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SomeGuy
I was curious if a character with the full 8 points of ambidexterity could in theory use two shotguns...If the character had high enough strength to handle the insane recoil. Could a big troll in theory use a pair of shotguns like a human/dwarf/elf use pistols?
BitBasher
No, by canon it's specifically stated pistols sized weapons or smaller, including SMG's.
Fygg Nuuton
i would let them use 2 shotguns, but id require some kind of strength requirement, but i'm not fully canon
Sesix
I would figure a troll of good size would be able to, but alas yeah a str penalty would be needed. Also what about the reload, thats gonna take quite a bit.
ShadowGhost
And don't forget, double all uncompensated recoil if said troll uses burst fire mode. eek.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Sesix @ Jul 20 2004, 01:03 AM)
Also what about the reload, thats gonna take quite a bit.

Not if you get Marathon-style shotguns smile.gif

"I won't waste my time trying to explain the loading mechanism to you; your primitive mind could never grasp its complex nature."

~J
Sesix
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Sesix @ Jul 20 2004, 01:03 AM)
Also what about the reload, thats gonna take quite a bit.

Not if you get Marathon-style shotguns smile.gif

"I won't waste my time trying to explain the
loading mechanism to you; your primitive mind could never grasp
its complex nature."

~J

So very true, hehe.
Mardegun
QUOTE (ShadowGhost)
And don't forget, double all uncompensated recoil if said troll uses burst fire mode. eek.gif

The cannon doesn't say that uncompensated recoil is doubled. It says that recoil of one weapon carries to the other.

However I do have some standard questions about this...

So an adept with improved pistols skill of 6 rolls 12 dice per attack? Then they can increase it to 18 with combat pool ... eek

1) So with akimbo the character is attacking x2 as often?
2) What if the character gets two smarlink, one in each hand.

With a min str of 3 and short range a character would roll on average (round down)
left pistol: 12 dice +0 tn = 6 success
right pistol: 12 dice +1 tn = 4 success
left pistol: 12 dice +1 tn = 4 success
right pistol: 12 dice +3 tn = 2 success

Now if the character has 2 smartlinks, one in each hand his numbers would be.

left pistol: 12 dice -2 tn = 11 success
right pistol: 12 dice -1 tn = 8 success
left pistol: 12 dice -1 tn = 8 success
right pistol: 12 dice +1 tn = 4 success

As you can see you double the effectiveness of the character.
Fygg Nuuton
only one smartlink works to your advantage by canon. I, however, usually allow both to work, it only makes sense
BitBasher
QUOTE
2) What if the character gets two smarlink, one in each hand.
That is explicitly banned in canon, you always get a +2 TN to both guns IIRC.
Modesitt
QUOTE
And don't forget, double all uncompensated recoil if said troll uses burst fire mode.

He was talking about a troll firing two shotguns. In that case, he would not only have double uncompensated recoil but it would carry over.

QUOTE
1) So with akimbo the character is attacking x2 as often?

Yes. You can fire both guns with one action. For example, if you have two Sub machine guns set on burst fire, you could fire a burst from each gun with one simple action.

The adept that has tons of dice from powers is the only type of character that can effectively use two guns. If you built your character around that, I can not see any problem with your character being good at it.

Maybe a Magician with Enhance Aim would work too.

QUOTE

2) What if the character gets two smarlink, one in each hand.

Look at page 112 of the core rules, bottom-right under the heading "Using a second firearm". You can not use smartlinks, smart goggles, or laser sights if you are using two firearms.
sidartha
QUOTE
The cannon doesn't say that uncompensated recoil is doubled. It says that recoil of one weapon carries to the other.

Under the Shotgun rules in SR3, any uncompensated recoil penaltys are doubled.
Really makes that Gas Vent IV worth it wink.gif

Damn, too slow.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
only one smartlink works to your advantage by canon. I, however, usually allow both to work, it only makes sense

Neither smartlink works, and if you're aiming at different targets, that certainly makes a lot more sense than otherwise.

~J
Mardegun
Sorry, I should I have stated that beyond the cannon would you allow either

A. Two smartlinks (where does the cannon forbid this again?)
B. Assuming A is ok, a character with two smartlink have a -2 tn?

Looking beyond cannon doesn't it seem like it would be possible? If nothing else maybe allow the character to have a linked two smartlink system?
Arethusa
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Sesix @ Jul 20 2004, 01:03 AM)
Also what about the reload, thats gonna take quite a bit.

Not if you get Marathon-style shotguns smile.gif

"I won't waste my time trying to explain the loading mechanism to you; your primitive mind could never grasp its complex nature."

~J

'Cause I got a shotgun and you don't got one.
Kurukami
QUOTE (Modesitt)
The adept that has tons of dice from powers is the only type of character that can effectively use two guns. If you built your character around that, I can not see any problem with your character being good at it.

Maybe a Magician with Enhance Aim would work too.

QUOTE

2) What if the character gets two smarlink, one in each hand.

Look at page 112 of the core rules, bottom-right under the heading "Using a second firearm". You can not use smartlinks, smart goggles, or laser sights if you are using two firearms.

And so, once again, the benefit of cyber is subjugated by the benefit of magic. As though the incompatibility between smartlinks and vision magnification wasn't enough? Gunslinging physads, therefore, get an enormous advantage that sammies automatically lack -- +6 dice for a pretty meager Karma expenditure.

Tell me again why physads and Enhanced-Aim mage gunslingers aren't broken?
BitBasher
Just because one group has an advantage over another does not make them broken.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (sidartha)
Under the Shotgun rules in SR3, any uncompensated recoil penaltys are doubled.

That only applies to burst fire though right? Or did I always manage to get away with a +1TN for recoil when I should have been getting a +2TN when in semi-automatic mode?
Luke Hardison
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
QUOTE (sidartha @ Jul 21 2004, 12:16 AM)
Under the Shotgun rules in SR3, any uncompensated recoil penaltys are doubled.

That only applies to burst fire though right? Or did I always manage to get away with a +1TN for recoil when I should have been getting a +2TN when in semi-automatic mode?

Shotguns are only heavy weapons in burst mode, yes.

BBB, p. 111
ShadowGhost
QUOTE (Kurukami @ Jul 21 2004, 01:39 AM)
Tell me again why physads and Enhanced-Aim mage gunslingers aren't broken?

For enhance Aim, you have a maximum number of successes = to 1/2 the force and your TN is 6. So you need to roll 6 successes on a force 6 Enhance Aim to get the -3 TN modifier, which will only be a -1 if you're sustaining it (+2 to all TN when sustaining spells), otherwise you need a force 6 Sustaining focus, spending 6 karma to bond it, and 90,000 at character creation, or 180,000 afterwards (Street Index of 2)

Also, Enhance Aim is automatically resisted just like all detection spells, with results reducing caster's successes.

Also, the range of the sense is Force X Magic in meters, so 36 meters for a starting character. Great if all you're using is a pistol at a max of long range, whereas SM2 + Rangefinder gives you a -4 to your TN at extreme range, -3 to TN at long.

Even with Extended Sense version, it's still only 360 meters - smartlinks work all the way out to extreme range (2,400 meters for Assault Canon)

Astral barriers, wards, shamanic lodges,hermetic circles all ADD to the TN of the spell, or block it's effects, as does Shielding, Spell Reflecting, Spell Shield, Spell Wall, meaning you have to keep track of what you rolled and recompare successes from time to time.

So, can you tell me how again just how *wonderful* frown.gif Enhance Aim is compared to Smartlink 2 + Rangefinder?
Mardegun
wink.gif way to go ghost.
Modesitt
QUOTE ("Kurukami")

Tell me again why physads and Enhanced-Aim mage gunslingers aren't broken?


Shadowghost covered Enhanced Aim, now I'll tackle physads with lots of Improved Ability.

Lets say your Adept had the following powers:

Improved Ability: SMGs(6)(Geas)(3/2.25)
Improved Reflexes(2)(Geas)(3/2.25)
Improved Sense(Low-Light, Mag, Thermo)(.75)
Improved Physical Attribute(2 Quickness)(Geas)(1/.75)

I hope you will not dispute that this is an effective gunbunny Adept. Future purchases would probably be Quick Draw(So he can whip out his SMGs lightning fast), Pain Resistance(Keep his TNs down), Blindsight(Because shooting quasi-accurately when your eyes are closed is COOL), and then any other goodies like Traceless Walk.

He's REALLY GOOD at shooting people with his SMGs. I've been working on and off on a sammy, he's not done yet but he's getting there. Just for kicks, I'm going to note what the equivalent in power points would be if it wasn't geased.

Cyberware:
Autoinjector(No equivalent)
Biomonitor and Diagnosis Processor(No equivalent)
Cyberears(Hearing amp, dampener, high frequency)(.75)
Cybereyes(Low-light, thermo, eyelights, image link, flare comp, mag)(Except for Heavy Smoke, this characters vision mods are equal or better than the Adepts. Call it at the equiv of 1 PP, not counting image link as there is no equivalent)
Dermal Sheath(+2 body, +1 impact)(1.5)
Datajack(Knowsoft link) (No equivalent)
Plastic Bone Lacing(+1 body, +2 power on attacks)(.5)
Wired Reflexes 2(+2d6 init, +4 reaction)(3)
Smartlink-2(Rangefinder)(There's probably a statistical equivalent in bonus dice, but I've never done those numbers)

Bioware:
Enhanced Articulation(Varies wildly, but at least .5)
Trauma Damper(No equivalent)
Platelet Factories(No equivalent)
Muscle Toner(.5)
Mnemonic Enhancer(No equivalent)

Total of 7.75, the equivelent of 6 power points if all of it had a geas. This char isn't quite done, but close enough. I'm toying with making the plastic into ceramic or kevlar as I do have the essence and nuyen. The temptation to drop Enhanced Articulation and snap up a Reflex Recorder and 2 levels of Damage Compensators is also strong.

Looking over what I have listed, especially taking note of what I have listed as no equivalent. How much would those be worth as Adept powers?

No one can outsneak an Adept who is completely focused on sneaking. No one can outshoot an Adept who is completely focused on shooting. The Samurai I have listed wont be able to out-shoot the gunbunny Adept I listed above. He's not supposed to. He's supposed to contribute to the group as a tank(This sammy is designed to be an ork - Troll was just a bit rich for my blood). There's a bit of synergy to the characters - The adept can't soak up anywhere near as much damage as the samurai but the samurai can't throw anywhere near as many dice at his attack tests. Meditate on this and return when you have attained enlightenment.
sidartha
I second Modesitt. In my current game I play a Rigger/Sam with points in SMG's, Pistols and Clubs. He also has a smartlink-2 and Enhanced Articulation. Seven dice plus Combat Pool to kill something.
Another member of my current team is a Cyber Adapt with S.L.-2 and Enhanced Artic, plus an Assault Rifles(Ares Alpha) skill of 5/7, six Improved Skill dice and then he adds up to seven Combat Pool dice. 21 dice to kill something dead.
However he can't always take the rifle with him and it is the second least quiet weapon in the game. He isn't unbalanced and he is useful in his nitch but certainly not broken.
Kurukami
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Just because one group has an advantage over another does not make them broken.

One group having an advantage over another that takes hundreds of thousands of nuyen to compensate for is certainly broken, particularly when cybersammies are supposed to be excellent at combat. For that amount of nuyen, the adept can simply buy scads of Karma, initiate a couple of times while the sammy is recovering from his upgrade surgery, and still be better.

If the rule preventing smartlink compatibility with image mag were retracted, the disparity would be greatly lessened. That (smartlinks) is the one advantage cybers have that adepts usually don't bother with. Adepts already have the far-vision from improved sense, they already have the massive dice pool to roll, they already have the massively enhanced reflexes... they are better than the combat-heavy cybered warrior in practically every way, including hand to hand combat.

They, and much of the magic system along with it, is broken... or at the very least bent seriously in favor of magically active types.
Kurukami
Well, to each their own I guess... and I think my opinion may be a bit biased against magic types after spending two-plus years in a Shadowrun game where I was the only non-magic type and each of the magic types had something on the order of 200+ Karma. Even the "new" characters for this campaign are given 150 Karma and doubled resources... which will go a looooong way for an adept, but doesn't make all that much difference for a cybersamurai.

A starting campaign may be something else entirely... but since I haven't seen one of those in over a decade, I don't recall. biggrin.gif
Moonstone Spider
It takes hundreds of thousand of Nuyen to match the Adept. . . but the Adept has paid 25 Build points for the priviledge of being awakened, for which the Sammie gets to have 400,000 Nuyen. Self-Balancing.

Ultimately the Adept can get better in the end as there's no way for the Sammie to get more 'ware after 5.99 points of Delta, but most adept powers cost more than their exact equivalent in 'ware. (And by the time the Sammie has that much money, and the adept has initiated six times, they should be ready for retirement) For instance I can get a set of cybereyes with lowlight and visual mag for way less than .5 essence, and Wired Reflexes 3 costs less essence that the Adept magical reflexes do with 5 power points.

And lets not forget the absolutely insane number of guns a Sammie can fire at once if he gets a full-borg body and starts slapping fixed mounts on himself. . .
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Kurukami)
One group having an advantage over another that takes hundreds of thousands of nuyen to compensate for is certainly broken,

No it isn't when the advantage costs them either 399,500; 645,000; or 980,000 nuyen.gif . That's the difference 25 BP of resources makes. Enough to buy a lot of chrome.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Kurukami)
That (smartlinks) is the one advantage cybers have that adepts usually don't bother with.

Are you kidding? At .5 Essence plus the other .49 of whatever else you can cram in, they're perhaps the single most common piece of PC Adept cyberware (certainly the most I've seen, even above datajacks!)

This would just make the adept's extra dice worth even more (average ten successes vs. the Sammy's five as opposed to average six successes vs. the Sammy's three)

~J
ShadowGhost
We decided to start off with fewer resources - 30 BP gets you 650,000 instead of 1,000,000, and only 42 BP could be spent to buy attributes (21 Attribute points). Essentiually, everyone's attributes started at three, and you had three extra left over to put where you please.

The ambidextrous adept/mage can outshoot my character 8 ways to Sunday, and is excellent in with edged weapons, and has some magic skills.

My mundane character however, has 12 different skills, 5 combat skills and 7 other useful team skills: Computer, Electronics B&R, Demolition, Car, Stealth, Biotech and Etiquette. The adept has 5 skills, period, one of which is Spell Design - leaving four skills to help the team.

Essentially, if the adept can't shoot it, slice it up, or cast a spell at it, he's next to useless.

On the other hand, the mundane is highly adaptable with all his skills, and can walk naked into a room of gangers.... and still walk out the other side. Shock hands give him double the damage + extra in unarmed combat (11 M stun unarmed combat, + 8S stun shock hand, + close quarters maneuvre to eliminate opponents reach). One hit, even if the opponent completely rolls/shrugs it off, and they're still at a plus two to do anything.

Comparing Adept/Magic to mundane/cyber is pointless as they come from completlely opposite directions. You can make a munchy adept, and I can make a mundane that can counter and defeat munchy adept. Then you make adept to clobber my mundane, and we start all over again.


Each has their strengths and weaknesses. Ideally, you want members in a party to complement each other, not turn it into a contest of "I can kill better/faster than you." It's that guy that has that one skill you *really* need when it counts that really matters. Guns and killing abilities don't get what you want most of the time.

But they sure come in handy
Necrotic Monkey
There's nothing unbalanced about adepts as written. If you modify the rules of the game too heavily, including character creation, and/or dish out rewards that are too heavy in the way of Karma or two heavy in the way of nuyen, you shouldn't be surprised if an adept becomes "more powerful" than a street samurai or vice versa.

There is such a thing as game balance.
Cain
Smartlinks have a few other advantages that weren't mentioned. Namely, you can eject clips as a free action, switch firing modes, and so on. If you have a pad in each hand, you can switch between guns (and ammo types) with a thought. (To get the most mileage out of this, imagine a troll with akimbo Thunderer shotguns. He can select between *four* different ammo types, depending on need.) Smartlinks also afford the option of the biometric safety, and/or the biometric booby trap.

Sammies and adepts are not inherently broken or unbalanced. If nothing else, the fact that there is so much abused cyber proves that sammies have a huge edge in some areas. In fact, if I wanted to get really nasty-- a sammie with Skillwires 6, CED 3, and tons of chips with DIMAP can easily match most starting adepts in max dice possible.
Zazen
QUOTE (ShadowGhost)
So, can you tell me how again just how *wonderful* frown.gif Enhance Aim is compared to Smartlink 2 + Rangefinder?

It's certainly not wonderful when compared to a smartlink, however it can be quite wonderful when combined with one!
Necro Tech
Don't forget, with Skillwires and CED you get to save all your combat pool for soak and dodge, an ability with its weight in orichalcum.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Necro Tech)
Don't forget, with Skillwires and CED you get to save all your combat pool for soak and dodge, an ability with its weight in orichalcum.

Er yeah, cause you cant add combat pool to an attack when you really need it. Not a sacrifice i'm willing to make. Also The CED dice are pool dice, so they only refresh when you roll initiative. They also have a max rating of three.
Necro Tech
Depends on the character. A rigger, decker or like in our party, the medic uses it chipped because his combat skills were non existent. If your combat skills are secondary, you might not have a pistols/SMG/shotgun of over three and then you lose only a few dice. Especially if your pool is like 7 or 8 to begin with. Skill wired characters make great for supporting characters but since they capped the CED you really can't mainline your fighters anymore unless you have it to use unpopular weapons like gun canes or mortars.

"Hi, I'd like to get 'Howitzers' on chip please. Rating 6 if you got it." grinbig.gif
Necrotic Monkey
QUOTE (Necro Tech @ Jul 22 2004, 10:03 PM)
Don't forget, with Skillwires and CED you get to save all your combat pool for soak and dodge, an ability with its weight in orichalcum.

That's a peculiar statement. You can save your Combat Pool for damage reduction and dodge tests with a natural skill, too.

Skillwires and Chipjack Expert Drivers are great for skills that don't use a pool. Technical Skills (Biotech and Electronics), Physical Spells (Athletics, Diving, and Stealth), andBuild/Repair Skills are perfect examples of skills that are perfect for a skillwire set-up. Obscure Weapon Skills are also useful, as are (obscure or common) Vehicle Skills for non-riggers and Martial Art Skills for anyone who specializes in a melee weapon (all you need is a Rating 4 martial art that allows you to learn maneuvers with your preferred weapon, then pick whichever maneuver you want; your skill rating doesn't really matter except for limiting how many maneuvers you get for free, and you don't have to use any pool with it whatsoever)

But something that you're going to use often and that can benefit from one of your natural dice pools, like Pistols? You're far better off with the natural skill.
Necro Tech
That's what I said. Its not for main line fighters. It for people with very low (or no) combat skills. As for the earlier comment, I said you get to use the CED in place of combat pool for offense, thus saving your combat pool for soaking and dodging, not have to. I was responding to Cain's previous post. I just didn't think I needed the quote
Kurukami
QUOTE (Moonstone Spider @ Jul 22 2004, 11:12 PM)
It takes hundreds of thousand of Nuyen to match the Adept. . . but the Adept has paid 25 Build points for the priviledge of being awakened, for which the Sammie gets to have 400,000 Nuyen.  Self-Balancing.

Hmmm. The adept starting with that can get the same effect as Wired Reflexes 3 through Improved Reflexes, which the sammie can't get because he doesn't have sufficient nuyen. I'm failing to see your point there... biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Moonstone Spider)
Ultimately the Adept can get better in the end as there's no way for the Sammie to get more 'ware after 5.99 points of Delta, but most adept powers cost more than their exact equivalent in 'ware. (And by the time the Sammie has that much money, and the adept has initiated six times, they should be ready for retirement)  For instance I can get a set of cybereyes with lowlight and visual mag for way less than .5 essence, and Wired Reflexes 3 costs less essence that the Adept magical reflexes do with 5 power points.

I suppose the main problem lies in the group I gain with. They do have that much Karma, and have initiated that many times (there's one elf-mage who's initiated something like 11 or 12 times). Top that off with relatively meager nuyen awards (the occasional 100k nuyen.gif score doesn't do much for riggers and deckers, since the tech is so pricy and/or takes so long to code/create oneself, and the fact that the magic types end up buying 20 or so Karma with the nuyen they get, thus advancing all the faster...

*waves hands in surrender* Look, suffice to say that my experiences with magic, adepts, and rules-lawyers has soured me on the whole subject.
Modesitt
QUOTE
It takes hundreds of thousand of Nuyen to match the Adept. . . but the Adept has paid 25 Build points for the priviledge of being awakened, for which the Sammie gets to have 400,000 Nuyen.  Self-Balancing.


No.

25 build points under the build point system = 650,000 nuyen.

QUOTE
Hmmm. The adept starting with that can get the same effect as Wired Reflexes 3 through Improved Reflexes, which the sammie can't get because he doesn't have sufficient nuyen. I'm failing to see your point there... biggrin.gif


While it's wrong to correct errors that result from others, I just can't resist.
Wired Reflexes 3 = 500,000
25 BP = 650,000
650,000 > 500,000
BitBasher
QUOTE
and the fact that the magic types end up buying 20 or so Karma with the nuyen they get, thus advancing all the faster...
And this is why cash for karma is a horrible idea without the exchange rate fluctuation to match the campaign!. Your exchange rate frightens me!
PiXeL01
Sorry but I thought the Enhance Aim spell had the mage as a target and therefore couldnt be resisted ...

And through the years I have been playing SR Adepts focussed on Melee Combat skills and Stealth. everyone had that "Leave the guns to the Samurai"-attitude.
As for ambidexteri I allow the use of Laser Sights but only if aiming on the same target with both weapons
Necrotic Monkey
Nope. Enhance Aim is cast on a subject and affects targets, just like most other Detection Spells. It's even noted as being resisted on the table in the back of MitS if memory serves. I tend to ignore that rule simply because its a headache, but I do stick with the range limitation for the bonus.
Kurukami
That seems accurate... and as regards the TN penalty, the group I run with seems to always manage to center against most potential penalties along those lines.

Thankfully, that entire campaign should be retired in the very near future, to be replaced with a "start-from-scratch" campaign where I devoutly hope there will be less rules-lawyering and number-crunching.

Anyways... enough of my going off on a wild tangent. It's kind of a pity that canon says only weapons of SMG size or smaller can be used. It cuts down on those "The Rundown" moments of cinematographic excess where the husky gunslinger, be he cybered or adept, dual-wields the single-shot shotguns.

Aside from canon, for subjective house rules, would most of you have misgivings about single-shot (not burst-fire) shotguns being used in such a manner? After all, the damage code is similar to that being tossed out by a burst-firing SMG and the characters in question would almost certainly need to reload quickly.
northern lights
i've been up all night and am too tired to read through the whole post, so i don't know if it got mentioned, but didn't something somewhere say a troll could fire an assault rifle in each hand???

if not, i start to realize why they call me crackhead don
Kagetenshi
It's possible (that that rule exists, that is), but it'd almost certainly involve TN mods past what ambidex and recoil comp can account for.

~J
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (northern lights)
i've been up all night and am too tired to read through the whole post, so i don't know if it got mentioned, but didn't something somewhere say a troll could fire an assault rifle in each hand???

if not, i start to realize why they call me crackhead don

Nope, Ambidexterity only lowers the penalty for pistols and SMGs -- and at the GMs discretion, pistol- or light-sized crossbows -- not just any firearm fired from one hand (CC p. 94). A troll could still do it with the usual +2/+2 penalty, however, even if they don't suffer the standard (but different) +2 modifier for using a two-handed firearm in one hand (CC p. 99).
Arethusa
It's worth pointing out that the reason trolls still get the same penalty is that they don't fire standard sized assault rifles. Their equipment has to be troll sized, or they get a +2 penalty, I believe.
Apathy
The stock and grips are customized to troll size, not the whole gun. (Which would look pretty silly to me, but whatever.) Otherwise, you'd have to increase the damage code and/or power of a weapon when troll-ifying (or reduce them for dwarf-sizing).
Fygg Nuuton
hmm, i pistol for trolls only that fires some huge cartidge, like a rifles. interesting

i never play trolls though
Method

I think its important to remember that SRs recoil/ambidexterity rules are ment to maintain game balance, not realism. If you've ever shot a 9mm you know that your pitiful RL strength of 3 or 4 can easily compensate for the limited recoil. But a troll in SR with a strength of 12 can't fire a SMG (LP) without insane recoil mods? I'm fairly certain that, if he existed, guy with the strength of 3-4 men could handle an H&K MP5 (9mm) without any problems in RL. Likewise a gunsmith could very easily build an AR or SG action into a troll sized SMG or HP, and if trolls existed in RL they could probably handle the RL recoil, no problem. It really comes down to game balance and a troll with a SG in each hand is just a little over the top.
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