 Heavy Pistol construction., Building a better gun. |
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 Jul 26 2004, 07:14 PM
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#101
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222  |
Yes, if the gun is useful for a lot of people, and the price-quality ratio is good, and they can be and are manufactured in large numbers, your particular gun won't stand out much. Many customized guns simply do not fall into this category -- the burst-firing 10M guns in particular. A burst-firing, 9M HP with all kinds of cool add-ons firing all kinds of ammunition = No problem. A burst-firing, 10M HP with all add-ons and only firing EX-Ex or APDS = Possible problems. |
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Jul 26 2004, 07:16 PM
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#102
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Ok, so say the ballistics are the same... It would still be just as hard to find someone carrying a modified pistol as it would be to find someone carrying a stock one.
[EDIT]Where's the rules that say when you have a custom pistol you have to have custom ammo made for it? If it's 10M, if it helps you, assume you're using the ammo for the Ruger Super Warhawk... a STOCK pistol. You don't have to only fire Ex Ex or APDS. |
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Jul 26 2004, 07:20 PM
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#103
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
What does "modified" mean in this instance? It would be easier to find someone carrying a Desert Eagle modified to fire 440C in a fully-automatic mode and only firing 305gr Cor-Bon Penetrators with it compare to someone with a stock Desert Eagle .44 Magnum firing common ammunition. It would not be significantly easier finding someone carrying a Glock 17 with a fire selector switch (full-auto capable) compared to someone with a stock Glock 17.
.440 305gr Cor-Bon Penetrators are "stock" ammunition. They are very rare and perhaps possible to track, unlike, say, 9mmP 124gr Nato Ball M882, which is also "stock" but available all over in huge numbers. |
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Jul 26 2004, 07:21 PM
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#104
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
And by the way, a gun like that WOULD be useful to a lot of other people. Gangers, shadowrunners, corp guys who want a little extra protection, bodyguards... Anyone who normally needs to carry a pistol, really. For what you can get, the price isn't bad, either.
[EDIT] How would it be easier? You're taking this to a far extreme. Everyone who get a few mods done to their piece isn't going to be shooting some exotic, ultra-rare ammo. If they are, see my post about the neon lights and gold filigree. |
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Jul 26 2004, 07:27 PM
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#105
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
As opposed to anyone else using a similar firearm and ammo choice? EX Explosive, in particular, isn't that hard to get by anyone who needs a little extra firepower. And considering that there's apparently googles of shadowrunners in Seattle alone, many of whom are going to be packing at least one clip worth of EX Explosive ammo, it's not exactly a big clue. And of course we come right back to the main point made earlier: None of it matters. You could be using a stock Ares Predator with regular ammunition or you could be using a twinked out Savalette Guardian with all the bells and whistles firing AV ammo. If the GM wants to create a plot element based upon Lone Star tracking you down through ballistics, they're going to do it either way. If he doesn't, they're not. It really is that simple. There's no sense shying away from choosing a customized weapon over a stock weapon beyond a pure roleplaying point of view. It's no different than choosing to take Pistols skill over SMG skill, or any other basic choice in the game. It's 100% style. Besides, the rules for tracking someone down have no bearing on what kind of ammunition or weapons you're carrying. Only things like Contact Levels and edges like Blandness or Distinctive Style play a part in it. |
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Jul 26 2004, 07:28 PM
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#106
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Gun like what? An extremely powerful, burst-firing handgun? No. Extremely expensive, massive, the recoil will throw the bullets all over the fucking place and wreck your wrists while it's at it. Unless, of course, you only go for the in-game, numerical rules. |
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Jul 26 2004, 07:30 PM
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#107
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
2 words: Recoil comp.
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Jul 26 2004, 07:34 PM
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#108
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Apart from the AV ammo, I completely agree. I'd assume AV ammo isn't very common, even in the shadows, so it just might be possible to track you based on that. Not a huge risk, but something you might want to avoid if you don't tend to blow up fucking tanks with your pistol often. Laser Sights, Suppressors (or "Silencers), Personalized Grips, Underbarrel Weights, etc etc, do not really matter. I have agreed with this all along. My problem is with going around with nothing but BF 10M HPs with the more exotic ammo types. They're absolutely not "guaranteed to get you nailed" or anything, but they do make it easier to figure out all the shootings you were involved in. They are a Clue. Clues are Bad, mmkay?
I guess if you've got a very simple GM, it is. I know I don't think like that. |
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Jul 26 2004, 07:37 PM
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#109
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
As the one touting the awesome powers of ballistics, you should know that the cops will know all the shootings you've been in anyway, AE.
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Jul 26 2004, 07:40 PM
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#110
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yeah. Another thing about SR canon that makes as much sense as the same ammo fired from Preds and Super Warhawks doing different damage, only easier to argue against in this particular case. Nothing quite like one of those industrial ceiling fans called a Gas Vent IV to make a burst-firing .50BMG pistol perfect for small-framed shooters. |
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Jul 26 2004, 07:41 PM
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#111
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Fire different kinds of generic ammunition. Change barrels, bolts, firing pins -- or even weapons -- every now and then. Not necessarily. |
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Jul 26 2004, 07:43 PM
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#112
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Like the man says...
You don't bat an eyelash at the magic, dragon, trolls, or bunyips, but you refuse to believe that weapon technology (a very profitable industry) will advance dramatically 60 years down the road? |
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Jul 26 2004, 07:54 PM
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#113
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I don't think it makes a GM simple if he decides to not keep track of all the killing you do. Like I've been saying all along, its about the game you play in.
You could have a very complicated GM whose game happens to be street level and takes place exclusively in one of the Barrens. I'd bet that none of the characters in that game would worry about the cops nialing them with forensic evidence. I always played it as, as long as you don't leave your business card at the scene and remember to have decker erase the footage of your crime, you did a pretty good job. The way I see it, since there are no rules for me to handle this in such a way that evenly distributes the possiblity of getting nabbed, it could easily be construed by my players that I was playing favorites. Additionaly, not everyone knows as much about this sort of stuff and long time SR players. Since there are no rules that make the players aware of the possiblity of getting caught because they didn't pick up their shells after a gun fight (as there are rules for cleaning your astral signature) its not really fair for me to arbitrarily decide whose doorstep the LS FRT ends up kicking in...unless its part of my plotline. |
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Jul 26 2004, 10:16 PM
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#114
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Ok i got bored half way through page three (hehe) so i don't know if anyone brough this up.
Custom pistol. Someone had to build/design it right? and there are how many people in your choosen city that can do that? The Fuzz would have record's on them no? perhaps ask them? Cos this still goes beck to, "The Gm will screw you over if their horny" thing again. but a valid point i think. |
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Jul 26 2004, 10:29 PM
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#115
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
No one has any real data concerning magic, dragons, trolls, or bunyips today. However, guns have worked pretty much the same way for a long time, and short of some sort of miracle, which frankly SR is fresh out of, weapons are still going to act like they do today. Magically reducing recoil for ten shots, universal ammunition with major variances in damage potential across similar weapons platforms, and so on, all a are little...off. Having the background information of now, these sort of things can be argued. I'm of the belief (possibly stated in a sourcebook somewhere? Maybe a TSS or NAGEE) that there aren't that many Shadowrunners in Seattle, and of those, not every one, or even one in five, use a customized weapon. Of those with custom weapons, once more, only a fraction will be using a modified pistol. If you run around with a modified pistol, and a string of crimes are committed with this bad boy, and you have any sort of reputation when it comes to blowing people away with prototypes, the cops are going to come knocking the second they ask anyone who knows about you. That's once again, my opinion and how I run my game. |
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Jul 26 2004, 10:55 PM
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#116
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
To be fair, a lot of this conversation depends on the kind of customizations we're talking about.
The gun might be pearl-inlay with grips and platinum engravings, but there aren't any witnesses, the police are going to think it a standard M1911. If your weapon fires .23 bullets with explosive tips...then yes, that's an uncommon round and will probably get you nailed. A lot of the "standard" customizations aren't going to raise eyebrows or be detectable in standard forensics investigations - shorter trigger pull, custom grips, extended barrel and so forth effect the shooter and doesn't make noticeable alterations on the bullet as it leaves the barrel. -Siege |
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Jul 26 2004, 11:51 PM
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#117
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i said this in another thread. Smiley's post brings me to say it again.
magic is not a good reason to simply throw away realism. to play Shadowrun, you obviously have to suspend your disbelief a bit, in order to account for magic. however, if the rest of the game world is realistic, it makes the suspension of disbelief much easier. people play Shadowrun because it's cyberpunk + magic. one of the core elements of cyberpunk is gritty, realistic technical details. you can't just toss realism out of the game, and expect it to not suffer. |
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Jul 27 2004, 12:02 AM
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#118
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Then why not get as riled about the Matrix? It's only been 60 years. Are we supposed to believe electronics technology has advanced to a level that is even more absurd than the concept of universal ammo types? If so, why should firearms technology have stagnated if so many other core aspects of the game setting have made ridiculous advancements in three generations from today?
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Jul 27 2004, 12:06 AM
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#119
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
yeah but is there actually some design reason why you can't make a full auto modification for SIG pistols?
About forensics as mere plot hook, depends on how heavy handed or willing to think on their feet your GM is. There was this one time we were very suspicious of these goons that suddenly showed up, knew where we were going to be and came loaded for bear. We stunned one of them and tortured him for hours, the GM was running a module and normally is pretty good about thinking on his feet but this guy wouldn't give up any info. I think it must have been those unjustified goons that pop up in the "raising the stakes" sections or whatever. The crazy shit we did to that guy, people will say anything under that kind of torture, not a single name or place, bulldrek. If your GM is being a heavy handed prick, LS is still the law and they have to tell you what their case is against you (forensics and all), just call your lawyer if it sounds weak, don't play ball with an out of control GM. Maybe you'll be fucking with his plans for the scenario but he's fucking with your character too if it's really something your character would never do. you prevent this worst case scenario by being attentive to forensic evidence and that suggests to your GM that you expect some realism in return in that area. best way to make a clean crime scene is to make sure it never becomes more than a missing persons report by making sure there's no body found. |
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Jul 27 2004, 12:07 AM
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#120
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
jesus god lord in heaven, i do get riled up about the Matrix. don't get me started on that monstrous, Gibsonian mockery of all that is right and computable in this world.
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Jul 27 2004, 12:10 AM
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#121
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
This leads me to an interesting thought. What would be the game effects of making your weapon a smoothbore?
No rifling marks, no way to track the gun to it's bullets. Lousy range too, of course. Probably make the gun a lot cheaper to build if you don't rifle the inside. Coincidentally, what's the point of Machine Pistols? I took a look at getting one recently and realized that with it's hideous Damage code, a burst from it will do about the same damage as one round from a Predator. And given the Magazine size of around 30 rounds, I can only fire 10 bursts from it vs. 15 from the Predator with the same damage code. And as if that wasn't bad enough, the crummy base damage means it can never harm any vehicle or people wearing gel packs on their armor where the Predator can. . . |
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Jul 27 2004, 12:11 AM
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#122
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
I don't think there are universal ammo types, that was just a ruling that in general all weapons of the same class can use the same ammo. the rules say there are universal ammo types but the shadowrun word makes reference to many different types. it's contradictory but those two different levels of shadowrun reality are there for convienance.
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Jul 27 2004, 12:14 AM
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#123
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
On one hand, you'd be fine in a court of law. Unfortunately, no one uses smoothbore weapons, so you're basically painting a huge crosshair over yourself for Lone Star detectives. Have fun while it lasts. Your life of crime can be over even if you don't go to prison.
And machine pistols are useless, though some people doggedly maintain that they're good for suppressing, I don't know, birds or something. |
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Jul 27 2004, 12:32 AM
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#124
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Are you asking about machine pistols irl or in the game?
-Siege Edit: As for why can't a Sig be made full-auto capable, I'm not entirely sure how the specific Glock in question works and why this conversion kit only works with this particular model of Glock. Ya might want to quiz Ray on the particulars. |
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Jul 27 2004, 12:35 AM
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#125
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you can make Savalettes full-auto. there's a modification in the customization section that turns any burst-fire weapon into FA. mmm, full-auto 9M--assault rifles can sit on it.
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