Not if you get Marathon-style shotguns

"I won't waste my time trying to explain the loading mechanism to you; your primitive mind could never grasp its complex nature."

~J

So very true, hehe.

The cannon doesn't say that uncompensated recoil is doubled. It says that recoil of one weapon carries to the other.

However I do have some standard questions about this...

So an adept with improved pistols skill of 6 rolls 12 dice per attack? Then they can increase it to 18 with combat pool ... eek

1) So with akimbo the character is attacking x2 as often?
2) What if the character gets two smarlink, one in each hand.

With a min str of 3 and short range a character would roll on average (round down)
left pistol: 12 dice +0 tn = 6 success
right pistol: 12 dice +1 tn = 4 success
left pistol: 12 dice +1 tn = 4 success
right pistol: 12 dice +3 tn = 2 success

Now if the character has 2 smartlinks, one in each hand his numbers would be.

left pistol: 12 dice -2 tn = 11 success
right pistol: 12 dice -1 tn = 8 success
left pistol: 12 dice -1 tn = 8 success
right pistol: 12 dice +1 tn = 4 success

As you can see you double the effectiveness of the character.

That is explicitly banned in canon, you always get a +2 TN to both guns IIRC.

He was talking about a troll firing two shotguns. In that case, he would not only have double uncompensated recoil but it would carry over.

Yes. You can fire both guns with one action. For example, if you have two Sub machine guns set on burst fire, you could fire a burst from each gun with one simple action.

The adept that has tons of dice from powers is the only type of character that can effectively use two guns. If you built your character around that, I can not see any problem with your character being good at it.

Maybe a Magician with Enhance Aim would work too.

Look at page 112 of the core rules, bottom-right under the heading "Using a second firearm". You can not use smartlinks, smart goggles, or laser sights if you are using two firearms.

Under the Shotgun rules in SR3, any uncompensated recoil penaltys are doubled.
Really makes that Gas Vent IV worth it

Damn, too slow.

Neither smartlink works, and if you're aiming at different targets, that certainly makes a lot more sense than otherwise.

~J

'Cause I got a shotgun and you don't got one.

And so, once again, the benefit of cyber is subjugated by the benefit of magic. As though the incompatibility between smartlinks and vision magnification wasn't enough? Gunslinging physads, therefore, get an enormous advantage that sammies automatically lack -- +6 dice for a pretty meager Karma expenditure.

Tell me again why physads and Enhanced-Aim mage gunslingers aren't broken?

That only applies to burst fire though right? Or did I always manage to get away with a +1TN for recoil when I should have been getting a +2TN when in semi-automatic mode?

Shotguns are only heavy weapons in burst mode, yes.

BBB, p. 111

For enhance Aim, you have a maximum number of successes = to 1/2 the force and your TN is 6. So you need to roll 6 successes on a force 6 Enhance Aim to get the -3 TN modifier, which will only be a -1 if you're sustaining it (+2 to all TN when sustaining spells), otherwise you need a force 6 Sustaining focus, spending 6 karma to bond it, and 90,000¥ at character creation, or ¥180,000 afterwards (Street Index of 2)

Also, Enhance Aim is automatically resisted just like all detection spells, with results reducing caster's successes.

Also, the range of the sense is Force X Magic in meters, so 36 meters for a starting character. Great if all you're using is a pistol at a max of long range, whereas SM2 + Rangefinder gives you a -4 to your TN at extreme range, -3 to TN at long.

Even with Extended Sense version, it's still only 360 meters - smartlinks work all the way out to extreme range (2,400 meters for Assault Canon)

Astral barriers, wards, shamanic lodges,hermetic circles all ADD to the TN of the spell, or block it's effects, as does Shielding, Spell Reflecting, Spell Shield, Spell Wall, meaning you have to keep track of what you rolled and recompare successes from time to time.

So, can you tell me how again just how *wonderful* Enhance Aim is compared to Smartlink 2 + Rangefinder?

Shadowghost covered Enhanced Aim, now I'll tackle physads with lots of Improved Ability.

Lets say your Adept had the following powers:

Improved Ability: SMGs(6)(Geas)(3/2.25)
Improved Reflexes(2)(Geas)(3/2.25)
Improved Sense(Low-Light, Mag, Thermo)(.75)
Improved Physical Attribute(2 Quickness)(Geas)(1/.75)

I hope you will not dispute that this is an effective gunbunny Adept. Future purchases would probably be Quick Draw(So he can whip out his SMGs lightning fast), Pain Resistance(Keep his TNs down), Blindsight(Because shooting quasi-accurately when your eyes are closed is COOL), and then any other goodies like Traceless Walk.

He's REALLY GOOD at shooting people with his SMGs. I've been working on and off on a sammy, he's not done yet but he's getting there. Just for kicks, I'm going to note what the equivalent in power points would be if it wasn't geased.

Cyberware:
Autoinjector(No equivalent)
Biomonitor and Diagnosis Processor(No equivalent)
Cyberears(Hearing amp, dampener, high frequency)(.75)
Cybereyes(Low-light, thermo, eyelights, image link, flare comp, mag)(Except for Heavy Smoke, this characters vision mods are equal or better than the Adepts. Call it at the equiv of 1 PP, not counting image link as there is no equivalent)
Dermal Sheath(+2 body, +1 impact)(1.5)
Datajack(Knowsoft link) (No equivalent)
Plastic Bone Lacing(+1 body, +2 power on attacks)(.5)
Wired Reflexes 2(+2d6 init, +4 reaction)(3)
Smartlink-2(Rangefinder)(There's probably a statistical equivalent in bonus dice, but I've never done those numbers)

Bioware:
Enhanced Articulation(Varies wildly, but at least .5)
Trauma Damper(No equivalent)
Platelet Factories(No equivalent)
Muscle Toner(.5)
Mnemonic Enhancer(No equivalent)

Total of 7.75, the equivelent of 6 power points if all of it had a geas. This char isn't quite done, but close enough. I'm toying with making the plastic into ceramic or kevlar as I do have the essence and nuyen. The temptation to drop Enhanced Articulation and snap up a Reflex Recorder and 2 levels of Damage Compensators is also strong.

Looking over what I have listed, especially taking note of what I have listed as no equivalent. How much would those be worth as Adept powers?

No one can outsneak an Adept who is completely focused on sneaking. No one can outshoot an Adept who is completely focused on shooting. The Samurai I have listed wont be able to out-shoot the gunbunny Adept I listed above. He's not supposed to. He's supposed to contribute to the group as a tank(This sammy is designed to be an ork - Troll was just a bit rich for my blood). There's a bit of synergy to the characters - The adept can't soak up anywhere near as much damage as the samurai but the samurai can't throw anywhere near as many dice at his attack tests. Meditate on this and return when you have attained enlightenment.

One group having an advantage over another that takes hundreds of thousands of nuyen to compensate for is certainly broken, particularly when cybersammies are supposed to be excellent at combat. For that amount of nuyen, the adept can simply buy scads of Karma, initiate a couple of times while the sammy is recovering from his upgrade surgery, and still be better.

If the rule preventing smartlink compatibility with image mag were retracted, the disparity would be greatly lessened. That (smartlinks) is the one advantage cybers have that adepts usually don't bother with. Adepts already have the far-vision from improved sense, they already have the massive dice pool to roll, they already have the massively enhanced reflexes... they are better than the combat-heavy cybered warrior in practically every way, including hand to hand combat.

They, and much of the magic system along with it, is broken... or at the very least bent seriously in favor of magically active types.

No it isn't when the advantage costs them either 399,500; 645,000; or 980,000 . That's the difference 25 BP of resources makes. Enough to buy a lot of chrome.

Are you kidding? At .5 Essence plus the other .49 of whatever else you can cram in, they're perhaps the single most common piece of PC Adept cyberware (certainly the most I've seen, even above datajacks!)

This would just make the adept's extra dice worth even more (average ten successes vs. the Sammy's five as opposed to average six successes vs. the Sammy's three)

~J

It's certainly not wonderful when compared to a smartlink, however it can be quite wonderful when combined with one!

Er yeah, cause you cant add combat pool to an attack when you really need it. Not a sacrifice i'm willing to make. Also The CED dice are pool dice, so they only refresh when you roll initiative. They also have a max rating of three.

That's a peculiar statement. You can save your Combat Pool for damage reduction and dodge tests with a natural skill, too.

Skillwires and Chipjack Expert Drivers are great for skills that don't use a pool. Technical Skills (Biotech and Electronics), Physical Spells (Athletics, Diving, and Stealth), andBuild/Repair Skills are perfect examples of skills that are perfect for a skillwire set-up. Obscure Weapon Skills are also useful, as are (obscure or common) Vehicle Skills for non-riggers and Martial Art Skills for anyone who specializes in a melee weapon (all you need is a Rating 4 martial art that allows you to learn maneuvers with your preferred weapon, then pick whichever maneuver you want; your skill rating doesn't really matter except for limiting how many maneuvers you get for free, and you don't have to use any pool with it whatsoever)

But something that you're going to use often and that can benefit from one of your natural dice pools, like Pistols? You're far better off with the natural skill.

Hmmm. The adept starting with that can get the same effect as Wired Reflexes 3 through Improved Reflexes, which the sammie can't get because he doesn't have sufficient nuyen. I'm failing to see your point there...

I suppose the main problem lies in the group I gain with. They do have that much Karma, and have initiated that many times (there's one elf-mage who's initiated something like 11 or 12 times). Top that off with relatively meager nuyen awards (the occasional 100k score doesn't do much for riggers and deckers, since the tech is so pricy and/or takes so long to code/create oneself, and the fact that the magic types end up buying 20 or so Karma with the nuyen they get, thus advancing all the faster...

*waves hands in surrender* Look, suffice to say that my experiences with magic, adepts, and rules-lawyers has soured me on the whole subject.

No.

25 build points under the build point system = 650,000 nuyen.

While it's wrong to correct errors that result from others, I just can't resist.
Wired Reflexes 3 = 500,000
25 BP = 650,000
650,000 > 500,000

And this is why cash for karma is a horrible idea without the exchange rate fluctuation to match the campaign!. Your exchange rate frightens me!

Nope, Ambidexterity only lowers the penalty for pistols and SMGs -- and at the GMs discretion, pistol- or light-sized crossbows -- not just any firearm fired from one hand (CC p. 94). A troll could still do it with the usual +2/+2 penalty, however, even if they don't suffer the standard (but different) +2 modifier for using a two-handed firearm in one hand (CC p. 99).