 Heavy Pistol construction., Building a better gun. |
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 Jul 27 2004, 12:37 AM
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#126
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Mostly Harmless  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176  |
Shotguns are smoothbore. Use sabot slugs or flechettes. Range should be limited to about 150-200 meters unless some particularly light, small caliber fin-stabilized slug is used, then you might be able to get another 100-150 meters out of it, considering technology advancements. Shell casings are still foresically identifiable. If anyone starts yapping about caseless shotgun shells, I shall smack them into next month.
Any semi-auto firearm can be made full-auto. It's just a matter of how much work it takes to do so. The Glock full-auto conversion is a drop-in part, takes all of about 5 minutes to install, can be used on any Glock pistol. |
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Jul 27 2004, 12:39 AM
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#127
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Ya know, I want to do that just to watch my GM's expression before he launches the book at my head. :grinbig:
-Siege |
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Jul 27 2004, 12:46 AM
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#128
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
In game. In real life, they're of dubious value, but are still very far removed from their ridiculous SR incarnations. |
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Jul 27 2004, 12:58 AM
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#129
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
in the game, they're only slightly more useful than the light pistols they come from. like i've said before, if i were in charge, i'd errata all firearms to have a minimum damage level of M.
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Jul 27 2004, 01:11 AM
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#130
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Well, hey, a .22 target pistol's not going to be doing M. Though I definitely understand your point.
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Jul 27 2004, 02:00 AM
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#131
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Reducing recoil is no great trick, really. I never said anything about universal ammunition, that was Doc Funkenstein. And I still think 60 years from now, advances in weaponry will be goddamn staggering. |
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Jul 27 2004, 02:05 AM
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#132
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
I was talking in-game. Heavy pistol frames can't be made full auto. |
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Jul 27 2004, 02:12 AM
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#133
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
not all of them, but some can--those already able to use burst-fire.
and, honestly? i'd give a .22 pistol an M damage code. maybe only 4 power, but M damage. it should not be a simple matter for a normal human to simply ignore being shot with even a .22 pistol--which, as a 4L weapon, they often can. |
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Jul 27 2004, 03:51 AM
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#134
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Ya know, I'd be so much more inclined to believe the 60+ year tech curve if the weapons weren't so fundamentally based on modern tech.
And in some ways inferior to modern tech. Although, that's probably just the game mechanics falling apart. And let's face it, as weapon systems may improve - a 1944 Thompson will still ruin your day. -Siege |
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Jul 27 2004, 04:01 AM
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#135
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
So will sticks and stones.
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Jul 27 2004, 04:29 AM
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#136
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I completely agree with what otomik said about universal ammunition in SR (which isn't a technology issue, but a market issue), and I have no problem with firearm technology advancing a lot. Like I already said, none of this really has anything to do with the specific technology used to make the particular customized gun much more bad-ass than the rest.
Apart from adding a large muzzle brake, what would you propose could negate the kinetic energy and momentum of the gun recoiling against your hand/arm? And there are (very good) reasons why a muzzle brake is of very marginal use on a gun. A "recoil compensator" or a vented barrel doesn't do anything to bone-crunch -- it might even add to it, since the weapon is more likely to recoil straight back. Adding a ton of weight to the gun works, but then you've got a huge and heavy gun with a huge additional weight under the barrel, which makes for an extremely awkward weapon. All the possible inherent recoil-mitigating effects of guns have already been used about as effectively as they can be. The action of (semi-)automatic weapons cannot be done much about. More effective re-direction of gases at the muzzle should only be done with long arms, a Barrett-like big-ass muzzle brake would be pretty damn painful on a burst-firing huge-caliber handgun. So, unless you go with "nanotech will solve everything" or funny little gadgets that will automatically transform all surrounding energy from one form to another (kinetic to electric, for example), there simply isn't much tech around to help you make the 440C BF pistol useful. If you wish, Doctor Funkenstein, we could deal with why it is a very silly idea for the exact same ammunition to do different kinds of damage when fired out of different-but-similar guns. It just boils down to there being nothing that we (the humans of 2004) can imagine could be a workable solution ever. |
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Jul 27 2004, 04:34 AM
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#137
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Nah. I'm quite content suspending my disbelief here as much as I am with the Matrix and the Awakening. If I needed "realistic" rules I'd be playing GURPS or any other number of dreadfully boring games. |
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Jul 27 2004, 04:42 AM
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#138
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Yeah, it's a proven fact that details in weapons make any game boring. Why, I hear no one likes Spycraft. What fools would make such a thing?
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Jul 27 2004, 04:53 AM
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#139
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Nut, similar weapons firing the same ammo can and do cause different amounts of damage. Muzzle velocity matters. It influances deformation and fragmentation, and determines the total ammount of kenetic energy that the bullet has to dump into its target. Explosive bullets usualy won't work below a minimum muzzle velocity.
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Jul 27 2004, 05:15 AM
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#140
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Hate to break it to you, but precious few things in Shadowrun's system are detailed. It's an abstract game on just about every level. No reason firearms should be any different just to cater to some gun afficionados. |
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Jul 27 2004, 05:36 AM
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#141
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
If you really believe that, you must have a pretty different level of what you consider detailed. The matrix, rigging, decking, and cyberware all have rules detailed/complicated enough that a lot of groups don't use some of the rules available in their respective supplements even if they're readily available.
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Jul 27 2004, 05:39 AM
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#142
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
The words "complex" and "detailed" mean different things.
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Jul 27 2004, 06:20 AM
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#143
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no kidding. the combat rules may be complex, but the fact that all firearms of a given class use the same caliber means that it's not very detailed.
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Jul 27 2004, 07:28 AM
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#144
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Right.
Matrix: What kind of a processor does a Fairlight Excalibur have? Who knows. All we get is an abstract MPCP rating. Rigging: What kind of an engine does a Eurocar Westwind sport? Who knows. We just get abstract Speed, Acceleration, and Economy ratings. Decking: What decoding methods does a Decrypt utility use to decode an encrypted datafile? Who knows. We just get an abstract Encryption and Decryption ratings. Cyberware: How many amps of bioelectricity does an obvious cyberarm use vs. the stress it inflicts on its user? Who knows. All we get is an abstract Essence rating. Firearms: What caliber ammo does an Ares Predator use? Who knows. We just get an abstract Damage Code and weapon group. Damage: What kind of a wound did that gunshot create? Who knows. We just get an abstract Wound Level. Armor: What polymers are used in a Secure Jacket and how are they rated by various government agencies? Who knows. We just get abstract Armor Ratings. Same difference all around. The entire system revolves around abstract concepts. |
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Jul 27 2004, 02:19 PM
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#145
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Of course muzzle velocity bloody well matters. That is why I was all along saying "with handguns of similar size" or "of similar barrel length", etc. When the barrel length is the same, and you don't poke big fucking holes in the barrel (as in a MP5SD-like suppressor, or simply a barrel full of holes), you get almost exactly the same muzzle velocity out of the two guns. Two weapons with significantly different barrel lengths aren't "similar weapons". However, it is clear beyond any doubt from the SMGs that the size of the weapon (Concealability) has absolutely nothing to do with the damage code. Some really large SMGs do 6M (Uzi III) while some really small SMGs do 7M (HK 227). So you're stuck with explanations such as built-in coil-gun mechanisms in certain guns, or really powerful springs moving the whole block/barrel mechanism, etc. None of which make any fucking sense at all.
Yeah, .50BMG HE rounds don't go off if you drop them, but they reliably will in the 1500-1000fps range, 1/2 - 1/3 the original muzzle velocity. If all explosive ammunition in SR is assumed to be pyrotechnically initiated, you might see a sharp drop in reliability with really short-barreled, low-power guns at very long ranges. If you assume those rounds to be detonated in just about any other way, that won't matter. Not as much as with JHP or similar expanding munitions, which would also require some velocity to expand at all, and would utterly suck with short-barreled handguns even at very close ranges. This sort of detail is absolutely not taken into account in SR, where barrel length or weapon size in general has nothing to do with the damage it does, other than when deciding the weapon class and the 0.25kg/Power for the Design option.
I'm not saying you need separate calibers in SR. I am saying you should not use that fact as a logical basis for an argument which is not directly related to the rules of SR. The fact is that, just like an Eurocar Westwind has a specific motor, so does an Ares Predator fire ammunition of a specific caliber. And just like you could differentiate between a Rolls-Royce Phaeton (Speed 140, Acc 8, Diesel 250l, 6km/l) and a Bentley Verde De-Lux (Speed 180, Acc 10, otherwise all stats are same) just by looking at the motors of the two, you could differentiate between a Ruger Super Warhawk and an Ares Predator just by looking at the ammunition. If you don't want to think of the game beyond the abstract concepts, that's fine. It does ease the stress on the brain, that's why the concepts are there. However, some (including me) like to think of the "actual", fully detailed world beyond the abstractions, when making decisions about things like forensics. |
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Jul 27 2004, 07:54 PM
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#146
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
You've done it now, Aus. Prepare to suffer the wrath of Abstract Brokenness™.
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Jul 28 2004, 12:43 AM
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#147
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
weapons can fire the same ammo and get very different muzzle velocities
lets talk SMGs, the Steyr AUG 9mm carbine and H&K MP5 have very similar overall lengths. the MP5 has 8 inches of barrel because the magazine in front of the grip and the AUG has 16 inches of barrel because of it's bullpup configuration. 8 inches means about a 320 feet per second velocity difference (using the standard 40fps per inch estimation), that's about the difference between standard pressure NATO 9mm and .357 SIG or 9x23mm Winchester. on the other end of the spectrum the Tec-9 is available with a 3'' barrel. So we could say that SMG class weapons even if they were all firing 9mm Parabellum could have up to a 520 feet per second difference in velocity, not to mention all the +P and +P+ loadings of 9mm out there (but that's stretching the definition of "same ammunition"). There's also electrothermal-chemical controlled ignition technologies that can boost velocities quite a bit while using the same ammunition. There's also caseless liquid propellant technologies (one of my favorites, which i'm working into my cyberpunk spycraft setting) which could use a variable amount of propellant from shot to shot. combined with electrothermal tech this could mean your gun could function as a battle rifle or SMG depending on the settings (like the Steyr AUG CSL or the H&K G37). this could also justifiy huge ammunition capacities. fascinating stuff google any or a combination of these terms "liquid propellant" "XM46" "Crusader" "HAN-TEAN" In some ways i'd prefer that Shadowrun Author's don't mention any specifics about guns because they'd just embarass themselves with more things like the Colt Water Carbine. Spycraft does too, Modern Arms Guide has inaccurate flavor text but they got the basics right and have a lot more detail than SR Austere, you misquoted me, Dr. Funkelstein said that. i completely believe that Shadowrun has huge stagnant areas of tech. similar to Cowboy Bebop. |
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Jul 28 2004, 04:02 AM
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#148
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
otomik: I think you would agree that an UZI (and likely an Ingram) would have a longer barrel than an MP5-type SMG of the same overall length. Yet the Damage Codes of these weapons are the other way around, even though the HK227s are smaller in overall size than either the UZI or the Ingram. Not to mention that the Gun Design and Customization rules clearly show that there was never supposed to be a relation between damage caused by firearms and their barrel lengths. Chopping off or lengthening barrels only causes Range to change around here.
Not "stretching" as much as "breaking". In SR, you buy the exact same ammunition for the different guns, and the same particular round of ammunition would cause different damage out of different guns of the same class. Using more propellant therefore cannot explain this, regardless of what the propellant technology is -- powder, liquid propellants, etc. The ammunition used with a Ruger Super Warhawk uses the exact same amount as the ammunition used with an Ares Predator, if you literally use the rules to describe the world. Steyr AUG Para vs HK MP5: The only muzzle velocity quotes I could find for the AUG para were 400 meters per second (presumably with 124gr NATO standard ball). That's less than 100 more fps than you'd get out of an MP5. I would assume the muzzle velocity boost from lengthening the barrel is directly related to the pressure (or indeed the total propellant gas volume) created by the round, which necessarily means it's a whole lot less important with SMGs than with sporting rifles -- for which the 40fps/inch is estimated, right?
Oops! I have no idea what I was thinking. It's been edited. |
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Jul 28 2004, 05:04 AM
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#149
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
So... How about those caseless shotgun shells? ;) Seriously though, why would this be a problem? From a purely technical standpoint or more simply a fact that no-one would probably bother due to lack of reason/demand? |
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Jul 28 2004, 07:37 AM
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#150
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 11-January 03 Member No.: 3,889 |
I loved how Cyberpunk handled weapons and ammo, but I strongly disliked the weapons themselves. The SR firearms and their abstract (and at times blatantly ubsurd) rules and handling is one of my biggest gripes.
Why do SMG's and pistols use different ammo? Argh. |
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