Heavy Pistol construction. - Dumpshock Forums

Heavy Pistol construction., Building a better gun.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 05:47 PM Post #76
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Oh, right, so it seems. M-W.Com did recognize it after all. I suspected as much.

mfb View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 06:02 PM Post #77
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	cheese it, it's the fuzz!

Smiley

Jul 26 2004, 06:05 PM

Post #78

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

By the 2060s, I'd expect forensic facilities to have a computer program that you simply feed the 3D image of the wound cavity (req: 1 x Camera, Optic, Fiber) and it will give you just about everything you might want to know about the projectile, such as who made it (if a mass-produced round), the exact design of the bullet, the angle and velocity of entry, etc. Given the huge leaps in understanding the human anatomy that have occured in the SR world, this would be extremely simple to do.

Feeding in some snapshots of the wound and getting the exact design of the bullet, as well as the maufacturer, doesn't sound super to you?

But anyway, your "standard, off-the-shelf computer that is running 'Wound Cavity Tracker for DrekOS, 1.4B'" can tell you all that but can't link murders together now? The police WILL be able to tell that the rounds used to smear Security Guard A accross the wall were fired from the same gun as the ones used to do the same to Security Guard B last week. That will happen whether you're firing .45 ACP rounds from something that used to take 9mm or firing the regular, stock pistols in CC. Having a custom pistol doesn't make their job any easier.

[EDIT] Assuming, of course, you didn't get blinking neon lights put all over the outside and your name filigreed on the barrel. As I've said, anyone who does that deserves to be caught.

Smiley

Jul 26 2004, 06:07 PM

Post #79

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QUOTE (mfb)

cheese it, it's the fuzz!

:D That's exactly what was going through my head when I typed it :grinbig:

mfb View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 06:08 PM Post #80
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	no, it doesn't sound very super. it sounds like a 3d mapping program. given a standardized light source (so that shadows could be analyzed by the program to infer the z-axis), such a thing would be possible today--and it wouldn't involve a supercomputer, though it would definitely involve an expensive program and a very high-rez camera. having a custom pistol or using custom rounds will make it easier to find you because they know what to look for. if the crime was committed with a regular .45 pistol, they'd have to search through a lot of criminals who use .45s to find you. if the crime was committed with a custom round or pistol, they just have to find the guy with that custom pistol or round.

Smiley

Jul 26 2004, 06:11 PM

Post #81

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And this 3D mapping program can tell you who made the round, can it?

QUOTE

and it will give you just about everything you might want to know about the projectile, such as who made it...

[EDIT]When did I say anything about using custom rounds? I said .45 rounds from something that used to take 9mm. I'm not talking about designing some weird new caliber just for your own personal use. That's up there with the neon lights and gold filigree.

mfb View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 06:14 PM Post #82
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	right. and since most .45 rounds are made by huge companies that produce million-round lots at a time, knowing who made it isn't such a big help--especially since the rounds were probably sold illegally at some point, meaning that you can't track it down by sales receipts. edit: oh, you were questioning the ability of the program to figure out who made the round. eh, it's possible, especially for rarer rounds--you probably won't be able to determine the manufacturer of a simple .45 round by studying the wound. you might, however, by looking at the casing. re-edit: well, this whole discussion is about customized weapons. even if you, specifically, aren't talking about that, the rest of us are. shrug

Smiley View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 06:18 PM Post #83
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191	So they dig your .45s out of a few bodies and start looking for a guy using a .45. To me, that would make it a lot harder since you're firing a gun that's supposed to be 9mm, but you changed it. If they kick down your door and get your weapon, yes, they'll definitely know it was you. But if they do that, you're boned anyway. [EDIT]Use caseless. And yes, I am talking about customized weapons. I didn't think I was being unclear about that...

Austere Emancipa...

Jul 26 2004, 06:20 PM

Post #84

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QUOTE (Smiley)

Feeding in some snapshots of the wound and getting the exact design of the bullet, as well as the maufacturer, doesn't sound super to you?

No more than it sounds super to determine the specifics of a far-away star from the spectrum of light it emits. The principle is very simple. Once we gain better understanding of the fluid mechanics behind terminal ballistics, a very simple (by 2060s standards) computer will do this with ease. Compared to running a completely immersive, light-speed, global communication network, anyway.

QUOTE (Smiley)

The police WILL be able to tell that the rounds used to smear Security Guard A accross the wall were fired from the same gun as the ones used to do the same to Security Guard B last week.

That bit has absolutely nothing to do with wound ballistics. There's no direct way you can just the information available from a wound cavity to figure out which particular gun was used to fire the projectile that caused it. All it can tell you is that it was a 4" barreled .45 ACP pistol firing factory-loaded 185gr +P Remington Golden Sabers, like I already said.

To know it's the same gun, you need to recover the bullets and look at the rifling. If you are in a habit of leaving your bullets behind and not doing anything to hide the rifling, then yeah, the police are immediately going to realize that the same gun (or same barrel at any rare) was used in all the shootings, regardless of how rare the caliber or gun.

And what mfb said about finding you. A .440 Cor-Bon Mark XIX Desert Eagle with a 10" barrel is much easier to track than a M1911. I will admit, however, that it is not altogether likely that you will get tracked down by your gun alone, unless you are a bit sloppy in getting the parts.

mfb View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 06:23 PM Post #85
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	well, yes, except that many weapons can be purchased chambered for any number of rounds--you can buy the same gun in .45, or 9mm, or .357 SIG, or whatever. having a firearm that's usually chambered for 9mm, but which you've altered to shoot .45, won't throw the fuzz off all that much. yes, many firearms in SR use caseless. however, please don't mention the fact that, by the rules, any firearm in SR can be purchased as either cased or caseless, because that rule makes my brain hurt with its stupidity and hopleless insanity. do it in your game, if you wish. just don't tell me about it.

kevyn668

Jul 26 2004, 06:25 PM

Post #86

Runner

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QUOTE

mfb Posted on Jul 26 2004, 01:04 PM
actually, kevyn668, it's not all that far of a stretch. it's not usually possible to narrow it down to, say, a 15-round clip as opposed to a 14-round clip, but it's definitely possible to narrow it down to a 15-round clip as opposed to an extended 30-round clip

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I'm not saying its impossible but it is unlikely that a forensic investigator would be able to say with a high degree of certainty how many rounds a weapon holds. They have this thing about high degree of certianty due to the amount of testifing they usually do. Also, they wouldn't really need to know that info if they had a slug from the body and the gun that they suspect was the previous owner of that slug. Its a fairly simple test after that.

Either way I agree to not nitpick at that anymore. :)

QUOTE

my initial post also went on to talk about forensics investigations, dude. relatively speaking, the wound effects of your weapon will be noticed right away, in the course of the forensic investigation. "right away", in this case, means "within the first day or two of the investigation".

Right, you did go on to say that but do to the vaguries of this medium I misunderstood that the "notice" was in the form of an investigation. I thought it was through visual observation of the shooting. Which is why I responded with a derogatory tone becuse I don't see how it would be possible to make any assumtions based on just the observation of the shooting.

QUOTE

rules were not a factor in this discussion until you brought them in. the original discussion was on whether or not a customized weapon would get you noticed.

Right again. I wanted the poster of this topic to be aware that there are no rules governing this area. Everytime some one says "you have to throw out your guns after run" or "a custom gun will just get you busted quicker by the forensic techs" I get annoyed becuse you don't have to and it won't. Its probably not a bad idea to clean out the gun cabinet every once and a while but its not the same as failling to wipe your aura signature off the astral when you zap some sod with a manabolt.

QUOTE

(kevyn668)
Really? People can tell the stopping power of your gun by how you shoot a guy w/ it a bunch of times...and then he dies? Or if you're loading special ammo (EX EX, HE, APDS) by just because they die when shot?

Interesting.

and then tell me you'd have viewed anyone else who said the same thing as having any knowledge whatsoever in the area of forensics. one of the most basic studies in any crime involving gunplay is figuring out who got shot by what bullet, and that involves studying the wounds in order to determine what type of round was used--an especially helpful piece of information in cases where multiple people got hit by rounds from multiple weapons, as is often the case in shadowruns. evidence like this is integral to the forensics field; of course i'm going to assume you don't know what you're talking about if you downplay it.

Of course I downplayed it. From where I was sitting, it appeared that these deductions were made from observing a shooting. But you're right, I'd be all over someone that downplayed the ability of forensics to identify different rounds. And its actually the round that is studied more than the wound itself.

I think it was the CSI thing that really ticked me off. Crime Scene Investigation was a specialization of my Criminal Justice major back in college and I did a mini-internship with an independent forensics lab. Consequently, I hate those shows. Talk about glorifing a job...All I know is this: 1) I never got to ride around in a Hummer and 2) If you ever happen to find yourself at a crime scene investigation, the first thing you should do on site is look up. :)

That being said, I do not consider myself an expert in any way.

This post has been edited by kevyn668: Jul 26 2004, 06:35 PM

mfb View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 06:28 PM Post #87
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	cool. (my favorite part of CSI is how the forensic techs get to conduct all the investigations.)

Austere Emancipa...

Jul 26 2004, 06:30 PM

Post #88

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QUOTE (Smiley)

And this 3D mapping program can tell you who made the round, can it?

Yes. Because most major manufacturers have recognizable differences in how they manufacture their bullets. With close investigation (as you would get with a very high-imaging camera) of the wound cavity, you could differentiate between a Gold Saber, a Hydra-Shok and a Ranger SXT, because their expansion happens at different rates, their expanded shapes are different, etc. Compare the appearance of these, these and these.

Using specialty ammunition is part of customizing your weapon. The EX-Explosive ammunition of the SR 2060s would probably see the same kind of branding and competition as the JHPs of today.

All this would require better understanding of exactly how the different human tissues react to different sorts of trauma than we have IRL. I am assuming that understanding exists in SR, because of all the cyberware, bioware, nanomedkits, etc.

Smiley

Jul 26 2004, 06:35 PM

Post #89

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QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Jul 26 2004, 01:25 PM)

Right again. I wanted the poster of this topic to be aware that there are no rules governing this area. Everytime some one says "you have to throw out your guns after run" or "a custom gun will just get you busted quicker by the forensic techs" I get annoyed becuse you don't have to and it won't. Its probably not a bad idea to clean out the gun cabinet every once and a while but its not the same as failling to wipe your aura signature off the astral when you zap some sod with a manabolt.

Amen. Even if the 00ber-program could identify the rounds from a picture of the hole they left, the police would be left with a manufacturer that mass-produces, and whose rounds you probably got illegally. If you could be found out based on THAT, there'd be no point in shadowrunning because anyone who ever picked up a pistol would be in the clink a few days later.

Austere Emancipa...

Jul 26 2004, 06:41 PM

Post #90

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QUOTE (Smiley)

00ber-program

I guess it'd be a bit repetitive for me to say that this would be pretty low-tech for the "bioware is antique" SR of 2064?

QUOTE (Smiley)

the police would be left with a manufacturer that mass-produces, and whose rounds you probably got illegally.

My whole point was all along that if you fire very common rounds from a big manufacturer from a weapon that is not that special or rare, there's no problem. However, a 10M BF weapon firing EX-Explosive ammunition is not very common, at least in my game, and would thus be easier to track down than a 9M SA weapon firing Normal ammunition. And, as I've been saying all along, you should play your world the way that seems most fun to you, regardless of what's "realistic".

mfb View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 06:42 PM Post #91
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	well, no. like Austere is saying, this program could easily narrow it down to a very specific model of gun--but if you're using a common model, that doesn't really help the police track you. it's like being able to narrow the list of suspects down to all white males with short, dark hair--that might occasionally be enough to pick someone out of a lineup, but it's unlikely to be helpful in your search for the criminal.

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 06:45 PM Post #92
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	So how does any of this matter if you have a gun customized to fire in burst fire mode? Or is made out of ceramic components? Or has a personalized grip? Or a smartgun-2 system? Or a range finder? Or a custom finish? Or engraving? Or an underbarrel mount? Or {insert other customization options here}? Various ammo types are also non-pistol specific. EX Explosive ammo is the same EX Explosive ammo whether its for a Ruger Super Warhawk (10M SS) or an Ares Predator (9M SA) or a Savalette Guardian (9M BF). You can even use one in the other.

Austere Emancipa...

Jul 26 2004, 06:52 PM

Post #93

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It is possible to figure out that the weapon is burst-firing. Again, if this is a rather common burst-firing weapon, it's no biggie. Glock 18s are plentiful. Burst-firing Desert Eagles are not. Just a matter of how far you take the customization.

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

EX Explosive ammo is the same EX Explosive ammo whether its for a Ruger Super Warhawk (10M SS) or an Ares Predator (9M SA) or a Savalette Guardian (9M BF). You can even use one in the other.

If you buy that, you can just as well forget absolutely everything you know about RL terminal ballistics or projectile-related forensic investigation. Or how guns work. Or what guns are.

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 06:53 PM Post #94
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	It's a reality of the game world.

kevyn668

Jul 26 2004, 06:53 PM

Post #95

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QUOTE (mfb)

cool. (my favorite part of CSI is how the forensic techs get to conduct all the investigations.)

Glad we got all that straightend out. :)

I think the part about the show that really made me laugh was how you see him imagine what happend. It always reminded me of those wierd sequences on Ally McBeal where she imagined something happening. :D

Smiley View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 06:54 PM Post #96
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191	So what if it IS burst firing? The cops would still have to have YOUR gun in hand to figure out it was you. Again, if it gets that far, you should already be kissing your ass goodbye. Something being burst-fire doesn't make it any easier to track, from the cop's point of view.

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 06:59 PM Post #97
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	Universal ammunition is also a reality of the Sixth World. Considering that, as far as I know, there isn't a single real-world firearm in canon Shadowrun (there's some similar names, but that's about it), that's a pretty good indication that somewhere along the lines of the next 60 years there was some huge technological advancement in firearms that completely replaced the firearms of old. Most likely, older firearms and ammunition types aren't even mentioned because, apparently, the SOTA changes in both armor and other firearms have completely outclassed them to the point of utter uselessness. If you're going to use the "technology changes over 60 years" argument like you did earlier in the thread, Austere, you have to stick with it all the way through. You can't -- or more correctly, shouldn't -- just limit it to one field.

Austere Emancipa...

Jul 26 2004, 07:05 PM

Post #98

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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

It's a reality of the game world.

If you really want to go there: There's nothing saying that the ammunition is the same after being shot out of the different guns.

There are plenty of utterly moronic excuses for why the same rounds fired out of two different handguns of about the same size would penetrate significantly different amounts of flesh or cause cavities of significantly different sizes. Assuming that the projectiles magically becomes larger and different in shape when fired out of a Ruger Super Warhawk is none more ridiculous than the others.

QUOTE (Smiley)

Something being burst-fire doesn't make it any easier to track, from the cop's point of view.

Assuming nobody else knows you've got the burst-firing gun, no. I'm assuming you got it somewhere, however. I'm also assuming that the guy you got it from might have said something to someone, and someone might have seen you using it, etc. If it's a rare weapon, or at least one that people very rarely see burst-firint, people pay attention and remember. And once again, it's simply a matter of just how modified it is.

Smiley View Member Profile	Jul 26 2004, 07:10 PM Post #99
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191	And once again, anybody you can find who is going to make a burst-fire pistol for you isn't going to be making one for JUST you. They probably have a business to run. And considering how handy a burst-fire pistol is, I'd lay good odds that it's not that uncommon a request.

Austere Emancipa...

Jul 26 2004, 07:12 PM

Post #100

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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

somewhere along the lines of the next 60 years there was some huge technological advancement in firearms that completely replaced the firearms of old. Most likely, older firearms and ammunition types aren't even mentioned because, apparently, the SOTA changes in both armor and other firearms have completely outclassed them to the point of utter uselessness.

This has nothing to do with the principles of terminal ballistics, unless firearms no longer do damage based on the wound cavity of a (semi-)rigid projectile penetrating a human body at high speeds. SR strongly implies that, as far as bullet contruction and terminal ballistics is concerned, very little has changed (apart from more powerful explosives to be packed into small-caliber explosive ammunition).

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

f you're going to use the "technology changes over 60 years" argument like you did earlier in the thread, Austere, you have to stick with it all the way through. You can't -- or more correctly, shouldn't -- just limit it to one field.

See above. Even if guns don't look much like they do today, even if all current calibers are gone, even if none of the exact bullet designs in existance today are there in the SR world of 2060s, the principles of terminal ballistics and identifying the projectile (as well as figuring out some information about the gun itself) based on it are the same.

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