Well here goes, Trolls are BIG, so big that every gun they want to use has to be modified before they can pull the trigger. New grips, trigger, trigger guard, safety, etc have to be fitted. In fact just about the only parts of the gun that wouldn't have to be modified are the internal firing mechanism and the barrel. In SR (especially artwork) a troll with a firearm is usually depicted as carrying LMG, MMG or assault cannon. Why then are there no guns designed to used solely by trolls, after all, what is recoil to a being that weighs as much as a large car.

Below is an email I sent to Raygun for some help on RL physics

"Unusual as it is, I am running a troll orientated campaign. Yep, 5 out of 6
characters are troll sized (2 Fomori, 1 minotaur, 1 giant, and 1 Wakyambi).

Between them they have the skills and access to a gunsmith workshop to
create customised troll sized weaponry. If SR standard guns have to be
modified for a troll (massive hands, tiny gun) to be able to fire the fiddly little
things, why isn't there a range of hand-cannons built just for trolls.

My players have raised the fact that the power of a round is primarily limited by
the amount of explosive chemical available, thus more propellant equals
longer rounds. A troll has a much bigger hand compared to the other
(meta)-humans. From researching on the web (big thanks to Raygun) I reckon that the longest pistol/smg round is 25mm (might be wrong). Our house rule is that troll handgrips have approximately twice the dimensions of a standard grip. This would indicate that a troll sized clip could give a maximum round length of around 50-60mm which appears to be into the realm of rifle ammunition.

What, in your opinion, would be effect of building a handgun capable of taking rifle rounds, other than that the gun could only be fired by a troll. From your extensive tables suggest the maximum length would appear to include the .243 Winchester (6.16x52mm), .50 Alaskan Rifle (OAL 63.75mm) and possibly extend to .500 and .510 Whisper (OAL 55mm). Obviously there are recoil, accuracy and range issues associated with firing such a handgun. "

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First piece of help from Raygun

Well, I guess it depends on how you invision trolls. In a lot of shadowrun art, Trolls have a much larger ratio of hand size compared to humans, so I don't think it would be out of the question to assume that the average troll's hand would be three to four times the size of a human's. Taking that into account, it would be possible for a Troll to use a much bigger cartridge in a custom, through-grip automatic pistol. I would think that something like a rimless .50 Alaskan (OAL 63.75mm) of shouldn't be much of a problem, and the pistol could be of very high capacity; 20-30 rounds shouldn't be a big deal.

If you use a simple recoil-to-body mass ratio to figure out how much recoil a human can regularly stand, you can scale that up to Troll size pretty easily. There are tools on my website and on the internet that will allow you to do this.

For example, the .40 S&W is about the standard sidearm cartridge used by police in the US today. We can use handloading data from a site like Alliant Powder to get the information we need to determine recoil force and use the weapons on either my site or a manufacturer's site to determine weapon mass. For example, a human firing a Glock 22 would have a ratio of:

.40 S&W (ammo)
180 grain JHP (bullet weight)
1,025 fps (speed of bullet in feet per second)
10.9 grains 2400 (amount of explosive propellant)

Glock 22 @ 2.14 lbs (weight of handgun when loaded)
= 6.2 fpe (force of recoil)
divided by average human weight @ 154 lbs = 0.0402

A Troll with a .50 Alaskan pistol would look like this:

.50 Alaskan (ammo)
450 grain FMJ (bullet weight)
1,905 fps (speed of bullet in feet per second)
67.5 grains IMR 3031 (amount of explosive propellant)
Big Fuckin Troll Gun @ 8 lbs (reasonable guess)
46.4 fpe / 1,083 lbs = 0.0428

So if I haven't made a huge mistake, according to these simple figures, it would just about the same for an average Troll to handle the recoil from a .50 Alaskan pistol (putting out about 3,625 fpe at the muzzle) as it would be for an average human to handle recoil from a .40 S&W (putting out 420 fpe at the muzzle).

And that's just a handgun. A troll could likely handle a .50 BMG rifle a bit better than a human could handle an M-14. Yikes.

--------------------------------------------------

So some useful RL physics there from Raygun, only problem now is game mechanics. What would you use as damage codes, range, etc. And finally just how would concealment work. Think amount it, a troll has massive armpits as well as pockets as big a lady's handbag.

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USEFUL LINKS

http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/index2.html
http://tss.dumpshock.com/html/tss-13/art13-g.htm
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/downloa...ads/recoil.html
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearm...s/navframe.html
http://www.glock.com/g22.htm
http://www.onlineconversion.com/weight_common.htm
http://www.wildwestguns.com/Reloading/50_A...suggestions.htm

Well, because the market is virtually non-existant. Trolls are statistically one of the poorer races, and a Troll gun would be aimed at what, 2% of the population max? This gun would have to cost substantially more than any normal gun because they will sell very, very, very small numbers. That's just not good market sense.

not enough to make up for the cost of production, though.

That and that small percentage is stastically one of the poorest small percentages. They are the poeple that can't afford a premium like that. All for negligable benefits over a gun then can get for 250-300 nuyen.

Must be why the Thunderer never left prototype stage.

"negligible benefits"? I don't think so. The percentage of population that would be targeted seems small, but 1% of world population is not a small number. Even .01% is still a sizable market. And keep in mind that many of the 'buyers' would not be trolls without money. They would be people ARMING trolls without money. If you have never negotiated to aquire hard to get hardware instead of cash for a run, you are limiting yourself.

But I will tell you this. That troll handgun described scares the piss out of me! Must get one!

the world population has not gone down. it just hasn't gone up as much as it otherwise would have. that doesn't, however, change the fact that the number of trolls--or even troll-employers--who would be willing to throw down cash for a troll-only weapon isn't yet high enough to warrant the cost of developing it.

That touches on the basic problem - of the people physically capable of using such a weapon, say trolls, how many of them have the skills or inclination to pick up aforementioned weapon?

I'm sure the design exists and given the rise of complex, automated micro-facs, it wouldn't be impossible for a troll to put his hands on such a weapon. But it would almost certainly be a custom order - the demand would not justify a large factory run and the troll certainly couldn't pick one up in Sprawl Mart.

-Siege

i suppose it'd be interesting to make a troll-modified rifle or shotgun, and allow trolls to use the Pistols skill with it.

Heh - just commission a super-sized troll revolver.

It would be amusing to see a handgun with a minimum Str to use effectively.

-Siege

Step one: buy canon sporting rifle.

Step two: remove stock, magnification, saw barrel down significantly.

Step three: attach pistol grip.

~J

Not really - it's still a human-sized pistol grip and a human-sized trigger.

-Siege

Add "troll-sized" to the last step, then. I didn't specify, but it was the intended implication.

~J

Are you going to saw off the gas system too?

Sporting rifles have much in terms of a gas system?

~J the mostly firearm-illiterate

2% of the customer base is rather large.

I don't know why people continually seem to think it's a small number. Less than 3% of the United States current population is on the Atkin's diet (meaning 97% aren't), yet the food industry is going nuts trying to satisfy their demands.

Plus, considering that trolls are already used to paying a hefty 25% increase in cost for retro-fit accessories (which, according to the logic I've seen in this thread, shouldn't exist either since the "demand wouldn't make it worthwhile"), they can charge a pretty hefty price above what they would normally charge and still make it look cheaper.

When you talk about a troll-only gun, I'm thinking of something like a .50-Cal machine gun with stock and hand-grips added for firing from the shoulder or off the hip. (Not even the biggest human can do that now without risking injury.) Is this what you had in mind? If we wanted to go even more extreme, maybe try it with a recoiless rifle?

If so, then why not just buy an HMG and have a gunsmith modify it? I would think it might be more cost effective in quantities less than a thousand to do that than it would be to set up the factory needed for mass-production...

It is if you're a Troll

~J

Surely just removing the trigger and using a smartlink would suffice... for a troll mod.

Incidently I have a beef about Dwarf mods more than Troll - why do Dwarfs need to mod guns?

Since when did the military care about cost? I'm sure there is at least one military in the world that decided the cost of troll-sizing guns was worth the cost for the benefit of increased firepower they could apply. Likewise, in all the history of desert wars there hasn't been at least one troll? Since these are "showcase" units whatever corp/nation was backing the unit would have happily payed to get their team equiped with the right equipment. Of course once the designs exist, a good decker could steal them and get an automated factory to make a few dozen for his friends.

Assuming all these fail, and their truely are no custom troll mods for weapons, all our troll needs to do is visit one of many large gun clubs... one with a rep for having members who are gunsmiths. Now we have the resulting increably difficult negotiations:

Troll: "Mes want big boom stick! Not weak Ares crap."
GunSmith1: "Shesh your big! You could probably use a freaking huge pistol."
GunSmith2: "Yeah, at least .50 caliber. Accuracy would suck though. Damn your big."
Troll: "Mes want big boom stick!"
GunSmith1: "Damn, I'd love to see just what sort of damange a big boom stick could do."
GunSmith2: "Hmm, we could probably fit a gas recoil system in the hand grip."
GunSmith1: "No way, theres not enough room in a grip for that."
GunSmith2: "Look at the mother... look at the size of those hands."
GunSmith1: "Hmm."
GunSmith2: "Come back in a week. We'll have a couple prototypes for you to test."
Troll: "Mes want big boom stick!"
GunSmith1: "Yes, yes! Big boom stick. Come back, umm... come back next moon. Big boom stick next moon!"
GunSmith2: "Lets call Jake, he'll kill us if we don't get him in on this."

Pel

Okay, let's break it down:
Population of Seattle -> approx 500,000
Percentage of population buying/owning guns: 5% (hey, it's a more paranoid time than now) -> 25,000 (obviously a big market, worth marketing to).

Now, for the troll sub-group:
Population of Seattle -> 500,000
2% of pop. are trolls -> 10,000
Percentage of trolls buying/owning guns: 15% (you've got a lot more to be paranoid about if you're a troll) -> 1,500
Percentage of trolls that want the 'biggest bang-bang possible' (as opposed to simple home-defense): 10% -> 150
Percentage of them that have the money to afford this considerably more expensive gun: 25% -> 38

So, is it worth adding a new gun if there are only 38 people in the city with the ability to handle it, the desire to have it, and enough money to buy it?

Devil's Advocate: The percentages listed are purely speculation, and changing any assumptions about those percentages could very well alter the conclusion. Also, expanding the population to cover all of UCAS bumps the numbers up high enough that it might be a viable market if the gun dealer were allowed to ship the guns to the customer (which would require much looser gun restrictions than we currently have, but might be believable.)

Well, thanks for the feedback so far.

Actually, it's the other way around. Handguns are substantially more difficult to get than long arms, though fully automatic weapons sound mean and make people cry and are therefore hardest to get of all.

Trolls could use sawed-off LAW's
But neat idea about troll with bigger gun, I could use it with my current troll-playing munchkin. I agree that market is not big enough for trolls, and all troll-guns would be customised versions of normal weapons. Most trolls are gangers anyway, and real gangers usually fight with their muscles and errr, their half-brain.

The logic's built around the anticipated use of the weapon. Rifles and shotguns are commonly used for hunting, so they're easiest. Pistols are generally used for self defense, so they're a little harder to come by. Assault rifles are intended for throwing lots of ammo downrange quickly-usually for killing people, so they're just about impossible to get. MGs, explosive ordanance, flamethrowers, etc. are completely for military use, so they're definately impossible.

First of all, I personally agree with the assumption that there wouldn't be a market big enough to design and sell firearms expressly for use by trolls, for several reasons. Number one being that the vast majority of sentient creatures on Earth are much smaller than trolls, and probably find said trolls to be destructive enough as it is. Along with that and taking into account their apparent deminished capacity for abstract thought (statistically speaking), I'm sure there would be plenty of laws in plenty of lands designed to prevent such a thing from occuring (outside of the military) and very harsh punishments for those trolls who do take up arms and go about wreaking havoc upon society. So, in my estimation, the market would be severely hamstrung by law.

Now, it's your game, and you can be as politically correct as you want. But think about turning a corner into an alley full of 10-foot-tall meat walls with HMGs. What would it take to stop them? More than a couple of cops with pistols. A lot more. Will they be armed or arm themselves anyway? Probably. But the punishment would be dire.

In Botch's case, none of this market share discussion matters. He's already assumed that his gang of trolls will have the expertise and the access to the equipment needed to one-off these guns. They're not trying to sell them. They're just building for themselves.

You can find niche markets for just about everything.

For example, what percentage of today's world population buy japanese swords?

You can find scores of web sites that sell them.

Here are two off the top of my head:
Tozando
Bugei

I have a hard time believing that there are more people buying katana today then there would be trolls buying guns in SR, but maybe I'm wrong....

The problem remains: Those people buying those Katanas do have the money to do so ...

The vast majority of SR trolls simply don't have it. At least not in my SR universe. Just as my runners do not have the possibilities to custom develop weapons from scratch (if the weapon design rules take that premise on regular weapons, sure as hell I'll take the same premise for even more advanced custom design) ...

Btw, Dr. Funk 25% amongst those trolls who'd like such weapons, actually have that much money in your SR universe?

Cut away the trigger guard and you still have a human sized trigger.

And if you've ever shot a gun before, you know that it's not enough to be able to position your finger over the trigger. Especially if that trigger is a tiny, tiny thing (and comparing a troll finger to a human one, it would be).

Accuracy would absolutely suck.

Ray - do you want to pull numbers on how many guns SigArms produces in a year and what their projected sales are?

I submit that a specialty company might make troll-sized weaponry, but it still won't be so popular to support a standard run in "Weapon World" or "Sprawl Mart."

People make swords and medieval weapons - do they get enough business to do mail order? Sure. Do they do enough business to sell to a major chain? Oh hell no.

-Siege

im sure it wouldnt be a mass production type of thing. but im sure a group of troll gunsmiths would create atleast pistols "for trolls, by trolls" or something, a fully custom thing, hand made, probably a decent pricetag too

Hence my comment about the potential for a successful mail-order business as New Seattle mentions the competitiveness of micro-facs.

-Siege

Forget about a pistol.. You wanna make it hurt, grab 2 Franchi SPAS 22s with ambidexterity 8... HOORAY FOR BURST FIRE SHOTGUNS!

-ladanis

You can go a little lower for a real(ish) katana (think 950ish), but I wouldn't go lower. Even then, you're not getting anything past the most rudimentary customization and I don't think I'd trust my life to one.

Whilst I was using Raygun's advice about guns to see what is available now on the web I discovered you could buy a .50 BMG rifle with 5-rnd clips in kit form for just a few thousand dollars. Now I don't know much market share that particular gun has but there several companies producing them.

Now think Troll.

Your probably underpaid compared to your collegues or SINless. Life is harsh, at best its a daily struggle as your outgoings are 25% higher than everyone else. Moving around is difficult, doors are too small, taxis by prior arrangement only, limited seating everywhere, the embarassment of having to "knuckle" like a gorilla in many rooms, buses, and trains. Cinema, hah, forget it.

Everybody else hates you to some extent, though most are too imtimidated by your size to start anything. And, insert expletive of choice, why does everybody have to think that you could be outwitted by a dungbettle. Of course, you sometimes useful to look stupid.

Ghettoes. Quarters and estates. Poorer housing.

Surrounded on all sides by awakened critters, gangers, burgulars, undead, ghouls, plain out and out freaks.

Defense, well generally, if you hit something it stays hit. In a dark alley you're damn scary. One problem, these days, there's always someone bigger and besides who's most likely to mug a troll? A troll. Big target, hard to stop, need a big gun. Besides, sometimes you just don't want to be that close to the target.

The way things are money is probably tight. If you're going to by one gun what would it be.

Now, a big gun is dangerous, deadly in the wrong hands. To keep it around the home it needs a gun lock or at least a way to disable it. If you're not concerned about the kids, almost no intruder will be able to fire it when unlocked, anyway.

Need a weapon to carry as a sidearm, in a holster or under clothing. Need a gun that can be quickly removed from concealment. Pistol shape is good, more ammo capacity than a revolver.

Sometimes the policy is to jam it into someone's face, fill the air with flying lead or up close and personal with an 8lb pistol whip.

Why would someone buy a BFTG?

Simple and efficient design.
Less complex recoil systems, more reliability
Extended clip capacity as standard
More stopping power than shotgun, smaller than a sniper rifle.
Need barrel mounting points? It is a very big gun.

and ...

The right size, straight out of the box, no hidden surcharges.
On a scale suitable for maintenance by bigger fingers.
Designed, built and customised by trolls for trolls.
Something that only trolls can use easily, everybody else needs the mods this time around. About bloody time!
5% of all proceeds go to troll orientated charities.

and ...

Who makes the most powerful production handgun in the world? Is it a magnum, or a casgull, no its a BFTG (By a Fomori, Troll, and Giant). So what if you can't fire it without gyromount support, you can OWN it. The most powerful handgun in the world, YOURS. Limited editions available.

What are you going to get?

BFTG - Con=?, Weight=8lbs,Type=TrollPistol,Range=SMG,DAM=14S,SA,Clip=30
Current street availability nil
Current price = Bidding starts now for pre-release limited edition purchase!

Catalogue to follow.

Limited editions include:

3-round burst fire option, with extended 45-rnd clip
Sound suppression with optional .500 subsonic rifle rounds (+2 recoil comp)

Ah yes, the sporting application of the .50 round.

Very useful, if you're hunting Volkswagons.

-Siege

hehe

ever notice how its just as easy for a dwarf to conceal a pistol as it is for a troll to conceal a pistol?

I'd be inclined to kick Power down to 12 myself, as even a TrollPistol doing as much damage as a 4+ foot sniper rifle doesn't sit right with me.

Unless someone'd like to pipe in and tell me that I'm wrong, all the explosive will fully detonate before the round leaves the barrel.

~J

For those of you who are convinced that there would not be enough market for a troll only gun, think laterally.

Big trolls carry miniguns, humans used turrets to fire miniguns.
Microturrets are small, can only take shorter guns.
Drones can be small.