 Trolls and Guns, Trolls can only use modified guns - Why? |
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 Aug 5 2004, 01:16 AM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538  |
So that's what the 10% price hike is for then? |
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Aug 5 2004, 01:51 AM
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#52
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
I'm with who ever said just modifiy a larger weapon. My troll sam used a spas 22 shotgun with chopped barrel and a pistol grip. You stick it in your belt, you are good to go. Take the M16 carbine varient (A4? don't know the real name), change out the top rail, lose the stock and modify the grip. Chop of the barrel and you have a pretty scary pistol.
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Aug 5 2004, 02:00 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Fair point. Can't put a silencer on a sawn-off shotgun and they tend to cover a large area.
How good are your customisations, the BFTG comes ready to go out of the box with a lot bigger clip. |
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Aug 5 2004, 02:16 AM
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#54
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
Modifying a bigger gun is easy and well within the rules. You can also increase the mag capacity of most clip weapons buy the firearm rules. As for creating your own gun, you would need the equivilant of a facility, not a shop. The machinery involved in the precision manufacture of a firearm is not small nor would it be cheap. Like any weapon design, there would be numerous prototypes before a real reliable working gun is produced. My GM allowed me to custom make a troll shotgun but I had to buy at least 25 to make it worth their trouble of setting up the machines and producing the damn things. Also, by the book they cost 10,000 apiece. I thought they were worth it but most small arms are produced in the tens of thousands (at least). Some company somewhere would do like most small companies do who sell to a niche market, copy someone else. They would take an AR or hunting rifle and rebuild it to make a troll handgun. This would eliminate the need for specialty ammo (again, the number of rounds produced for a small arm............) and make it much easier to sell at a cheap price.
As for militaries investing in troll weapons, I highly doubt it. They would just give the troll the heavy weapon and a run of the mill troll moded handgun for back up. Since your troll can carry vehicle weapons, why on earth would you shell out for a cool handgun? |
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Aug 5 2004, 02:30 AM
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#55
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But as I said, will it be at anywhere near the same velocity? Pretty obviously not, unless the explosion happens much faster than I think it does (which is possible). ~J |
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Aug 5 2004, 09:49 AM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 118 Joined: 20-June 04 Member No.: 6,423 |
For some reason, this thread reminded me of a weapon I made for SR. It was a special operations carbine primarily based off the Interdynamic MKS concept (it was technically a cross between the MKS, the Mini-Tavor, the Skorpion, and SIG assault rifles, but it's format was inspired by the MKS). After I sketched it out, I realized the result was a weapon that could be used as a shoulder arm (w/ the folding stock removed) as a rifle for dwarves, an assault carbine for humans, elves and orcs, and as a machine pistol for large sized metahumans like trolls.
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Aug 5 2004, 10:12 AM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 293 Joined: 27-January 03 From: Kentucky, USA Member No.: 3,958 |
That is so sigged. :D |
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Aug 5 2004, 11:23 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
1. The BFTG IS a modified bigger gun, just in production quantities 2. Yes you would for mass-produced Saturday night specials. You also need the very latest and best in materials and recoil systems for a human to fire a very powerful handgun. This isn't, in relative terms, a powerful handgun. It is a modified rifle used a pistol by a being who's arm is likely to mass more than an entire human. The recoil (based on RL physics) is scaled up from a Glock22 using .40S&W ammo. 3. Every gun ever owned by a troll is a custom design. Every gun every owned by a dwarf is a custom design. Trolls and dwarfs are not the same size or shape as humans. There is a massive market shift in SR compared to now towards customization. My team has 4 troll PCs and access to another 7 troll NPCs. 2 pistols each, that is 22 guns already. 4. In SR version of the USA, the troll population is 3% of how many millions and can anyone dispute that they live in a more violent world than humans. 40% of Americans buy guns today, you agree a safer time, no? That is a lot of armed trolls. Why do trolls have to pay a 25% premium on a gun for troll modification, surely if a gun manufacturer makes 100,000 pistols a year and 3% are bought by trolls that is 3,000 pistols a year that need larger grips and new trigger systems. That's a range all by itself, but it isn't in the rules probably because canon suggests that all trolls are thick as sh*t and just hit things. In SR's developed countries there are millions and millions of trolls. What are the world handgun sales for last year? Say only 1 in 9 trolls will bother to buy the gun that actually fits their hand and is capable of slowing a troll. Even at just 0.1% of developed world sales, sales of the BFTG amounts to a lot of guns. Honda Viking - Expensive troll motorbike for poor trolls to buy, they exist and they can never be mass produced. 40% of people in the USA have a gun; out of a total 120,000,000 commuters in USA 158,059 of them ride motorcycles to work regularly. That's only 0.12%, figures are from US Department of Census. So just how many Honda Vikings do you think are sold and they made it into canon. 5. What specialty rounds? The BFTG uses .50 Alaskan rimless rifle rounds, a common enough round, one of the reasons you have be a troll is use the gun is that the grip is massive to accomodate a standard rifle round in a pistol chassis format. Other (meta)humans simply cannot get their hands around the grip. .50 rifle and automatic pistol designs will have been about for around 2 centuries in SR, remember this is not a SOTA handgun. 6. A gun is not just about damage, its shape is defined by its function. A pistol is pistol shaped because that is the best shape for a side-arm. Vehicle weapons are inherently cumbersome, use a lot of and/or very expensive ammo and are resticted to military (battlefield) use only. Quite frankly, who is most likely to take on a troll, a troll; (Tanks fight tanks) I don't know about you, but who tries to take out an armoured troll with a pistol. Oh, and I can think of at least one place where the military would invest in troll sized equipment ,if just for the PR, a certain state in Germany. |
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Aug 5 2004, 11:36 AM
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#59
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Kage: You don't need that much velocity for a huge Damage Code. The theoretical BFTG by Raygun fires a 0.5" 450gr bullet at 2000fps, which is quite likely to be just as destructive as a 0.34" 250gr bullet at 3100fps -- the latter being the most bang you can get out of most common long range sniper rifles IRL.
I mean, you already have Heavy Pistols (in the range of ~0.45" ~200gr ~1100-1300fps) doing more Damage than Assault Rifles (possibly ~0.3" ~120gr ~2400fps). Compared to that, 14S for the BFTG isn't a big deal. We must also keep in mind that the .50 Alaskan discussed here has nothing to do with the .50BMG (which is used in the M2HB HMG, Barrett rifles, etc), apart from the diameter of the bullet. Personally, I wouldn't allow trolls to carry such huge weapons without also allowing them to withstand those weapons a bit better. At 12S, you need an average of 72 Damage Resistance dice to not lose consciousness when hit with a paltry 2 successes. Trolls would get killed in TvsT firefights much easier than humans in HvsH firefights. But these are 500kg, 2.8 meter bone-plated gorillas we're talking about here. They should stand at least as much punishment as brown bears and similar dangerous game. Heavy Pistols and Sporting Rifles should be the absolute minimum for defending yourself against such critters. So, giving them something as simple as -1 Damage Level, -33% Power against most attacks along with those bigger guns might be in order. |
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Aug 5 2004, 11:38 AM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Damage is about how much energy can be passed into a target. The damaging energy in a standard round is caused by kinetic energy over time. Kinetic energy is mass*speed so a heavy bullet travelling at a slower speed can impart the same damage as a light bullet travelling at a high speed. Also there is scale to take into account, even a shorter barrelled troll pistol would have a human SMG barrel length. |
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Aug 5 2004, 11:41 AM
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#61
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
No. Damage is about how well/quickly you can kill something. |
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Aug 5 2004, 11:53 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
You can't just chopdown a rifled/semi-auto gun and expect it to work properly. This is how I understand guns to work. 1. The angle of rifling in a barrel needs to adjusted for barrel length and bullet mass and velocity otherwise the incorrect rate of spin will decrease accuracy and power. 2. The mechanisms that correct recoil and chamber the next round are designed to work with a set gun balance. Chop a gun about and you lose some recoil compensasion and increase the chance of jamming a round. 3. The M16 carbine uses gas venting as a recoil reduction system. Chop the end off the barrel and kiss goodbye to the venting |
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Aug 5 2004, 12:03 PM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I seriously doubt this. I'm not an expert in this, but you have M16-family weapons with the exact same 1-in-7" twist with barrel lengths ranging from 533mm to 213mm designed to fire the same M855 ammunition. My understanding is that you only need a very short barrel to give sufficient spin to the bullet, and the rate of spin will always be the same.
Only with a recoil-operated weapon. Theoretically speaking, a gas-operated firearm (with the piston and everything) will work just fine as long as you cut the barrel in front of the gas valve.
It has a flash hider/muzzle brake, which is probably not very effective at reducing felt recoil. If that worries you, just smack the same flash hider back onto the shortened barrel. Anyway, you could just use a La France M16K or even a Colt M177E2 and simply modify the lower receiver. Not that I think a 200mm barreled 5.56x45mm weapon with a pistol grip would be that scary. Cutting down a semi-automatic, box magazine-fed shotgun and adding a huge pistol grip would make a much more troll-like weapon. |
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Aug 5 2004, 12:37 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Right, I've read through 2 pages now. Is this right. Only simple comparisons in the damage the damage between two different guns can be made. To ensure a simple comparison the bullets must be of a similar design with little variation composition. But all the good comparisons use kinetic energy, mass, density, size, shape and frangibility. There is just disagreement over the actual formula. For a simple explanation of why the BFTG would compare in damage potential with a light sniper rifle we can assume that the density, shape and frangibility would remain constant (ie. standard SR bullet). Therefore the variables are speed and mass. Faster-lighter bullet compared to slower-heavier bullet. 'Bout the same then for game purposes. For game purposes nymph's have just as many damage boxes as giants and are attacked with the same damage codes. |
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Aug 5 2004, 12:44 PM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Not really. The BTFG fires a bullet that is very likely to be blunter, closer to a round nosed shape than a spitzer like what most long range rifles fire. The bullet is also much larger in diameter. Both of these have a huge effect on the size of the cavity it crushes into a living thing. Also, comparing 150gr @ 3000fps vs 600gr @ 1500fps with solids is completely different from comparing the two with expanding, let alone fragmenting, bullets. With solid rounds, you just get deeper and larger holes with different kinds of temporary cavities and a bit of tumbling and such. With expanding rounds there's a whole lot more going on.
There is also disagreement over whether we need an actual formula right now, when nobody seems to have a clue how to do it, and we've got lots of ballistic gelatin to shoot holes into.
I know. But this isn't necessary. You've already got vehicles which do Damage Resistance against -1DL, ½ Power unless fired at with AV weapons. To simply declare that Huge critters do something similar is not a big deal. Not that I'll do it, because trolls are only ~2.2-2.3 meters tall and weigh around 200kg in my games, but it would make perfect sense. Something as large as a canon troll would stand up to a lot more punishment than what a paltry +6 DamRes dice represents. |
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Aug 5 2004, 01:02 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Yeah, sorry forgot about size halfway through the post, but I did decide to skip shape to retain some simplisity.
Not in SR we haven't! If you were forced to pick one, which one would it be?
In our game trolls weigh nigh-on a ton (imp), giants get close to 2 tons and are penalised everywhere they go because of it. A 200kg troll in your world couldn't fire a BFTG without serious recoil and probable injury, they're just too small. |
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Aug 5 2004, 01:11 PM
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#67
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
And they won't. They're just large enough to look like really bad motherfuckers, but they aren't too large to run into seriously problems everywhere.
This one, because it seems like the only one that's down to earth. It doesn't claim it can tell you how well it kills something, it just tells you approximately how big a hole the projectile will make. It's quite limited, however, and probably shouldn't be used for rifle rounds, and certainly not for expanding or fragmenting ones. People far smarter than me who've studied these things for decades don't trust any of the formulas, so I won't either. |
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Aug 5 2004, 01:13 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Just a thought, bullets are designed to deform in different ways depending on the materials shot - Armour piercing versus glazer safety rounds.
If bullets designed for soft targets produce different effects when they encounter harder targets what happens when you shoot a troll? They have, to a limited extent, bones on the outside as well as the inside. Dermal armour gives additional body dice, so if you get a resistance success does this mean the bullet hit bone before entering the body? |
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Aug 5 2004, 01:19 PM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Nothing special. The rounds simply penetrate less, as well as maybe expanding too much or fragmenting significantly. Assuming troll flesh and internal organs are very similar to those of humans, that's all the layer of bone will do. Not that it isn't significant. You already have to penetrate very far into a troll to get to the vital organs and the large arteries. With a thick layer of bone in front of them, you can forget about killing them with most pistol-caliber expanding or fragmenting ammunition. |
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Aug 5 2004, 01:25 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Maybe treat trolls as always armoured for flechette rules when shot with smaller than a hunting rifle? |
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Aug 5 2004, 01:29 PM
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#71
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If your trolls really weigh a ton, I'd rather go with the vehicle rules (-1 DL, ½ Power) for all but AV weapons. And forget about AV ammunition for anything smaller than a Barrett, HMGs or Assault Cannons...
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 Aug 5 2004, 03:00 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Harking back to the critism about market share being too small to make money on this project. I had a look at the sixth world website.
The information is, 2063 worldwide troll population comes to 218 million trolls, which is 3.32%. What were the total worldwide handgun sales last year? Bet it was a lot. Before you start on about borders and gun shipments. Corps manage OK, legit business do OK and have you heard of international franchising/licencing. Would it be popular. Well let's see. 1. Self defence - If you (a troll) are stopping a dimestore hold-up or mugging, you need to be able to stop a troll. After all you do live/work in an area with a very high proportion of disadvanted trolls and you can just hit anybody smaller. 2. Practicality - Off-the-shelf, designed on the right scale, no retro-fitting needed, fits in the bedroom draw, fits in a holster or pocket, can be used in one hand. 3. Usefullness - Will stop an intruder, will stop a troll, can be used for hunting, can be used to hunt bigger game, has enough ammo capacity to be used in combat arenas, more accurate than a shotgun, can stop lighter vehicles. 4. Running costs - Nothing fancy, no special ammunition required, low rate of fire (less bullets). 5. Legality - Not full-auto, not mil-spec, not caseless rounds. 6. Kudos - Can you repeat - Most powerful handgun in the world! 7. Overall cost - How much does it cost to maintain a man-portable heavy weapon system in the field compared to a troll with a pistol? |
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Aug 5 2004, 03:11 PM
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#73
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
This whole conversation is pretty much a moot point in my take on the setting. I've chosen to ignore the fluff descriptions of trolls being over 9 feet tall and instead made them a more practical 7-and-a-half feet tall on average like in the artwork. Their weight (about 500 pounds/225 kilograms) is the same, though, mostly because 500 pounds is horribly anorexic for a 9-foot tall supposedly beefy and clunk metahuman.
The art, weight, and rules for trolls support them only being mildly larger than other metahumans. Even their physical mods are only a little higher than an ork's (6'3"), who is only a little higher than a human's (5'7"). Give them a dwarven build (long arms and torso, relatively short human-length legs) and the Reach bonus and Running Modifier work just fine, too. And at 7'6" tall, weapons don't look totally absurd in their hands... modified or not. The modification just makes it more comfortable in their oversized hands (take a look at Andre the Giant's hand sometime in Princess Bride... it was larger then people's heads.. and he was only 7'2" with largely human proportions). |
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Aug 5 2004, 03:14 PM
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#74
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Are you arguing that a troll-specific handgun would exist or that it would exist and be carried at Sprawl-Mart?
-Siege |
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Aug 5 2004, 03:26 PM
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#75
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
In this, good Doctor Funkenstein, I absolutely agree with you.
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