 Heavy Pistol construction., Building a better gun. |
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 Jul 26 2004, 03:52 AM
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#51
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375  |
Really? People can tell the stopping power of your gun by how you shoot a guy w/ it a bunch of times...and then he dies? Or if you're loading special ammo (EX EX, HE, APDS) by just because they die when shot? Interesting.
Again, if there were canon rules on this. Which there aren't. As I've already stated. Also, I doubt you could tell the make of the weapon by the bullet. You might be able to guess based on number of shells but thats about it. Lets not forget caseless ammo which seems to be all the rage in SR.
I'd love to hear how someone could guess how many rounds a weapon holds based on crime scene investigation. Really. :please: As for picking up the pieces and building a profile, I'll need book and page references on that before I worry about it. Unless the GM states that is how things are handled, that is not how things are handled.
I completely agree. :) |
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Jul 26 2004, 04:00 AM
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#52
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
If you look back through some of the old novels and adventures you see a couple of people with custom or unusual weapons. The people who always seem to notice them are the other bad guys, not the cops. The shadows start to mark this guy with a rep for using a certain weapon and it becomes attached to his name. Personally, I'm always a little more worried about the criminal element gunning for me than the cops, as the criminals will happily gack me for my 5000 :nuyen: pistol/rifle/shotgun what ever while the cops are more interested in the crimes I commit.
As a side note, my current character has murdered 19 people with the same heavy pistol. Of those 19, about 2 were found by the police. Even if all 19 had been linked together the gun will only add time to my case. The cyberware I possess as well as the explosives and other weapons would get me a life sentence not counting all the cyber crime I have committed with the deck implanted in my body. As many people have said, getting caught with a murder weapon only insures a life/death sentence. I have no SIN, I have no rights. Why get rid of the weapon I have become very comfortable with. |
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Jul 26 2004, 04:04 AM
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#53
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
They'll know the exact size and construction of the projectile -- obviously, since it's still there. They'll know how fast it left the gun and how fast it impacted with whatever it impacted with -- with 2060s technology, this will be a piece of cake, just from the appearance of the damage the projectile has caused compared to the size/shape/construction of the projectile, as well as how the projectile has deformed. Although no such thing as "stopping power" exists when you consider handguns fired by humans at humans, if there was such a thing, this would be it. The size and construction of the projectile combined with the velocity. Nothing else to it. |
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Jul 26 2004, 04:07 AM
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#54
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
And again we come back to the whole "it's not an issue because it'll only come up if the GM wants it to come up as a plot element... and if he does, it doesn't matter what weapon you're packing."
Sometimes style is more important than substance. This happens to be one of those times. Go with whatever you think fits your character the best. |
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Jul 26 2004, 04:22 AM
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#55
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Austere, I think he's saying that regardless of forensics, you're not going to become known as the guy who carries the marginally more powerful pistol around town, and you sure as hell aren't going to be recognized as the guy who carries the marginally more powerful pistol in the middle of combat. In combat, most likely your opponents will recognize that you are a guy with a gun and that'll be where it stops. Having a really unique weapon really only matters on the forensic level (though a chrome gun is going to draw attention in other ways, naturally).
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Jul 26 2004, 04:25 AM
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#56
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Maybe. And that may well be true. However, he also implied that forensics won't reveal exactly how powerful a gun was used -- which is not true. |
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Jul 26 2004, 04:28 AM
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#57
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
If there's a teacup sized exit wound (or none at all) The gun wasn't horrendously powerful. If there a hole in the dude the size of a bicycle wheel, however...
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Jul 26 2004, 04:33 AM
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#58
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
I am offended at the implications of this phrase. Style should always be the final factor in SR decision making. The style in question may simply be "make the biggest holes in the wall possible with a weapon of that class," but style should still have the final say in the debate between the voices in your head. |
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Jul 26 2004, 04:58 AM
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#59
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, kevyn668, trained forensic investigators can indeed determine the "stopping power" of your gun based on how many times you had to shoot him before he finally died. if the evidence shows you shot the target fifteen times, and the target was still moving (as determined by blood trails), then your weapon had very little stopping power. if you hit him once and he keeled over dead (based on how much blood was pumped out of the wound, and how much just settled within the body), then your weapon maybe had a bit more stopping power. of course, hit location must also be taken into account; a .22 in the eye has more stopping power than a .357 in the knee. and this doesn't even get into studies like wound trauma, in which the forensic investigator studies the exact effects the bullet had on the target by examining the wound or wounds. if that doesn't indicate the stopping power of the weapon, i don't know what would. not to mention simply digging the bullets out--if it's a .50AE, your weapon has stopping power in whatever scale you choose to measure it.
the question was not about canon rules. the question was whether or not you could be identified by your custom weapon. the answer is "yes, eventually". you can guestimate the number of rounds the weapon held by studying where the shell casings landed. if you see lots of piles with fifteen shell casings in each pile, chances are the guy had a 15-round clip. this isn't possible at every crime scene, of course, but it's possible at some of them. unless the GM states that all cops are idiots, you should probably assume that this is how it's handled--at least, you shouldn't act surprised when your GM offers up stuff like this as an excuse, when he decides that he wants Lone Star to nab you in order to progress a run he has in mind, and you question how the Star found you. the book and page references you asked for can be found in the Lone Star sourcebook, in the Forensics section. it talks about pretty much exactly the same stuff i'm talking about. it doesn't give rules, of course, because players aren't generally expected to be forensic investigators. it does, however, give your GM the ammunition he needs to nail you to the wall with forensic evidence. and for chrissake, watch a few episodes of CSI or CSI: Miami. they may not be the most realistic shows on TV, but they've got a stronger grip on the realities of forensic evidence than you seem to. |
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Jul 26 2004, 06:14 AM
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#60
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
BULLSHIT! This comes up constantly. SINless definitely do have rights, they are probationary citizens. They do not have rights of full citizens but they are definitely protected. This has to be the hardest to stamp out misconception about the SR world I can remember. |
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Jul 26 2004, 06:14 AM
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#61
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 4-February 03 Member No.: 4,007 |
There seems to be some concerns about forensics tracing you. What about magic? Given the ritual linking rules from SOTA:2063 whats to stop a forensic mage from ritually linking a bullet back to the gun that fired it?
Pel |
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Jul 26 2004, 06:23 AM
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#62
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Ritual links only connect to living matter.
No matter how often you think your gun is talking to you, she does not create material links. -Siege |
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Jul 26 2004, 06:50 AM
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#63
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 4-February 03 Member No.: 4,007 |
Where is the restriction on living matter? One of the examples given in SOTA:2063 was a mage linking a brick to a chip of that brink she planted on a target. Most bricks don't talk either :) If you can link a brick to a chip of that brick I don't see why you can't link a bullet to the gun that fired it. Yeah, it would be harder as the link isn't as direct... so the Star only pulls this out for the big cases.
Pel |
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Jul 26 2004, 07:06 AM
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#64
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Ok, I have a headache now.
You could use psychometry to try and track details based on the bullet casings found at the scene. However, the ritual link planted on the subject, while indeed inanimate (? That's a new one for me), has to be something placed by the mage. "Use the larger to find the smaller" - the chips of stone can be tracked by using the big building as a ritual component. Those specific bullets are not an integral part of the gun - whereas the chips are a fundamental part of the building itself. Of course, this is strictly my interpretation and a reminder why I don't try to understand the magic system anymore. -Siege |
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Jul 26 2004, 07:41 AM
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#65
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
All that CSI stuff that mfb was talking about applies to normal firearms, too. Not just a custom weapon. Right now, everyone in the campaign i'm playing in/running occasionally has at least one, as do a fairly good number of NPC's. It's really not that hard to get one, even after chargen.
Yes, they can link all the rounds you leave to the same gun. They can do that if you're using a Super Warhawk, if you're using a Predator, a Manhunter, or something you had tailor-made. But they're not going to pick up one round you've left from your custom and automatically KNOW it was you. Getting pinched for murder one is just as easy with a normal, run-of-the-mill pistol as it is with your brand new baby, Charlene. |
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Jul 26 2004, 11:14 AM
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#66
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
No, being able to link different crime scenes together makes things more dangerous for you as your career progresses. A non custom weapon is disposable if necessary, common, solid, relatively cheap, and much less of a potential liability.
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Jul 26 2004, 02:24 PM
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#67
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
By the 2060s, I'd expect forensic facilities to have a computer program that you simply feed the 3D image of the wound cavity (req: 1 x Camera, Optic, Fiber) and it will give you just about everything you might want to know about the projectile, such as who made it (if a mass-produced round), the exact design of the bullet, the angle and velocity of entry, etc. Given the huge leaps in understanding the human anatomy that have occured in the SR world, this would be extremely simple to do. In any case, if you really use some überpowerful handcannon, it will be really easy to spot even without any advanced technology simply by the entry and exit wounds and the cavity on a quick lookie by a forensics d00d. 30 seconds after finding the body, they'll go "It's the .440 Cor-Bon Killer again" instead of "Seems the murder weapon was a .38 caliber handgun". If you consider the 10M handguns to be rather common, however, I don't think there'll be that many problems. |
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Jul 26 2004, 02:41 PM
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#68
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
mfb: Your initial post used the word "noticed." As in "stopping power would be noticed right away." It mentioned nothing about forensic investigation. It implied to me that someone was observing the shooting. Not investigating the corpse. So maybe we just have some miscomunication there.
That's a stretch and you should know it. If there were 5 piles of 3 shell casings, I wouldn't neccessarly think that the shooter had a 3 round mag. All of this assumes cased ammo, of course.
The Star knows where I am based on my gun. Wow. Those guys are sharp! :) Its amazing that anyone runs the shadows and gets away with it... I wouldn't question it. All I'm saying is that there are no dice rolling rules for this. I don't question it when some strange fixer calls up my char's secret cell number. Though I do get a little annoyed when the NPCs always seem to know RIGHT where I am despite all fo the precautions I take--fake IDs, multiple safehouses, checking for astral/physical tails, etc.
So there are no rules right? As in "roll X number dice against Y TN and apply successes to...bla, bla, bla..." No? Then the GM doesn't need any fluff from the LS book. Its just a plot hook. He wants you between a rock and hard place for whatever reason and blam-o, there you are. But what does that do? Now you get to roleplay a trial. Sign me up for that! :S Or is this the set up for "We have an offer you can't refuse"? B/c I think we've all been there.
:please: I do have a pretty realistic grip on forensics, thank you very much. Most of the conclusions you say forensics experts can come up with wouldn't hold water in court and that's really what forensics is about. Ask a forensic investigator. I did. Those shows are such utter crap I can't believe such an educated person as yourself would recomend them to anyone. God forbid someone have a different opinion than you, it seems. The way I'm looking at it, we're pretty much argueing the same side of this: The GM can nail you whenever he or she wants. AND he or she doesn't have to roll dice to do it. Should you bother with running a rat tail file down the barrel of your gun before ditching it in the Sound after every single time you use it? Maybe. Depends on your GM and the type of game you in. Nobody wants to comment on how the melee combat PhysAd would have to ditch his Rating: 4 Weapon Focus in an industrial blast furnace after every time he dices someone up? We're just gonna screw the gunbunnies, huh? Typical.
Possible. But as of right now there is no way to determine caliber of the bullet by examining the wound. There are just too many variables. |
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Jul 26 2004, 02:50 PM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Right now it's not possible to create a Smartlink system, or to make a Move-By-Wire implant, nor are there suborbital commercial flights, etc. Of course you can decide that in your game there has been zero technical advancement in the field of criminal forensics. That's your prerogative. In the "Shadowrun Kaers" and related threads, some people even seriously suggested that they don't think there has been any technological advancement that has not been clearly stated to have happened in a SR canon rulebook, so such a stance is not even rare. I am one of the people who believe in a more balanced and logical (and, yes, realistic) rate of technological advancement. I believe some of the goodness that allows the people of 2060s to implant a new computer-driven nervous sytem into an adult human will also be used to catch criminals. |
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Jul 26 2004, 02:53 PM
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#70
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Fair enough. I was just stating the current state of affairs.
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Jul 26 2004, 04:45 PM
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#71
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
I've always thought of upgrading from 9M to 10M a simple matter of going to a larger caliber bullet, say, from a 9mm to a .45. It's only +1 power, for God's sake. You're not etching your name and address into every round. But, ok, say they DO have a supercomputer that can give you all the information you'd ever need about the weapon. If it's that easy, you're hosed no matter what. The fuzz would use said supercomputer as a matter of course and all your rounds from all your crime scenes would be linked together anyway. Simply going from 9mm (a common caliber) to .45 (a common caliber) or making your pistol burst-fire doesn't automatically bracket you, especially when you're using the frame of another heavy pistol that already exists. Hell, you can make your pistol burst-fire NOW if you know what you're doing. |
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Jul 26 2004, 04:51 PM
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#72
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Just the Glock, Smiley and a specific Glock at that. Haven't seen a conversion kit for my Sig as of yet.
Not that I've really felt the need to empty my magazine in three seconds flat, but then again who knows? -Siege |
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Jul 26 2004, 05:04 PM
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#73
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
actually, kevyn668, it's not all that far of a stretch. it's not usually possible to narrow it down to, say, a 15-round clip as opposed to a 14-round clip, but it's definitely possible to narrow it down to a 15-round clip as opposed to an extended 30-round clip. my initial post also went on to talk about forensics investigations, dude. relatively speaking, the wound effects of your weapon will be noticed right away, in the course of the forensic investigation. "right away", in this case, means "within the first day or two of the investigation". rules were not a factor in this discussion until you brought them in. the original discussion was on whether or not a customized weapon would get you noticed. and, yeah, based on the fact that you posted with a fairly derogatory tone about the possibility of profiling your weapon's characteristics based on what happens to people who have been shot by your weapon, i would assume that you have even less exposure to forensics investigations than i do--and all i know is what i've googled. review your response at the top of this page, specifically
and then tell me you'd have viewed anyone else who said the same thing as having any knowledge whatsoever in the area of forensics. one of the most basic studies in any crime involving gunplay is figuring out who got shot by what bullet, and that involves studying the wounds in order to determine what type of round was used--an especially helpful piece of information in cases where multiple people got hit by rounds from multiple weapons, as is often the case in shadowruns. evidence like this is integral to the forensics field; of course i'm going to assume you don't know what you're talking about if you downplay it. |
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Jul 26 2004, 05:18 PM
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#74
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Similarly it could be going from .45 ACP to high-end 10mm Auto. Or from high-end 10mm Auto to .44 Remington Magnum. Or from .44 Remington Magnum to .50 AE. Relatively speaking, the difference is about the same. It's all about where you draw the line. Since I can think of only one canon Heavy Pistol with a 10M Damage Code, I'd consider such weapons very rare. On the other hand, I don't use canon weapon rules.
Whoever said "they" have a supercomputer, or that it can give you any information you'd ever need about the weapon? I sure as hell did not. I said they might have a standard, off-the-shelf computer that is running "Wound Cavity Tracker for DrekOS, 1.4B" which can tell you just about everything you might want to know about the projectile in relation to the corpse it penetrated. That's a completely different thing.
(I have no idea what "fuzz" means.) No. Just, no. It would tell the "fuzz" that the murder weapon was probably a 4" barreled .45 ACP pistol fired at 7 meters with 185gr Remington +P Golden Sabers with a muzzle velocity of ~1037fps. It would tell them that the projectile entered the body at a low angle of 28 degrees, 4" above the navel, traveled about 1.2" before finishing its expansion to 0.69", traveled in a near straight line and exited between the 2nd and 3rd ribs, 3" to the right from the spine. Etc. That wouldn't help link several murders together unless you use the same ammunition and the same modus operandi. However, if you insert some really rare caliber, weapon and ammunition combinations to the above, people will link the murders together. There are thousands of criminals around who might carry 4" barreled .45 ACP pistols loaded with 185gr +P Remington Golden Sabers. There are not that many with 10" barreled .440 Cor-Bon pistols loaded with 260gr BHPs overloaded for a muzzle velocity of 1950fps. |
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Jul 26 2004, 05:43 PM
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#75
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Fuzz is (very) archaic slang for police.
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