I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in thinking that players should have to spend a certain amount of time as well as karma to increase their attributes and skills. And while it's easy enough to imagine what characters spend their time on in learning skills, raising attributes is more difficult. I started this thread to share ideas on how players are supposed to spend time in order to raise attributes.

I have worked out a rough scheme for myself:

Body: Aerobic exercise, dieting
Quickness: Stretching and flexibility exercise
Strength: Weightlifing and other non-aerobic exercises designed to increase muscle mass
Charisma: time spent socializing
Intellegence: not sure
Willpower: not sure

Not necessarily related to your question, but I liked the rule in SR1 whereby a character could only ever raise their original Attributes by 1. To me this is much more realistic than a character starting the game with a Strength of 2 raising it to 9 over a couple of years.

*headscratch* actually, that seems kinda stupid, to me. i mean, it's wholly invalidated by real life--sure, most people don't go from 2 to 9, but most people don't spend enough time / earn enough karma. i mean, it costs one hundred and twelve karma to do so--i doubt most people earn quite that much karma over the course of their entire life; if they do, they spend it mainly on knowledge skills like "how awesome i used to be, back in high school". yes, going from 2 to 9 is at the extreme limits of possibility--which is just fine, since it's just as rare for a character to do it.

Guaranteed to be the minority here, but my opinion is that it makes perfect sense to NOT require "training" to raise attributes. I mean, for one, it's a game where advancement is half the fun. Character growth is something all players really really enjoy. Forget about how they do it, they just spend the Karma and are stronger/smarter/etc.

There's nothing wrong with going from 2 to 9 (though I can't imagine anyone doing that), Conan did it as a boy who was the wimpiest in his village (before it was burned to the ground). Did it make alot of sense? Nope, but it was great for the story.

Anyhows, I'm (and fortunately, my group is also) am one of those people who does NOT require 'time spent' to explain skill raising and attribute raising. You just do it and if the PLAYER wants to explain how, because it makes his advancement more fun, that's bonus for the GM/Player, but definitely not required.

However, if you insist on 'ways' to improve:
Willpower: Meditation, TaiChi, etc.
Intelligence: Logon, read, do logic-puzzle games.

Sphynx

well, my idea about the exercises needed to raise attributes is pretty close to your initial post, GunnerJ.
and for the other two attributes, i can suggest:

Int: mental exercising (sharpening the senses; perception), study, reflex training (since Int is half of your reaction attribute along with Quick, so you might wanna add this to Quick as well).
Will: meditation, multiple spell-sustaining (for mages, handling the drain damage trains your will power), resisting pain (i know it sounds odd, but your GM might allow you to raise the attribute without training if you have endured torture or some other trauma).

Hey, Dieting should raise willpower also,

The way I've always considered it is that in raising attributes and skills, the shadowruns are what do it. Granted -- like Sphynx said -- if a player wishes to elaborate, then I say good and they might get a bonus karma if it's cool or inventive. But, if someone wants to raise stealth from 4 to 5 and they just finished a Shadowrun, then I usually consider that they picked up a new technique from that run ... perhaps found a way to move their feet to reduce noise, etc.

However, for learning a new skill that wasn't previously possessed by a player, then I enforce the rules for instructors and what not. I don't think I've ever had a player that actually learned a new skill. Most just enhance "older" ones.

i'm with sphynx too, really. i mean, if a char wants to go from 3 to 6 in one swell foop, or something, i might ask for some explanation, but that doesn't happen too often.

As a player, I'll look towards raising my Body by one every time I receive a wound of Serious or greater severity and survive it. However, I think that the preponderance of magical healing in Shadowrunning groups (I've never seen one that doesn't have at least one, if not two, magicians with Heal spells) tends to lessen the impact of big nasty wounds by a lot...

As to the other Attributes? Training. Give the players something useful to do with their downtime.

Before you start assuming that I railroad my players in what they can do with their characters, please read the post above yours.

i'm not sure where you got your ideas about personal improvement from, dude, but i personally know a good double-handful of people who went from 98-lb weaklings to badass mofos during the course of their adult lives. it's not common, sure, but it can happen.

I remember about 4 years ago (i'm 21 now) we had to lift weights for gym class. I remember starting around 90 lbs for benching and by the time the 2 months was over i was up to 140. that 140 hasn't really changed over the years cause i haven't tried to up it any, but i know for a fact that if i tried hard enough i could easily be benching 200+ lbs. so doubling one's starting str shouldn't really be that hard. my pain tolerance has always been fairly high and it's only gotten better over the years (i'm a clutz, what can i say?) and i guess one's actual IQ can't be raised, but the amount of stuff you know always goes up to fill the amount of intelligence you are capable of, so i think that's an abstract view of raising your int. so i'd say it's fairly possible to double all your attributes and more as long as you're willing to dedicate the time and effort to improving yourself.

So, in your view then, every single person has the potential to be the equivalent of the best in the world at everything, given that they put their mind to it? I don't see it. Individuals all have a different potential, based on more than just putting a lot of effort into something.

I'd argue (at least for right now) one can find an excellent example of Nurture over Nature (more or less the argument of unlimited advancement or becoming near superhuman in one's field) by pointing out the Polgar sisters (and the book their father wrote).

I do not normally ask that my players come up with explanations on how their charactors improved but since I usually work all my PCs attributes, I can justify it that they gotten stronger/fitter/better while on the run. Even allowed a PC to learn to drive in a very short time because he had to take over the wheel on the fly.

The game already does, you can see the chart the game limits you to on page 245 of the SR3.

You're not arbitrating when limiting a person's advancement due to your own view of how the world should be, you're House Ruling.

If a player has this image in his mind of some 90 pound weakling turned Hercules, and the game allows it, then why should a GM interfere? Because the player isn't advancing the way the GM wants the character to advance? Guess he might as well just spend the Karmas for the player then and decide everything else the character does too, just to make sure things stay in the image the GM has them at, in his own mind.

It's not a good idea....

Sphynx

In the end, a character could always use genetic therapy to increase whatever attribute they want (yes, I would rule even a 1 to a 9 is possible).

Of course it would cost about a million nuyen and take 6 months, Plus karma.

So, just curious... but why is it perfectly okay for a two-left-handed klutz to turn himself into a masterful pistoleer? Why is it just fine for someone who starts a campaing unable to find the power switch to evolve into a master hacker? Why can Tommy "Stomps A Lot" The Troll grown into someone with a 9/12 stealth/sneaking specialization?

If it's perfectly reasonable for you to limit a character's attribute advancements, why stop there? I mean, heck. Skills should only ever go up by one point, too, right?

The question is "Why?".

What does it matter to you how a player advances, if he goes from Strength of 2 to 9. It's obviously how HE sees the character, why does your viewpoint have to over-ride his viewpoint?

Your job is plot and NPCs, his job is his character. Players build characters with a pre-destined idea of how they want to advance. Players don't just advance an attribute from 2 to 9 unless it's their view of the character and how they want to advance from before they even start playing.

So, the question is "Why?" would you ruin one of the fun aspects of being a player? So you can impose your viewpoint on them? I think the creators of the game did well to only limit via Racial maximums. Any additional limitations is too excessive and imposing.

Sphynx

The thing to remember is, Shadowrunners are not Joe Average. Joe average may not have the potential to develop his basic attributes that high, but Shadowrunners are all exceptional human beings. Whos' to say they *don't* have the potential to do so?

I dont' even know where to start. Obviously a lot of you guys have n idea what you are talking about. First off Fortune, i think you are right. It is just a game and i think it is up to the GM (as almost every issue in this forum should be) exactly how much you can improve based on the background of your character, etc. I still ask my players to invest time to raise their attributes.

But come on. these people saying that they believe that people can get up to all 9s in their attribute equivalent in real life are so full of it. For one, who can honestly say that they have known an adult person who became even nearly 50% more intelligent throughout their adult life? if so you are a liar. Knowledge is what people gain with time, intelligence has a definate natural limit, while i can agree that people may 'discover' new ways to think, unlock your aptitude etc., but you cannot raise your natural talent.

Now physical attributes of course change, (they also decrease, if you want realism) but they are difficult to raise without things like steroids, too difficult to raise to say a 24 yr old 2str. guy to go to a str. 6 guy by age 30 w/o drugs to aid him. Body i guess you can eat until you are like the fat guy in meaning of life, thatll give you like 9 body, after all they say body is a measure of your mass (or rather body strength difference, swimming rules, right?). But even then some people can only get so big.

I lift weights, i have for a long time, i visit the weightlifting sites all the time with all their uber methods yadda yadda. One important thing they stress (as do the books) is that you can only get as strong/quick as your genes allow, which for most is below 6 let alone 9 and prolly 5. For the guy who went from 90lbs to 140 on his bench in 2 mos. congrats, you went from 1 to 2 str (4 karma), but prolly just cause your muscles had never been tried before, 140 is probably around what they were really at. Everyone knows you can be benching 375 one day, get injured and be off weights for awhile then come back a little weaker and be back to 375 in no time, a week or two. You took 2 mos. cause you took 16yrs off or whatever.

p.s. And willpower is best raised by pain/fasting/doing difficult things, IMHO. Of course if you dont have the willpoer to fast how can you raise it? its a paradox, your drive/willpower is what will make you raise any attribute anyway. But given the fact that our lives are predetermined by the history of universal events and our genes, being that all variables are set before any action occurs, there is no free choice in life and given enough computing power and knowledge of these variables we can predict all 'decisions' and outcomes from the moment of creation til infinitium, its all moot.

All players souldn't have an attribute or skill more then level 1, and be confined to wheelchairs.

Rather than make it impossible with stat caps and whatnot, why not just drastically increase training times? That way a character who increases from 2 to 9 is truly exceptional, having spent 20 years strapped to the Wheel of Pain or whatever.

That kind of phenomenal increase should be possible for highly determined individuals. I feel that it makes for good drama.

All I ask of my players, in regards to increasing skills or attributes is that they present a reasonable course of action to accomplish their goals. If they wish to gain a point of strength, I simply ask them how they're going to go about doing so. If the solution they put forth seems at all realistic or likely to succeed, i tend to be ok with it. All I'm looking for here is that the player shows some ability to think creatively about his character, and apply these methods to acomplishing what he wishes done.

I don't do this to take control of their characters, or to interfere with their plan for they're character. Indeed, it serves to prove to my satisfaction that they do, indeed have a plan for the character. In my experience, handling it in this way tends to make players think about their characters in realisitc terms. Anything that I as a GM can do to help a player make a character seem more realistic and alive, and less like a sheet of paper with a collection of numbers, i tend to do.
When you allow a player to simply spend his karma freely on attributes or skills as they desire, with no thought into how or why this is happening, your losing a great opportunity for roleplaying and character development. I do, of course observe the racial maximums for attributes, but these aren't, nor is anything else necessarily set in stone, for players who find creative (non-munchkin) ways around them.
Of course, if a roleplaying intensive game is not for you, then the above argument doesn't matter. It isn't my intent to convert anyone to how i do things, or to insinuate that my style is the only way to go.

Hey now......

I do agree though. Mundanes are weak enough without more impossitions and a stat-cap would effect them ALOT more than it would a mage-type.

Sphynx

So how many people have actually managed to canon-max out one attribute in-game? Two? (And how many karma per game does your GM regularly give out?)

For me: I'm still working on my first canon maximums - CH, WL, QU. The highest I've yet gotten (not counting temporary spell enhancement in an anchoring focus) is CH and QU 9 (elf) ... and that took two years of game time. Only three of my skills have slipped above 6 (barely).

I do intend eventually to take this as high as I can - but I'm not going to sacrifice everything else in order to do it: which probably means that I'm not going to reach that maximum unless the campaign game-time starts being counted in decades.

okay, think of it this way: WHY the crap would you not play another awakened fraggin' boring cheap karmaeater using extreme caps to stats and skills?
Geez, you people are almost worse than my d&d friend (he thinks that anything with less INT than 16 is a moron, and anything with less CHA than 16 is a asshole that can't communicate)! And THAT'S bad!

what i'm trying to say is: BALANCE!

With extreme limits to Stats and Skills everyone will be a adept/shaman/"arcanist" and go to hell and back with initiating....... And what's the fun in that?
It's a game, realism is not needed in a game where you can blow a tank to smithereens with 2 shots from a light pistol! And where there are dragons and ghosts and bugs the size of horses and so on.....

got my point? Sorry if i seem annoyed but it's late, i'm angry at my fraggin sister and then i see some people suggesting even MORE limitations and "Mundanes always suck, period" to the otherwise lovely game of SR?

Sorry!