 Improving character attributes, How do you accomplish it? |
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 Aug 28 2003, 10:29 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634  |
I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in thinking that players should have to spend a certain amount of time as well as karma to increase their attributes and skills. And while it's easy enough to imagine what characters spend their time on in learning skills, raising attributes is more difficult. I started this thread to share ideas on how players are supposed to spend time in order to raise attributes.
I have worked out a rough scheme for myself: Body: Aerobic exercise, dieting Quickness: Stretching and flexibility exercise Strength: Weightlifing and other non-aerobic exercises designed to increase muscle mass Charisma: time spent socializing Intellegence: not sure Willpower: not sure |
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Aug 28 2003, 10:43 PM
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#2
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Not necessarily related to your question, but I liked the rule in SR1 whereby a character could only ever raise their original Attributes by 1. To me this is much more realistic than a character starting the game with a Strength of 2 raising it to 9 over a couple of years.
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Aug 28 2003, 11:38 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,478 |
*headscratch* actually, that seems kinda stupid, to me. i mean, it's wholly invalidated by real life--sure, most people don't go from 2 to 9, but most people don't spend enough time / earn enough karma. i mean, it costs one hundred and twelve karma to do so--i doubt most people earn quite that much karma over the course of their entire life; if they do, they spend it mainly on knowledge skills like "how awesome i used to be, back in high school". yes, going from 2 to 9 is at the extreme limits of possibility--which is just fine, since it's just as rare for a character to do it.
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Aug 29 2003, 07:03 AM
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#4
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Guaranteed to be the minority here, but my opinion is that it makes perfect sense to NOT require "training" to raise attributes. I mean, for one, it's a game where advancement is half the fun. Character growth is something all players really really enjoy. Forget about how they do it, they just spend the Karma and are stronger/smarter/etc.
There's nothing wrong with going from 2 to 9 (though I can't imagine anyone doing that), Conan did it as a boy who was the wimpiest in his village (before it was burned to the ground). Did it make alot of sense? Nope, but it was great for the story. Anyhows, I'm (and fortunately, my group is also) am one of those people who does NOT require 'time spent' to explain skill raising and attribute raising. You just do it and if the PLAYER wants to explain how, because it makes his advancement more fun, that's bonus for the GM/Player, but definitely not required. However, if you insist on 'ways' to improve: Willpower: Meditation, TaiChi, etc. Intelligence: Logon, read, do logic-puzzle games. Sphynx |
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Aug 29 2003, 08:39 AM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
If someone really wants to spend 20 years strapped to the Wheel of Pain to increase his strength, I'm ok with it. |
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Aug 29 2003, 10:28 AM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 28-August 03 From: Denmark Member No.: 5,549 |
well, my idea about the exercises needed to raise attributes is pretty close to your initial post, GunnerJ.
and for the other two attributes, i can suggest: Int: mental exercising (sharpening the senses; perception), study, reflex training (since Int is half of your reaction attribute along with Quick, so you might wanna add this to Quick as well). Will: meditation, multiple spell-sustaining (for mages, handling the drain damage trains your will power), resisting pain (i know it sounds odd, but your GM might allow you to raise the attribute without training if you have endured torture or some other trauma). |
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Aug 29 2003, 01:28 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 14-August 03 Member No.: 5,492 |
Hey, Dieting should raise willpower also, :D
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Aug 29 2003, 01:54 PM
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#8
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
The way I've always considered it is that in raising attributes and skills, the shadowruns are what do it. Granted -- like Sphynx said -- if a player wishes to elaborate, then I say good and they might get a bonus karma if it's cool or inventive. But, if someone wants to raise stealth from 4 to 5 and they just finished a Shadowrun, then I usually consider that they picked up a new technique from that run ... perhaps found a way to move their feet to reduce noise, etc.
However, for learning a new skill that wasn't previously possessed by a player, then I enforce the rules for instructors and what not. I don't think I've ever had a player that actually learned a new skill. Most just enhance "older" ones. |
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Aug 29 2003, 02:19 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,478 |
i'm with sphynx too, really. i mean, if a char wants to go from 3 to 6 in one swell foop, or something, i might ask for some explanation, but that doesn't happen too often.
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Aug 29 2003, 05:08 PM
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#10
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'm not talking about stats as a child. I'm talking about an adult who has had a Strength of 2 for his entire 20+ years, then in the space of a year or so raising it to 9 (or even 6) naturally. In my opinion, that's crap. |
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Aug 29 2003, 05:35 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 |
As a player, I'll look towards raising my Body by one every time I receive a wound of Serious or greater severity and survive it. However, I think that the preponderance of magical healing in Shadowrunning groups (I've never seen one that doesn't have at least one, if not two, magicians with Heal spells) tends to lessen the impact of big nasty wounds by a lot...
As to the other Attributes? Training. Give the players something useful to do with their downtime. :) |
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Aug 29 2003, 05:37 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 27-July 03 From: Mainz, Germany Member No.: 5,072 |
You mean the part about Good Karma where it says
right? Funny thing is, it never said you can increase it only once. :) In the end, we came to a houserule saying you can increase an attribute by half it's natural starting value using Karma. Everything above that was either cyber- and bioware or steroids :cyber: |
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Aug 29 2003, 06:05 PM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,464 |
So, uhh, the games you run... they're kinda karma heavy, I guess? "A year or so" for that much karma ain't too shabby. |
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Aug 29 2003, 06:12 PM
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#14
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't recall the actual quote, and I do not have access to the books at the moment. It may be as you say, but I do seem to recall there being a specific qualifier about it somewhere in SR1. Note that I do not actually use this rule though. I just think it reflects reality a little better than unlimited advancement of Attributes. :) |
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Aug 29 2003, 06:14 PM
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#15
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
And in my opinion (it's just an opinion) it's not crap. I know alot of people who joined the military at 20+ as nothing more than a tub of lard. They had the muscle, and mass even, but never really used it. I've seen them more than quadruple their strength in as short as 3 or 4 months. Going from being a pretty-boy debutante to surviving on the Streets through the Shadows will change people alot, and if that player's view of himself is a growth in strength, then there you go. I never object to ANYTHING a player wants to raise in their character. That's THEIR part of the story, I control only the plot, not what their characters do, otherwise I might as well just play with myself (no comments there please... :P). NOTHING is more annoying for players than a GM who tries to mirror the player's character in the GM's image of the character. And nothing is less enjoyable (ok, the nothing here might be an exaggeration) than playing a character you don't feel is yours. I recommend to anyone, let players advance their own characters without holding them by the strings. Hell, I even let them do the IMPOSSIBLE on advancement. I let one guy gain Astral Perception without having ANY Magic rating at all because I could see how he visualized his character, so I took the BeCKs system, calculated that a Point of Magic (Magic rating of 1) and Astral Perception would come to about 15 Karma, and that's what I charged him to "Awaken with Astral Perception and 1 Magic Point". I realize I'm a bit 'loose' in my methods, but I try my best to stick with the idea that "fun first" is the best way to have fun at a game, and I want my players to have fun. Sphynx |
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Aug 29 2003, 06:18 PM
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#16
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Before you start assuming that I railroad my players in what they can do with their characters, please read the post above yours.
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Aug 29 2003, 06:21 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,478 |
i'm not sure where you got your ideas about personal improvement from, dude, but i personally know a good double-handful of people who went from 98-lb weaklings to badass mofos during the course of their adult lives. it's not common, sure, but it can happen.
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Aug 29 2003, 06:43 PM
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#18
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
As have I, but I've not known anyone that came even close to doubling their Strength, Body, Willpower, Intelligence, Charisma, and Quickness, all in less that 10 years (if ever). As I said before, I don't use this rule. I just think there should be some kind of limitations on natural Attribute improvement. |
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Aug 29 2003, 06:54 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 3-April 03 Member No.: 4,370 |
I remember about 4 years ago (i'm 21 now) we had to lift weights for gym class. I remember starting around 90 lbs for benching and by the time the 2 months was over i was up to 140. that 140 hasn't really changed over the years cause i haven't tried to up it any, but i know for a fact that if i tried hard enough i could easily be benching 200+ lbs. so doubling one's starting str shouldn't really be that hard. my pain tolerance has always been fairly high and it's only gotten better over the years (i'm a clutz, what can i say?) and i guess one's actual IQ can't be raised, but the amount of stuff you know always goes up to fill the amount of intelligence you are capable of, so i think that's an abstract view of raising your int. so i'd say it's fairly possible to double all your attributes and more as long as you're willing to dedicate the time and effort to improving yourself.
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Aug 29 2003, 08:53 PM
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#20
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
No there shouldn't. The only limitation a person has is whatever they put on themselves. You can be as strong, smart, quick, etc as you put your mind to. Sphynx |
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Aug 29 2003, 09:41 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 106 Joined: 27-July 03 From: Mainz, Germany Member No.: 5,072 |
Which is not quite true...there still is a limit on how far a person can advance his/her physical attributes...not that sure about the mental ones, though. At least if you wan to inject a dose of realism into your game...but realism ends where the dragon breathes fire anyway ;) |
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Aug 29 2003, 10:55 PM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Yes, it is called the number 9 for humans. |
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Aug 29 2003, 11:05 PM
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#23
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So, in your view then, every single person has the potential to be the equivalent of the best in the world at everything, given that they put their mind to it? I don't see it. Individuals all have a different potential, based on more than just putting a lot of effort into something.
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Aug 29 2003, 11:44 PM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 3-August 03 Member No.: 5,209 |
I'd argue (at least for right now) one can find an excellent example of Nurture over Nature (more or less the argument of unlimited advancement or becoming near superhuman in one's field) by pointing out the Polgar sisters (and the book their father wrote).
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Aug 30 2003, 06:59 AM
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#25
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I do not normally ask that my players come up with explanations on how their charactors improved but since I usually work all my PCs attributes, I can justify it that they gotten stronger/fitter/better while on the run. Even allowed a PC to learn to drive in a very short time because he had to take over the wheel on the fly.
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