 How many continuous rounds until barrel dammage?, A question for Those Who Know Guns |
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 Aug 4 2004, 06:59 PM
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#1
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Ain Soph Aur  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600  |
How many rounds can a standard SMG or Assault Rifle fire in continuous full-auto before the barrel starts to overheat and cause problems? What kind of problems would those be? What can be done to prevent overheating? I'm mainly asking because our Rigger has a tendency to have his 1000 round equipped drones fire on full auto continuously.
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Aug 4 2004, 07:04 PM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it varies from weapon to weapon. the barrel of an M249 (essentially an LMG in SR terms) is supposed to be changed after expending every 200-round drum; gunners carry 2 barrels. you could probably put 800-1000 rounds through it before you start running into problems. the M2 (HMG), on the other hand, doesn't require a barrel change often enough to be issued with an extra.
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Aug 4 2004, 07:08 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
Keep in mind the low rate of fire that FA in SR represents...
Assault rifles can get too hot to hold after 100 rounds, actual functioning problems can start as early as that, but usually it'll last a bit longer. As the other thread said though, SR's guns aren't realistic, so don't worry about it. |
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Aug 4 2004, 07:16 PM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
haha, that's true. it'd take me all of 20 seconds to empty a 200-round M249 drum in real life; in SR, i'd be sitting there for an entire minute. even if i were using an amazingly-superfast HVAR, i'd be ten seconds slower than my M249 was in real life.
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Aug 4 2004, 07:20 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I'd hazard that the chance of causing barrel damage grows exponentially w/o sufficient time to cool the barrel or perform proper maintenance. I'd also guess that heavier weapons would be better suited for continuous fire vs. smaller arms.
Not sure if it's causing some game balance issues, or you just don't the fact he's doing that. I dunno if some rule would be the best solution IMO, maybe something that blows-up drones (Rockets and such) or have him face down drones like he has or something similar that he might encounter. Someone hijacks his drone and turns it on him? :vegm: |
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Aug 4 2004, 07:24 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Depends on a lot of things:
Is it firing from the open (FN-FAL style) or the close (H&K G3 style) bolt? Does it use real ammo or caseless? Heavy or normal barrel? Generally weapons with the former option shoot "colder" and / or have less problems with ammo cockoffs[1]. The style of the barrel (classical grooves vs. polygonal) add further variables. From the IRL MG36 and the G8 you can assume that 100 (Assault rifle caliber) or 50 (Battle rifle/SR hunting rifle caliber) can be fired from a rifle (as opposed to a Maschine gun like M249 / M2) without problems since those magazines exist. But these weapons have "heavy barrel" and "cased ammo". 1000 rounds of sustained fire through an SMG or Assault rifle are impossible, those weapons are not build for that. They are single shot/short burst weapons. Heck, 1000 rounds sustained fire through most GPMG will cause them problems (According to a WWII vet the MG42 needed a barrel change after 300-500 rounds without a break or you ruin the barrel. And she's about as rugged as a GPMG gets) Drones can't change barrels... If you want longer firing, you cooling. Classical way to do this is a water-filled barrel like the gun they use defending the airport in "Wild Geese" (the Burton/Moore/Krüeger.. merc movie), IIRC a Vickers gun. Actually a bit tricky to add and quite heavy (the .303 Vickers [GPMG caliber]) uses some 30+ liters of water IIRC. Airborne drones might get some cooling from the wind. If they move fast enough. Common problems are runaway guns (They just keep firing - seen that with an M60, done deliberately) and in the worst case ammo cookoff. Birdy [1] One of the main problems of the M60 is, that the ammo is in the chamber before you pull the trigger instead of (MG3-style) being fed there when you pull the trigger IIRC |
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Aug 4 2004, 07:38 PM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
[edit] Ignore this post...I'm looking the rofs up on the web, and they're nothing like what I had remembered.
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Aug 4 2004, 07:45 PM
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#8
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
The Vickers' barrel is not water filled. In fact, no barrel is water filled unless you decide to shove the gun under water. Water cooling involves jaketing the barrel with a water filled drum that absorbs heat and boils off as the gun gets hot. In the case of the Vickers, there's a tube that connects to the front top of the jacket to allow steam to escape and recondense in a can.
As for weapon overheating, it's the gas system that usually craps out first, not the barrel. In a weapon that is configured for sustained fire with a heavy, high quality barrel and a tuned, strong gas system, you can keep firing for quite some time. Google up the last Blackwater shootout and check out the M60 that got shown off there. |
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Aug 4 2004, 08:16 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
I know, I over-simplified :S . Hey, I was talking military technologie (should be done in german) not overcomplex food (french) payment in a tavern (english) or jealous love (Spanish) :D Besides, not every weapon has a gas system. Actually the UZI, Ingram, MP-5, quite a few of the MG (MG3, M2HB, Maxim) don't have them. They use what you feel when that slimy elf crawls towards your foxhole - Recoil! Another thing - you might try a folded/winged "shrout" around the barrel, similar to a processor heat-sink. Didn't the Lewis use something like that? Birdy |
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Aug 4 2004, 08:23 PM
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#10
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
That's pretty much a Fluted Barrel, it increases heat diustribution by increasing the barrel surface area.
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Aug 4 2004, 08:23 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
If I remember correctly, I think that's called a a baffled muzzle break.
Baffles are intended to reduce recoil. the geometry of the holes at the end of the gun catch the rush of expanding gases as they rush out of the barrel, and it helps to pull the barrel forward. It's not really that effective, and isn't used much on most modern cannons. |
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Aug 4 2004, 08:29 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
I saw DPMS is doing a set of M4 handguards with internal fins as heat sinks, dunno whether they'll actually work or not. The gas system is one of the big things too, but at some point the barrel gets hot enough to warp. |
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Aug 4 2004, 08:58 PM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Apathy, Bitbasher was right. Barrel fluting is basically turning the exterior of the barrel into a heatsink, which you can see on old, 1928 style Thompsons. Ugly as hell, but that's another matter.
And, no, not every weapon has a gas system, but that doesn't mean sawing off the barrel is a good idea. Certainly not on an M2HB or MP5. For a semiautomatic hunting rifle, there will be a gas system. |
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Aug 4 2004, 10:01 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Too hot to hold if you have a habit of holding them by the barrel. ;) Or if you have a gun with a really crappy design for the fore end. My personal experience is that firing 300 rounds straight (as fast as you can with mag changes) from an AR should not significantly detract from the weapon's reliability. It certainly can detract from accuracy, especially in the long run, as well as some other minor problems, if you keep doing that often. With a LMG without a barrel change, I expect a gun to handle at least 600. But then I expect it to not to detract from reliability of an AR to dump sand inside. Barrel damage shouldn't just appear suddenly, however. It should accumulate over time when you constantly overheat the barrel, slowly degrading accuracy. Also, firearms of the 2060s should be manufactured from materials that better withstand heat and friction than current weapons. A 2x modifer to how much abuse they can handle before crapping out isn't unrealistic. So if the rigger often fires 1000 rounds from a MG straight, tell him it's a bad idea unless he wants to change barrels often. If he keeps doing it, add a +1 TN to the weapon every now and then, when the rifling of the barrel no longer provides sufficient stabilization. |
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Aug 4 2004, 10:56 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
The M4 handguards are better shielded from the heat, but trap it. I've got a SIR on mine and it'll get warm after a Beta C mag dumped. An AK will be too hot to hold after a few mags. The G3 I had would get too hot to hold after 60 rounds of not very fast shooting. Heat radiates, and the handguards surround where it radiates from, so they will get hot. |
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Aug 4 2004, 11:05 PM
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#16
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Hey! does your SIR float the barrel, and if so is it sturdy enough that if you mounted a tripod or such from the bottom picatinny rail mount it still has clearance?
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Aug 4 2004, 11:07 PM
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#17
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I believe Austere trained with an Rk, which is not so very far removed from any AK variant.
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Aug 4 2004, 11:26 PM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
RK-62 (I don't care what World.Guns.Ru calls it, the Finnish DF calls it an RK-62, even if it has a stamped steel receiver). It certainly wasn't too hot to hold after 100 rounds. I never did hold one that'd been fired more than that without leather gloves, but I certainly didn't notice any sizzling...
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Aug 5 2004, 12:07 AM
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#19
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
That's the one. Couldn't remember if it was an RK-62 or 95.
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Aug 5 2004, 12:22 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 27-January 04 Member No.: 6,025 |
Turning the subject back a little.
Backgammon, if you don't have any game balance issues then I suggest using the rules for drone and vehicle upkeep in R3. They should cover replacement barrels as needed. If it is a game balance issue then you'll have to house rule it. |
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Aug 5 2004, 12:55 AM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
All SIRs free float the barrel. The rails in Selective Integrated Rail are removable, but I have a slide on Bi-pod. It has no contact with the barrel at all. Different length rails are available, but I'm not a big FPG fan, so a bipod or flashlight is more than enough. IIRC, there's some question of if you beat the SIR against something, it may warp, but it won't bend from any weight I can put on it, so clearance never decreases. |
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Aug 5 2004, 01:00 AM
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#22
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
I'm sure the Valmet's had a better foreend than the AK's I've shot. I've seen some of the american handguards MELT at 80 rounds, but most last longer... I shot an AK type with wood handguard that the wood started sweating after about 120ish rounds. There's usually a little more time left to it if you hold it by the mag, but the metal reciever transmits heat pretty quickly. I played with a Valmet, but never shot one. I've got an StG58 clone and Colt M4 right now. (SA only ofc) The StG I've not rapid fired, since the current ranges are strict. |
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Aug 5 2004, 01:42 AM
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#23
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
to go a bit offtopic here, im starting to get a bit worried about what kinds of arsenals some of you people have stashed. what are you people prepearing for? the comming of the 6th world?
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Aug 5 2004, 01:56 AM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 3-August 04 Member No.: 6,535 |
Once in my old military days I was ordered to support a squadron of Leopard I tanks with flare rounds from my Carl Gustaf recoilless cannon. Shortly after doing that, I was witness to the longest burst I´ve ever seen from an MG3. It was a 700 round burst with all tracer ammo (handloaded in the ammo belt as usually its one in five). Remember this was at night, so it looked awesome. IIRC recommended barrelchange on the MG3 is after 150 rounds. Edit: Hmm first post :) |
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Aug 5 2004, 02:06 AM
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#25
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Ahhh, that answered my question. I have never seen a SIR up close, and I cant find a gunstore locally that stocks one so I couldn't see it firsthand. I wanted to add one as an option to the Bushmaster a3 .308 I'm buying at the end of the year, and I assumed it would be a suitable for a bipod so the bipod didnt have to clamp to the barrel, but I wanted to be sure. Thanks. and to respond to:
I don't have an arsenal, I only own 2 guns personally, an H&K USP40 and a USP40 compact. As I mentioned above I'm buying a rifle later this year, and I'll deck it out for decent long range shooting.
I live in Nevada. I was raised around guns. I started shooting at a very young age. I was raised to believe a man owned a gun, and used that gun to defend what's his. My dad told me buying a handgun was a strict requirement if I owned a house. Shooting is also fun, it's relaxing and target shooting has a certain zen like quality to it in my opinion. There's nothing particularly ominous or wrong with owning a gun, it's just a tool. When you were raised around them it's just normal. Also, many folks here have military backgrounds. Just out of curiousity Hobgoblin, where are you from that this is abnormal? |
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