Heavy Pistol construction., Building a better gun. Options

[Siege]

Aust: Don't even get me started on the combining of "Etiquette" as a general skill.

As we are well aware, the SR skill set is not an even representation with the same guiding principle applied throughout. Look at the technical skills for pity's sake. Biotech covers a hell of a lot for just one skill.

So your short answer is right - game balance. What skills get snatched up first? Combat skills.

My justification just happened to be one several possible answers that seemed to click with a couple of people. (Thanks Kev. :grinbig: )

Mfb: why not machine pistol skill?

Because the shortened range and effective distance still renders it within the realm of a handgun. It's a handgun with a nifty rather than an entirely new weapon like a SMG - which is a pistol but with more toys, better frame and an entirely new effective range, whether or not the shooter opts for SS or BF or FA modes.

@Seperate skills with each weapon?

Sure, why not? If any player actually re-assembled the Steyer AUG into a rifle or SMG format, my GM wouldn't have any problems requiring the player to use the relevant skill for the new configuration.

However, flicking the AR into single-shot mode and using it in a sniper capacity doesn't alter the basic function of the weapon; the shooter just isn't using all of the possible options of the weapon.

How's that for tap-dancing?

-Siege

[mfb]

well, and to use the Rifle skill when you're using semi-auto. that's what it seems like you're saying, at any rate, unless i misunderstand.

[Siege]

Or I explained it badly.

Handgun - short range, specific weapon design and how to best use fire modes available to the weapon: SS, SA, BF.

SMG - longer range, specific weapon design and how to best use the fire modes available to the weapon: all of the above, plus FA.

AR - longer range still, specific weapon design and well, you know.

Rifle - longest range possible of small arms, specific weapon design and how to best use - etc.

The dynamics involved in shooting a handgun - holding the weapon, adjusting for recoil, etc. are different from the principles involved in shooting a SMG and different again from shooting an AR.

Each weapon uses some of the same principles, but not enough to make an absolutely seamless transition from one to the other. Could an infantry grunt use an Olympic marksman's rifle? Probably. As well as a deer hunter could? Probably not.

The shooter using a handgun in whatever fire mode (SS, SA, BF) is going to be using different techniques from the SMG user who in turn will use different techniques from the AR user.

-Siege

[Fygg Nuuton]

also alot of assault rifles use a grip and a stock, wheres as many rifles use a grip/stock combo thinger (technical term)

some sniper rifles use assault rifleish designs, those are usually mutated from assault rifle designs though, they obviously differ from an AR (long range, scope, semi-auto)

submachineguns are usually shorter than an assault rifle, and use pistol-type ammunition.

99.99% of all pistols use a pistol grip

[tjn]

:( Appearently I wasn't as clear as I could have been.

[BitBasher]

[tjn]

Most, some, many...

These words you use imply that the two "different" weapons could be used in simular roles.

Knowing how bullet drop, windage, and expected travel time effect one's aiming is applicable to all shooting, even if more important to engagements at longer ranges.

Personally I lean towards a matrix of possibilities, that reflect the role in which it's used more then the physical dimensions of the gun... however where I always get stuck is implemtation. I don't want to create more skills due to the breadth of other skills, but I also don't want to create a single "firearms" skill for play balance purposes.

Shouldered or Pistol grip
Firing Modes
Expected Range of Engagement

Currently toying with a kind of "mini-skills" that are added together as the skill in use... but combat's already too complicated for some of my players (which is something else entirely).

[Raygun]

[hyzmarca]

[Siege]

I think Ray summed up quite nicely what I was trying to say regarding rifles and ARs.

As to the pistol/machine pistol, I disagree. You are still dealing with a short-range weapon of this basic configuration and the skills (i.e. manual dexterity, hand-eye coordination, target acquisition, sighting, adjusting for recoil, etc.) needed to use the burst capability are not so radically different from the more conventional SS/SA modes currently available on SR handguns.

Any better and you have an SMG - which does require it's own skill.

-Siege

[Austere Emancipa...]

I think it's totally pointless to discuss whether using assault rifles is different from using rifles. Of course it is. That's why Rifle |= Assault Rifle. If the weapons are different in even the slightest detail, then using them will work differently.

The point is to discuss whether those differences are large enough to warrant separate skills in the Shadowrun system, compared to how other skills have been separated. For example, is firing Rifles as clearly distinguished from firing Assault Rifles as the Computer skill is from Electronics? Is it as difficult to go from firing an AR to firing a SMG as it is to go from driving a motorcycle to driving a sedan?

My answer is: absolutely not. I didn't notice any problems with recoil (or indeed notice any recoil) going from the 7.62x39mm RK62 to the 7.62x54mmR TaKi-85 or the 12G 2-3/4" Remington M870. The difference in grips is totally insignificant. The firing positions and techniques (apart from how to cycle the actions) had already been taught in detail with the RK. I do not think cycling the action is a very important of the weapon skill, however.

We'd already been trained how to take wind conditions into account with the RKs, as well as proper breathing techniques, how to brace the weapon, finding good firing positions, camoflaging, etc. Similarly we'd been trained to do MOUT and CQB with the ARs.

The differences do include the situations where the weapons would be employed, like Raygun explained. The 300 meters I fired the TaKi-85 (Sniper Rifle-85) at was around the extreme effective range of the RK-62, yet a very short range for the TaKi. MOUT and CQB would be the only thing we'd ever carry shotguns for.

So there are huge amounts of overlap with the different long arms. Not total overlap, that's why the different weapons have got different names. But enough for me to consider them to be far closer to each other than any other separated skills. And since I've never noticed any negative game balance effect from combining many of the Combat skills, I've never come across any reason not to. Thus I keep them combined.

[Arethusa]

And, again, I really must emphasize that many of you conveniently ignore the fact that no other Shadowrun skill set sees this level of division. Just look at Athletics, Sorcery, Biotech, Demolitions, or practically anything else.

[BitBasher]

[Siege]

We are hardly ignoring it.

I'll be one of the first to admit that the SR skill set is not consistent in its approach and handling of skills.

As Aust pointed out before, Firearms is split into seperate skills while Demolitions, Athletics, Etiquette, Electronics, Biotech, etc. are not.

And he makes a very good point as to why that happens -> game balance. What skills are grabbed first? Mostly a rhetorical question, but combat skills lead the pack.

Now, if you really want to re-write the SR skill system, knock yourself out. Most people just opt to houserule the bigger parts that bug them and ignore the glitches that don't bother them.

-Siege

[Austere Emancipa...]

[BitBasher]

[Austere Emancipa...]

I don't mind diversity. Ours views differ in what kind of diversity we want, apparently. I don't need the kind of diversity that springs from the forced specialization brought forward by a large number of separate weapon skills. Just like I don't need the kind of diversity that separating the Sorcery skill by spell category would undoubtedly cause. I wouldn't mind having very, very few stats to describe characters, if such a game would somehow manage to handle most situations in sufficient detail.

[w8n4s8n]

So how would you generalize the skills? What makes more sense?

Handguns (Light/Heavy Pistols, Machine Pistols)
Rifles (Submachine Guns, Assault Rifles, Sport Rifles, Sniper Rifles)
Heavy Weapons (Light/Medium/Heavy Machine Guns, Assault Cannons)
Shotguns

That kind of thing?

[Arethusa]

Short Arms (pistols and one handed SMGs)
Long Arms (SMGs, assault rifles, sniper rifles, shotguns, etc)
Heavy Weapons (machineguns, etc)

There's some swapping around that can be done, of course. Handling an M249 is not exactly all that far removed from handling a rifle, so you may want to put man portable machineguns in Long Arms. Regardless, those three divisions are basically as sensible as it gets.

[BitBasher]

just remember sensible and balanced are not always the same thing. :D

[Austere Emancipa...]

[otomik]

very similar to what arethusa just described, the spycraft firearms weapons proficiencies are
Handguns (things with a pistol grip that can be fired one handed)
Rifles (things that you put up against your shoulder to fire properly)
Tactical Weapons (stuff you probably don't know how to use unless you have military training, battle field impliments like mortars and belt-fed stuff generally)