone tell us what they think of the corps logos?
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Jul 22 2004, 08:09 AM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 10-April 04 From: Chicago, IL...Ich vermisse Deutschland. Member No.: 6,230 |
I like most of them. Pity Proteus isn't there. It's really interesting to see the logos and think about giving some of the AAs a real face. My hat's off to all of you on that count.
Don |
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Jul 22 2004, 08:22 AM
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#71
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Hi Snow, you're one of the people I'm hoping will review the book, since I know your expectations were high.
France - I hope you liked France and Brittany; Otaku Mike and crew really didn't take to the return to artistocracy or monarchy in the local France sb, but I think their twist on the situation is rather unique and far more believable. Note France isn't the only place where this neo-aristocratic movement is creeping in though... Portugal - We're only lagging slightly behind the Scands these days and that doesn't count the Black Tide up North and the Great Brazilian Exodus down here... Italy - If you haven't yet, read Italy carefully, there are a few surprises in there I know you'll appreciate and IMHO a pretty decent treatment of the RCC. Wicca - Though a lot of editing and rewriting by several people went into it, it was my pleasure. More soon. shadd4d - There's a post-Shockwaves Proteus one upcoming, I'm not sure if it passed muster but it might be in B:ADL along with a new DeMeKo one. |
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Jul 22 2004, 08:34 AM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 10-April 04 From: Chicago, IL...Ich vermisse Deutschland. Member No.: 6,230 |
Cool. I'm already planning on picking up B:ADL on general principle. There is a logo on the last page of Shockwaves as an underlay, but it's rather difficult to make out, as is, unfortunately, the FBV logo (it does exactly what you said, making it difficult to make out).
Don |
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Jul 22 2004, 08:57 AM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 439 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .se Member No.: 625 |
Ahh them catholics ** hint ** hint ** nudge ** nudge ** :D Today; Portugal has about 10.5, Sweden is just below 9, Denmark at 5.5, Finland at 5.2 and Norway at 4.5. So currently it would be about 2.5:1 in the scandinavian favour. Mmm ... perhaps we did a calculation and estimation error here somewhere or perhaps we can chalk it up to alot of immigrants from Amazonia. I also think we mention something about the usual horrors of VITAS and the return of mentioned disease, mmm what else can we blame ... A lot of warm winters so there was less breeding going on. |
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Jul 22 2004, 09:17 AM
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#74
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Target Group: Members Posts: 26 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 280 |
Denmark is the only country with a decline in population in the Union comparing 2063 to today. In addition to the Black Tide, they were also hit very hard by VITAS, killing 20% of the population down there.
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Jul 23 2004, 12:22 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Interesting point. Actually, over in the forums of fanpro.com there are many discussion that boil down to the point that many players want more believability. They demand a world that is believable and logic (not necessarily realistic, with magic and all), that does not revolve around shadowrunners: Runners are a part of this world. But they do not define it. If there is a hired security corp instead of a real police force there should be a reason for it, other than "it makes life easier for shadowrunners". If a city turns into a wasted urban war zone there should be a reason, other than "it's a cool background for runs". I'm glad to hear that the SoE authors took the "believable" way instead of "kewl". There were loads of "kewl" ideas when Shadowrun was first created. Some are in fact great, others required some work to iron them out (millions of Amerindians coming from nowhere, cannibalistic restaurants in Berlin...). I see the game world like a movie set or theatre stage: Not every prop will be touched by an actor, not every extra will be spoken to or looked at by the heroes of the story, but everything and everyone should have a believable function (or at least pretend to do so). The set should work even when the heroes are not present - just like the world of Shadowrun should be an interesting and working place if you don't play shadowrunners but something else. I've always liked how the world of Cyberpunk 2020 is presented: The urban mercenary/edgerunner campaign is suggested but there is plenty of possibilities for other campaigns. IMHO Shadowrun is too much focused on shadowrunners. While sourcebooks are interesting to read and the concept of shadowland documents is nice everything is presented from a runner point of view, focused on their interests and opinions. It does not provide much information beyond that. It took 14 years until there was a book giving some details about everyday life! But long before that we had a gazillion guns, knew about global conspiracies and immortal elves, used cyberware so expensive and weird you have to ask where the market for that stuff is and could buy an aircraft carrier if we wanted... |
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