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> So what next... in SR, What would you like to see more of?
Synner
post Jul 27 2004, 12:10 AM
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This thread comes from the discussion over on the SoE board regarding not so much that book but the direction the Shadowrun line has taken. Since I think this is an interesting discussion and mostly lost and out of place on the subforum, I'd like to bring it here. Part of the reason I'd like to see more debate on this is simply to get a sounding (however biased it might be) regarding not so much what people dislike about the current products (a trend which has been all too common on these boards of late) but rather what they would like.

Try to be constructive, there's no point in tearing stuff down if you yourself don't know what you want specifically or would like to see.
For what it's worth I'd like to ask posters to keep this as civil and constructive as possible. In the spirit of open discussion I'd like to ask people, especially those who seem to have a problem with the current direction, to come forward and say not what they wouldn't like to see but what they wouldlike to see for the next 5-6 Shadowrun books both in terms of content and general direction/focus. Literally, what would please you to see come up next.

As a couple of informative notes I'd like to add the following factoids that may or may not help the discussion (this is from European distributor sources but I am led to believe by the same that the situation is identical in America) :
* Adventures are selling worse than ever on the RPG market, campaigns sell marginally better but still far behind normal source- and rule-books.
* Single location books in any genre, except possibly Superheroes, are selling badly.
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Backgammon
post Jul 27 2004, 12:42 AM
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Shadows of the Middle-East
Shadows of Asia

Yes, in that order. Aside from that (which isn't really what you asked..):

I'd like to see things go worse. People are too happy. Sure the corps are supposed to keep the citizens completely numb and happy, but when I look at the SR world, well, it's not that depressing. Not good, but not that bad. There needs to be more flavour added to contrasts in SR. The gap between the good parts of town and the bad parts. Rich vs poor. And more people. I'd like a suffocating atmosphere, just way too much people in the cities. More slime on the walls.

Hmm... that's pretty vague. I'll wait for a few more answers and then rethink my stuff.

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Birdy
post Jul 27 2004, 12:48 AM
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General direction:


Less "Magic" (Try a few books without adding new). Develop the line started with the Leech-construct and add technical methods against some magic influences etc. Currently in most scenarios you can play a mage/ki or you'll better bring a book since non-mage Faces/Romeos/Thiefs etc are easily outclassed and useless

More "Streetstyle". It's a bleak future wether you base it on real life or the 80s Cyberpunk. SSG had some nice parts. More on street level operations (Maybe a book on gangs and low-level thugs/cartels, not on the big Dons and Ojabuns) You might add some stuff on the street-cops and penal system for a criminal campaign. As an alternate a "gumshoe" or "streetcop" campaign could be supported (Few people have the old LS book)

Turning the setting "down". Less "Survival of the Fittest/Renraku Arcologie" and more "Mikey Spillane/Dashil Hammet/TJ Hooker" It's not the amount of build-points that makes a street-level campaign, it's the general trend of the environment. The story has IMHO gotten "too big" when runners deal with big wyrms and have middle or upper class SINs. The world has to many bright spots

Maybe a "Gutterpunk" alternate setting that tells GM's what parts of the "official" universe to ignore/change to make it dirty and mean (Actually not that many changes necessary). Sadly Space/Underwater are already done by T:Wl otherwise a bleak setting in the style of the last SeaQuest half-season would have been nice.


Michael
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Synner
post Jul 27 2004, 12:51 AM
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QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 27 2004, 12:42 AM)
Shadows of the Middle-East
Shadows of Asia

I assume this means you're okay with the SoNA/SoE style format of books and their contents. Rather than say a Target: X or a single location/city book (either like Seattle or NAGNA). This is one of the points I'd like to bring up. How do you feel not only regarding the contents but the books themselves. Would you by a detailed single location book (like New Seattle), something less detailed but more encompassing (like the Shadows of books) or something in between (like the Target: X books).

And while on the issue, would you prefer such books contained more rules and more toys and less proliferous adventure seeds and background material?

Birdy - Just for reference, where would you place a book like SoNA or SoE on your "size" scale. Or wouldn't you do them at all?
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mfb
post Jul 27 2004, 12:52 AM
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electronic networking. i want to see more useable rules for things like controlling drone networks from a cyberdeck; surveillance via multiple sensory feeds (maybe using portable CCSS hosts); detecting and deciphering encrypted radio networks; decking from pocsecs; running programs from normal computers; using p2p networks to download low-rated/buggy programs; stats for non-BTL programs sold in Matrix bars; and tons of other stuff i can't think of off the top of my head.

i'd prefer a good mix of adventure seeds/material and toys. i don't prefer specific seeds, though--i'd rather see situations, like "Saeder-Krupp is stepping up operations against Ares" or whatever. fill out some general details of a situation like that, letting GMs create their own stories from it.

i also agree with those who say the setting should be a bit more depressing.
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CirclMastr
post Jul 27 2004, 12:56 AM
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Sort of building on what Backgammon said, I'd like to see some more dark and gritty flavor come up in the books. Though not so much contrasting (though it's sorely needed) as that people are generally unhappy. The bums in the streets are unhappy, the wageslaves are unhappy, even the rich are unhappy. "The world is not a good place, nor is there innocence for me to hide in."

I'd also like to see some more emphasis on new technologies and sciences. Geneware was a good start but there's not a lot that actually comes up in games (that I've seen, at least).

Oh, and more elf porn >_> :love:
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Large Mike
post Jul 27 2004, 01:01 AM
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I concur. Darker. Grittier. This is supposed to be about criminals, no matter how romantic their image. Even in modern society, a life of crime is rough and causes one to look over their shoulder alot.
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Enigma
post Jul 27 2004, 01:11 AM
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Personally, I'd like to see more "hook" style adventures (like Mob War and Blood in the Boardroom) and less detailed in every respect adventures. I appreciate more adventures in the same space is harder to write, however I know that personally, I would be guarunteed to buy any such book whereas for any "detailed"style adventures, I have a look through it and need to convince myself there's any need me to buy it.

In terms of direction, I like the approach that has been taken thus far. I like the sidelining of immortal elves, I like the fleshing out of dragons without the need ot go as far as stats (giving them personalities and goals rather than "a dragon is involved in this run and now you're dead"), I like the SSG and I'm a big fan of the SOTA book thus far. In terms of game development, focus less on every person in charge of every group being a mysterious person with no past and unknown magical abilities and more on their personality. I like to run adventures where the evil CEO type is not a magical death-machine cyberzombie free spirit, but is just a mundane guy who has appropriate brain-type cyberware, who is really smart and incredibly ruthless. More development of personalities who are not Ryan f%$%ng Mercury-level elite people - for example, skilled professionals who occasionally get hurt. I wouldn't be against the death of a few of those rediculous and unnecessary immortal elves, for starters - someone killed the Big D for God's sake, so why not a few of the IEs?

I'm also not against more technology vs less magic. At the moment, magicians are way too heavily over-powered - I find it impossible, for example, to run a one-player game where the player is a magician, because there is just no stopping them. I am keen for more cyberware, more bioware (especially) and possibly more equipment. I know it's not cool to say it, but I like the stat books - I think they add as much character to the game as the non-stat books.

I like the expansion of detail on the Matrix, and the increase of abilities and usefulness of deckers since Target: Matrix and Matrix. More of this would be useful, although I cannot for the life of me see where these could be further expanded.

And finally, please, someone assasinate Ryan Mercury in an embarassing way really soon. Have him choke to death on a twinkie on the toilet, or shot by an angry dwarf transvestite for dissing his hood, or beaten in hand-to-hand by an otaku, or caught sneaking into a porn shop and blown away by the 200-kilo owner with an antique shotgun or something. His mere existence is a blight on players everywhere.
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Skeptical Clown
post Jul 27 2004, 01:23 AM
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New Seattle is probably the best location book available right now, but I can understand why it's a tough sell to make another book like that. Really, it's probably not necessary; Seattle has everything you need for a deep location. I do vast prefer the Target style books to what I've seen in SONA and SOE, although honestly Target: Wastelands was a bit too narrow to use effectively, while Target: Awakened Lands was really too unclear in focus. UCAS (Boston in particular) and Smuggler's Havens provided enough juicy information and grit to keep a campaign afloat, and at least give enough material to stay in town for several sessions.

Honestly, there hasn't been that much innovation in equipment or magic in YEARS; really, I think very little new has been presented since second edition. I certainly think there's some room for new developments in both tech and magic. Just as an example, nanotechnology is nearly useless, and really could use beefing up.

What I DON'T look forward to is warfare and cultural conflicts; I've never run a mercenary campaign, and I don't really think Shadowrun is the most effective system or setting for it. So I don't have any interest in Algonkian-Manitou conflict, and I look forward even less to Middle-eastern jihadist conflicts; that's just a bit too close to reality to be either innovative, or fun. I'd be more impressed if the Middle-East went in some wildly different direction, like secularization and corporatization.

I'm not really sure what to explore next though. There is a lot of ground Shadowrun has covered. Maybe it just takes peeking in corners and under rocks that have only been covered perepherally. I think it could be interesting to have a Target style that focused on maybe half a dozen very different corporate enclaves, if they were distinct enough to be interesting, and porous enough that they weren't impossible for runners to penetrate and exist within. I'm sure there enough remote places that haven't been covered at all, but could house dirty, nasty places to run. Kazhakstan, or Africa, or Pacific islands or something.
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kevyn668
post Jul 27 2004, 01:48 AM
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I know I'll probably get blasted for this but...a book with more pictures of what stuff looks like (in English ;)). For me, alot of my character is based on image--I need to know what his gun (or his car or bike or his drone or etc.) looks like.

Edit: and no offense, but can they be realistic looking? Not the cartoony images that are lightly sprinkled through the CC and they should reasonably match the written descriptions. In 1st Ed, the pics were good but didn't always match the description, like the 227S (a conceal 5 SMG w/ a retractable stock depicted as fixed stock carbine w/ a big scope.)
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Ol' Scratch
post Jul 27 2004, 02:55 AM
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I know this is going to sound a bit hypocritical, but I would like to see more use of the metaplot in sourcebooks like Shadows of Europe.

I mean, if you're going to include the metaplot in the game, those are the types of books it should be explored in... not the modules. There were a ton of missed opportunities in Shadows of Europe. Very little of the immortal elves conspiracies were evident from what I've read (which, I admit, hasn't really been enough to comment on the book yet -- friggin' dyslexia slowin' me down), and considering that Europe isn't only their main stopping ground but the main base of the Fourth World... well... it just seems like there were a ton of missed opportunities in exchange for some rather dry and uninspired entries.

That's not to say that I don't like SoE -- I was particularly inspired by the fey entry to run an Amsterdam-based game (even if I'm moving their base of operation somewhere else since I really get tired of the whole "let's ruin a cool place by turning it into a toxic waste dump 'cause we're, like, tired of writing or something" angle that seems to crop up a lot in the game) not to mention some of the really minor things like the term "Street Witch"... I still can't believe I never thought of that one. It's just kind of dry and didn't really feel as Shadowrun-y as it could have.

All right, that said, what would I like to see in future sourcebooks?

1. More inclusion of the media. I mean, my god, for a game that constantly harps on about how "information is power," the #1 information junkies on the planet are largely ignored. Forget Lone Star detectives... a newsreporter should be any runner's worst nightmare!

2. Stronger play by the world's governments. Yeah, corporations are a staple in traditional cyberpunk, but Shadowrun isn't traditional cyberpunk. I'd love to see more of the FBI, CIA, NSA, Federal Marshals, and other government organizations but local and abroad. Ever since giving up so much power over hard-to-swallow judgements in the past, I find it even more hard to swallow that various governments would just sit around twiddling their thumbs while the corporations got to have all the fun. If anything, they should be hyper-vigilant about what little power they still have.

3. I would love to see a book dealing with magic on deeper, more interesting level. Not just a bunch of new spells and adept powers (though anything to give adepts more flavor is always welcome), but exploration of major metaplanes so that GMs don't always have to make everything up each time they want to use one. Yes, being able to create your own metaplane on a whim is nice, but having some well-established "settings" on the planes would be really nice. The astral plane is kind of dry and largely untouched by the game... and that's definitely something I'd like to see changed.

While I know Planescape didn't fare well, it was a great setting in and of itself. It added so much flavor to what was otherwise a dull, uninspired aspect of the D&D settings. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It doesn't have to be all inclusive, but... just anything concrete would be nice.

4. Advancements in technology. Not just bigger, more powerful stuff... but all new things. Like the development of wetware; circuitry that has biological components that trump the processing and memory storage abilities of cyberterminals. Memory could be so easy to store that it becomes a non-issue, and decks would have processor ratings that limit the number of utilities that can be run at one time instead of how much memory they take up and transfer speed would still be in play even if the amount of data being transfered would no longer have a limit. Not only could this breath life into an aspect of the game, but it would give the designers a chance to clean up rules that are pretty mucked up while simultaneously making the gameworld seem more alive and dynamic. Things like that. Only mentioned this one as an example 'cause it's something I've been messing around with for my own game. But anything along those lines would be welcomed.

Blah blah blah.
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Kagetenshi
post Jul 27 2004, 03:26 AM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
1. More inclusion of the media. I mean, my god, for a game that constantly harps on about how "information is power," the #1 information junkies on the planet are largely ignored. Forget Lone Star detectives... a newsreporter should be any runner's worst nightmare!

Amen.

More nanoware, more Matrix oddness, more mysteries that are posed but not explained; something like SotF could have been done much better if there was the barest of explanation and the outcome was mostly hidden, etc.

Playing Shadowrun, I've gotten to feel that, while I may not be a big fish in a small pond, I am a fish in a pond that I can comprehend the scope of. I want that feeling to be ripped away, torn to shreds, and never given back.

~J
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mfb
post Jul 27 2004, 03:28 AM
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definitely. leave the big stuff largely unexplained.
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Thanos007
post Jul 27 2004, 03:29 AM
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No more new weapons. Jeez there are enough now. Just slap a different name on it and go. With some of the weapons the differences are so little as to be non-existent. More gear for use on runs that aren't weapons.

The two target books I have, T:AL and T:WL, really amounted to additional rule sets and I felt they should have been included in other books or made as one. Also a return to a livelier shadow talk. The two target books we exceedingly dull and the shadow talk mostly reiterated what was said in the normal text.

How to present settings is a hard one. I don't think single settings are the right track to take but books like SoE are too crowded. Perhaps books with 3 to 4 settings with more detail. Also I don't think we really need anymore rules.

Thanos
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mfb
post Jul 27 2004, 03:31 AM
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i would definitely disagree with that last statement. at this point, SR techology is behind the modern day in some cases. that needs to be remedied.
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Skeptical Clown
post Jul 27 2004, 03:36 AM
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I'm honestly a little surprised at how little attention Shadowrun has paid to personal air transport. I think it's implied in both art and description that small helicopters are common transport in cities, but other modes of personal flight are nearly noexistent. I mean, flying cars have been a part of science fiction practically forever, and today they're not even technologically implausible.
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kevyn668
post Jul 27 2004, 03:40 AM
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In fact, they exist IRL...
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sir fwank
post Jul 27 2004, 03:40 AM
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personally i was disappointed with sota2063, i expected more cyber i guess. althought we did need mbt stats.

how about "the dark corporate laboratory?"
corporations and their really hidden secrets, maybe something like an extreme experimentation angle. i guess it would kind of amount to like deus and the arc, but with magic and actual research done by powerful organizations.
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kevyn668
post Jul 27 2004, 03:43 AM
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I don't think we need anymore chrome. What else do you want it to do? Like others, I would like to see more genetech and nanotech.
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Ol' Scratch
post Jul 27 2004, 03:48 AM
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Options are always good.
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Apathy
post Jul 27 2004, 04:12 AM
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QUOTE
I'd like to see things go worse. People are too happy. Sure the corps are supposed to keep the citizens completely numb and happy, but when I look at the SR world, well, it's not that depressing. Not good, but not that bad. There needs to be more flavour added to contrasts in SR. The gap between the good parts of town and the bad parts. Rich vs poor. And more people. I'd like a suffocating atmosphere, just way too much people in the cities. More slime on the walls.

I just finished reading the last of Kage's Wee Bit of Fiction thread, and that's the kind of background setting I'd like to see, especially the first bit in the sewers. Very dark and gritty. They're trapped -- tired, dirty, desparate... Is there a way set the tone in the books more like that?

And I'd second the comments about the artwork. Less cartoony and more realistic. (here are some examples of the level of realism I'd push for: 1, 2, 3, 4)

Please note that these were just the first 4 sites I stumbled across that I liked. No disrespect or criticism intended toward those not listed.

Also note that dispite the artwork on some of the links I posted, this isn't a call for books full of 'cheesecake' pictures. I'm just using them to illustrate what I mean by realistic as opposed to 'cartoony'.
[ Spoiler ]
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Jason Farlander
post Jul 27 2004, 04:16 AM
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This is not a new complaint, but it seems that adepts dont get nearly as much attention as the other archetypes. MiTS really focused a lot more on spellcasters, and I would like a book that focuses significantly more on adepts than the other books have. It doesnt really seem like such a thing is planned anytime soon... but yeah.

Other than that, I agree that things could be a little gritter. Make it suck a bit more to live in the 2060s, as the better off people are in general, the less sense it makes for people to become shadowrunners.
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Userlimit
post Jul 27 2004, 04:16 AM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Jul 27 2004, 02:55 AM)
I know this is going to sound a bit hypocritical, but I would like to see more use of the metaplot in sourcebooks like Shadows of Europe.

I mean, if you're going to include the metaplot in the game, those are the types of books it should be explored in... not the modules.

I agree with that completely.

But on the other hand i'd really like to see a Ganger's Book that someone else was talking about. Maybe describing certain warlords in the barrens, or even smaller gang infrastructure. I think an economic recession might be a fun route to explore, when suddenly a part of the city that was once suburbs becomes squalid gang turf. Maybe more of a look at road warrior type gangs outside of the cities.

My favorite book is probably Smugglers Haven, because it was a book about a new way to play the game. Though it was largely covering different places in the SR world, it was introducing a fresh role for Shadowrunners, and thats most of all what I think I'd like to see next.. Maybe in the form of the street/gutter style that a lot of people seem to want.

I like the artwork a lot like how it is, except that perhaps more technical pictures should be included of gear and the like.
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DeadNeon
post Jul 27 2004, 04:17 AM
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I for one would like a sourcebook or something which is really nothing more than a collection of maps. Thats the most difficult thing for me as a GM to create. Most of my buildings wind up being like something out of an old video game; nothing but a big square building.

Just general settings like "Waterfront Warehouse" or "Big-Time Nightclub"
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Domino
post Jul 27 2004, 06:22 AM
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I would like to see more unbroken cyberlimb rules.
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