Heavy Pistol construction., Building a better gun. Options

[mfb]

why do rifles and assault rifles use different skills? aargh!

[northern lights]

well, i think i know. i happen to have fired rifles for a long time. not so assault rifles.

the rifles skill is used with sniper rifles, which fit a rifleman's perspective about right. i know i'm death to small critters to 500 yards easily, but that is with custom stock, fluted floating barrel, scope, prone with tripod or rest, etc.

i'd have no clue what i was doing trying to lay down suppressive fire with an automatic capable weapon.

as well ask why rifles and shotguns use different skills, a much better question.

the only similarity between the two types of rifles is the basic layout of how you hold them or fire them singly. after that, effectively using an assault rifle is very different.

and yes, i have fired several weapons that would be considered assault rifles, but not in a way to be effective in a combat situation.

[Odin]

[Arethusa]

Firearms skills are the only skills in the entire game that are so ludicrously fragmented. Running is not the same as swimming is not the same as gymnastics, but there is the Athletics skill. Sorcery covers practically everything a mage needs to know. Firearms, on the other hand, got broken up for unfathomable reasons. The problem is that a person who's trained with rifles all his life and has skill 8 or 9 will be just as clueless with an assault rifle, LMG, carbine, shotgun, or pistol as someone who's never seen a gun before in his life. This is clearly dumb, and that's basically all there is to it.

As for caseless shotguns, you could conceivably wrap pellets in a propellant block. Would it work? Maybe. Would it work well? No. Would you be an idiot for trying? Yes.

[Austere Emancipa...]

The skill-thing has been discussed often enough. Most people will agree that firing this is not as far removed from firing this as to warrant a separate skill. Most would agree that as long as using explosives and creating explosives is the same skill, so should firing an AR and a sporting/sniper rifle (or SMG, or shotgun, or LMG) be.

Others think game balance is more important, and firearms skills must be broken down to make sure not everybody rocks with guns. Some look for a middle ground with just a few weapons skills (handguns, long arms, heavy weapons, or something like that). Yet others think all skills should be broken up more. You should do whatever fits your style of gaming best.

Do not be fooled for a moment, though: the current division in Combat Skills is far, far beyond what happens in Technical or Physical skills, for example, and your only logical reason to break up the Firearms skill (at least beyond the handguns/long arms/heavy weapons) is game balance.

[Edit]What Arethusa said...[/Edit]

[mfb]

a shotgun which uses caseless ammo already exists, in SR. it's called the street sweeper. hurray for high-tech!

[Raygun]

[tjn]

[Siege]

I've fired a .22 at range - trying for long distance shots involves different actions than using a SMG at much shorter range.

The Assault Rifle overlaps the SMG's auto fire feature and makes use of the "engaging targets at range" feature of the rifle.

However, as the SMG is designed to function with a much shorter range, the skillset needed to handle it effectively is different from the larger range of the Assault Rifle.

The skills needed to use a Rifle effectively at it's operating range is different again from the skills needed to handle an Assault Rifle.

While there is certainly some overlap in these skills, I think you can make a fairly good case for them being held seperately.

-Siege

[kevyn668]

Which is why its only a slight penalty to default from one skill to another. You can do it, just not as well as you could with the skill you were trained in.

[Raygun]

Exactly.

[Person 404]

Well, unless it's a hard shot. In which case you can't do it at all.

[mfb]

not really. if i pick up an M-16 and fire it in single-shot mode, i use the assault rifle skill. if i pick up a Bushmaster, i use the rifle skill. but these are effectively the same weapon. now, if you want to make an "autofire" skill, or something, okay--i can see that, that makes sense. but making someone use a completely different skill just because a weapon has the option of autofire makes no sense.

[kevyn668]

You know what? I've been playing SR since it came out in '89 and I had always had a big problem with how the Firearms skill had been broken up but after I read Seige's explanation of it, well, damn if it didn't suddenly seem easier to swallow.

So, thank you Siege for clearing it up. :)

[kevyn668]

[BitBasher]

[mfb]

but it doesn't. in SR, you use different skills for what is effectively the same weapon, simply because one of them has an aftermarket kit that turns it into an automatic weapon--and you use the different skill whether you're using the autofire function or not!

edit: i was referring to the civilian Bushmaster AR-15 clone. don't recall what it's called.

[kevyn668]

So take it case by case w/ your GM.

It seems like the skill is a representation of three factors: 1)Range of engagement, 2)Rate of fire, and to a lesser degree 3)Weapon Frame.

Much like the American Judicial System, its not perfect but it works well enough. :)

[BitBasher]

[mfb]

well, it works well enough if you're either unfamiliar with firearms, or are willing to suspend your disbelief further than usual.

i mean, look at it this way--if the difference between rifle and AR lies in the autofire, then why isn't there a Machine Pistol skill?

[kevyn668]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Raygun]

[mfb]

addendum, then--they work fine if:
a) you're unfamiliar with firearms;
b) you're willing to suspend your disbelief further than usual;
c) you fix them!

[Raygun]

I guess my fix is to add a Machine Pistols skill.