 ambidexterity questions, What exactly are the limits? |
  |
 Jul 20 2004, 04:59 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 19-July 03 Member No.: 4,982  |
I was curious if a character with the full 8 points of ambidexterity could in theory use two shotguns...If the character had high enough strength to handle the insane recoil. Could a big troll in theory use a pair of shotguns like a human/dwarf/elf use pistols?
|
 |
 
|
|
Jul 20 2004, 05:28 AM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
No, by canon it's specifically stated pistols sized weapons or smaller, including SMG's.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 20 2004, 05:59 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 897 Joined: 26-February 02 From: TIME OUT Member No.: 1,989 |
i would let them use 2 shotguns, but id require some kind of strength requirement, but i'm not fully canon
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 20 2004, 06:03 AM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 104 Joined: 20-July 04 From: Oregon Member No.: 6,498 |
I would figure a troll of good size would be able to, but alas yeah a str penalty would be needed. Also what about the reload, thats gonna take quite a bit.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 20 2004, 02:53 PM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
And don't forget, double all uncompensated recoil if said troll uses burst fire mode. :eek:
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 20 2004, 11:18 PM
Post
#6
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Not if you get Marathon-style shotguns :) "I won't waste my time trying to explain the loading mechanism to you; your primitive mind could never grasp its complex nature." ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 20 2004, 11:42 PM
Post
#7
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 104 Joined: 20-July 04 From: Oregon Member No.: 6,498 |
So very true, hehe. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 21 2004, 12:03 AM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Madison, Wi Member No.: 521 |
The cannon doesn't say that uncompensated recoil is doubled. It says that recoil of one weapon carries to the other. However I do have some standard questions about this... So an adept with improved pistols skill of 6 rolls 12 dice per attack? Then they can increase it to 18 with combat pool ... eek 1) So with akimbo the character is attacking x2 as often? 2) What if the character gets two smarlink, one in each hand. With a min str of 3 and short range a character would roll on average (round down) left pistol: 12 dice +0 tn = 6 success right pistol: 12 dice +1 tn = 4 success left pistol: 12 dice +1 tn = 4 success right pistol: 12 dice +3 tn = 2 success Now if the character has 2 smartlinks, one in each hand his numbers would be. left pistol: 12 dice -2 tn = 11 success right pistol: 12 dice -1 tn = 8 success left pistol: 12 dice -1 tn = 8 success right pistol: 12 dice +1 tn = 4 success As you can see you double the effectiveness of the character. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 21 2004, 12:06 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 897 Joined: 26-February 02 From: TIME OUT Member No.: 1,989 |
only one smartlink works to your advantage by canon. I, however, usually allow both to work, it only makes sense
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 21 2004, 12:07 AM
Post
#10
|
|||
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
That is explicitly banned in canon, you always get a +2 TN to both guns IIRC.
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 21 2004, 12:13 AM
Post
#11
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
He was talking about a troll firing two shotguns. In that case, he would not only have double uncompensated recoil but it would carry over.
Yes. You can fire both guns with one action. For example, if you have two Sub machine guns set on burst fire, you could fire a burst from each gun with one simple action. The adept that has tons of dice from powers is the only type of character that can effectively use two guns. If you built your character around that, I can not see any problem with your character being good at it. Maybe a Magician with Enhance Aim would work too.
Look at page 112 of the core rules, bottom-right under the heading "Using a second firearm". You can not use smartlinks, smart goggles, or laser sights if you are using two firearms. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jul 21 2004, 12:16 AM
Post
#12
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 27-January 04 Member No.: 6,025 |
Under the Shotgun rules in SR3, any uncompensated recoil penaltys are doubled. Really makes that Gas Vent IV worth it ;) Damn, too slow. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 21 2004, 12:43 AM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,010 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Neither smartlink works, and if you're aiming at different targets, that certainly makes a lot more sense than otherwise. ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 21 2004, 01:28 AM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Madison, Wi Member No.: 521 |
Sorry, I should I have stated that beyond the cannon would you allow either
A. Two smartlinks (where does the cannon forbid this again?) B. Assuming A is ok, a character with two smartlink have a -2 tn? Looking beyond cannon doesn't it seem like it would be possible? If nothing else maybe allow the character to have a linked two smartlink system? |
|
|
|
|
Jul 21 2004, 01:29 AM
Post
#15
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
'Cause I got a shotgun and you don't got one. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 21 2004, 01:39 AM
Post
#16
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 |
And so, once again, the benefit of cyber is subjugated by the benefit of magic. As though the incompatibility between smartlinks and vision magnification wasn't enough? Gunslinging physads, therefore, get an enormous advantage that sammies automatically lack -- +6 dice for a pretty meager Karma expenditure. Tell me again why physads and Enhanced-Aim mage gunslingers aren't broken? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 21 2004, 02:12 AM
Post
#17
|
|
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Just because one group has an advantage over another does not make them broken.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 21 2004, 02:21 AM
Post
#18
|
|||
|
King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
That only applies to burst fire though right? Or did I always manage to get away with a +1TN for recoil when I should have been getting a +2TN when in semi-automatic mode? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 21 2004, 02:23 AM
Post
#19
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 334 Joined: 17-November 03 From: Texas Member No.: 5,828 |
Shotguns are only heavy weapons in burst mode, yes. BBB, p. 111 |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 21 2004, 02:40 AM
Post
#20
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
For enhance Aim, you have a maximum number of successes = to 1/2 the force and your TN is 6. So you need to roll 6 successes on a force 6 Enhance Aim to get the -3 TN modifier, which will only be a -1 if you're sustaining it (+2 to all TN when sustaining spells), otherwise you need a force 6 Sustaining focus, spending 6 karma to bond it, and 90,000¥ at character creation, or ¥180,000 afterwards (Street Index of 2) Also, Enhance Aim is automatically resisted just like all detection spells, with results reducing caster's successes. Also, the range of the sense is Force X Magic in meters, so 36 meters for a starting character. Great if all you're using is a pistol at a max of long range, whereas SM2 + Rangefinder gives you a -4 to your TN at extreme range, -3 to TN at long. Even with Extended Sense version, it's still only 360 meters - smartlinks work all the way out to extreme range (2,400 meters for Assault Canon) Astral barriers, wards, shamanic lodges,hermetic circles all ADD to the TN of the spell, or block it's effects, as does Shielding, Spell Reflecting, Spell Shield, Spell Wall, meaning you have to keep track of what you rolled and recompare successes from time to time. So, can you tell me how again just how *wonderful* :( Enhance Aim is compared to Smartlink 2 + Rangefinder? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 21 2004, 02:47 AM
Post
#21
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Madison, Wi Member No.: 521 |
;) way to go ghost.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 21 2004, 02:23 PM
Post
#22
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
Shadowghost covered Enhanced Aim, now I'll tackle physads with lots of Improved Ability. Lets say your Adept had the following powers: Improved Ability: SMGs(6)(Geas)(3/2.25) Improved Reflexes(2)(Geas)(3/2.25) Improved Sense(Low-Light, Mag, Thermo)(.75) Improved Physical Attribute(2 Quickness)(Geas)(1/.75) I hope you will not dispute that this is an effective gunbunny Adept. Future purchases would probably be Quick Draw(So he can whip out his SMGs lightning fast), Pain Resistance(Keep his TNs down), Blindsight(Because shooting quasi-accurately when your eyes are closed is COOL), and then any other goodies like Traceless Walk. He's REALLY GOOD at shooting people with his SMGs. I've been working on and off on a sammy, he's not done yet but he's getting there. Just for kicks, I'm going to note what the equivalent in power points would be if it wasn't geased. Cyberware: Autoinjector(No equivalent) Biomonitor and Diagnosis Processor(No equivalent) Cyberears(Hearing amp, dampener, high frequency)(.75) Cybereyes(Low-light, thermo, eyelights, image link, flare comp, mag)(Except for Heavy Smoke, this characters vision mods are equal or better than the Adepts. Call it at the equiv of 1 PP, not counting image link as there is no equivalent) Dermal Sheath(+2 body, +1 impact)(1.5) Datajack(Knowsoft link) (No equivalent) Plastic Bone Lacing(+1 body, +2 power on attacks)(.5) Wired Reflexes 2(+2d6 init, +4 reaction)(3) Smartlink-2(Rangefinder)(There's probably a statistical equivalent in bonus dice, but I've never done those numbers) Bioware: Enhanced Articulation(Varies wildly, but at least .5) Trauma Damper(No equivalent) Platelet Factories(No equivalent) Muscle Toner(.5) Mnemonic Enhancer(No equivalent) Total of 7.75, the equivelent of 6 power points if all of it had a geas. This char isn't quite done, but close enough. I'm toying with making the plastic into ceramic or kevlar as I do have the essence and nuyen. The temptation to drop Enhanced Articulation and snap up a Reflex Recorder and 2 levels of Damage Compensators is also strong. Looking over what I have listed, especially taking note of what I have listed as no equivalent. How much would those be worth as Adept powers? No one can outsneak an Adept who is completely focused on sneaking. No one can outshoot an Adept who is completely focused on shooting. The Samurai I have listed wont be able to out-shoot the gunbunny Adept I listed above. He's not supposed to. He's supposed to contribute to the group as a tank(This sammy is designed to be an ork - Troll was just a bit rich for my blood). There's a bit of synergy to the characters - The adept can't soak up anywhere near as much damage as the samurai but the samurai can't throw anywhere near as many dice at his attack tests. Meditate on this and return when you have attained enlightenment. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 21 2004, 11:19 PM
Post
#23
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 27-January 04 Member No.: 6,025 |
I second Modesitt. In my current game I play a Rigger/Sam with points in SMG's, Pistols and Clubs. He also has a smartlink-2 and Enhanced Articulation. Seven dice plus Combat Pool to kill something.
Another member of my current team is a Cyber Adapt with S.L.-2 and Enhanced Artic, plus an Assault Rifles(Ares Alpha) skill of 5/7, six Improved Skill dice and then he adds up to seven Combat Pool dice. 21 dice to kill something dead. However he can't always take the rifle with him and it is the second least quiet weapon in the game. He isn't unbalanced and he is useful in his nitch but certainly not broken. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 22 2004, 10:43 PM
Post
#24
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 |
One group having an advantage over another that takes hundreds of thousands of nuyen to compensate for is certainly broken, particularly when cybersammies are supposed to be excellent at combat. For that amount of nuyen, the adept can simply buy scads of Karma, initiate a couple of times while the sammy is recovering from his upgrade surgery, and still be better. If the rule preventing smartlink compatibility with image mag were retracted, the disparity would be greatly lessened. That (smartlinks) is the one advantage cybers have that adepts usually don't bother with. Adepts already have the far-vision from improved sense, they already have the massive dice pool to roll, they already have the massively enhanced reflexes... they are better than the combat-heavy cybered warrior in practically every way, including hand to hand combat. They, and much of the magic system along with it, is broken... or at the very least bent seriously in favor of magically active types. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 22 2004, 10:49 PM
Post
#25
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 |
Well, to each their own I guess... and I think my opinion may be a bit biased against magic types after spending two-plus years in a Shadowrun game where I was the only non-magic type and each of the magic types had something on the order of 200+ Karma. Even the "new" characters for this campaign are given 150 Karma and doubled resources... which will go a looooong way for an adept, but doesn't make all that much difference for a cybersamurai.
A starting campaign may be something else entirely... but since I haven't seen one of those in over a decade, I don't recall. :D |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 30th May 2025 - 08:04 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.