Full Version: How many continuous rounds until barrel dammage?
How many rounds can a standard SMG or Assault Rifle fire in continuous full-auto before the barrel starts to overheat and cause problems? What kind of problems would those be? What can be done to prevent overheating? I'm mainly asking because our Rigger has a tendency to have his 1000 round equipped drones fire on full auto continuously.
it varies from weapon to weapon. the barrel of an M249 (essentially an LMG in SR terms) is supposed to be changed after expending every 200-round drum; gunners carry 2 barrels. you could probably put 800-1000 rounds through it before you start running into problems. the M2 (HMG), on the other hand, doesn't require a barrel change often enough to be issued with an extra.
Keep in mind the low rate of fire that FA in SR represents...
Assault rifles can get too hot to hold after 100 rounds, actual functioning problems can start as early as that, but usually it'll last a bit longer.
As the other thread said though, SR's guns aren't realistic, so don't worry about it.
Assault rifles can get too hot to hold after 100 rounds, actual functioning problems can start as early as that, but usually it'll last a bit longer.
As the other thread said though, SR's guns aren't realistic, so don't worry about it.
haha, that's true. it'd take me all of 20 seconds to empty a 200-round M249 drum in real life; in SR, i'd be sitting there for an entire minute. even if i were using an amazingly-superfast HVAR, i'd be ten seconds slower than my M249 was in real life.
I'd hazard that the chance of causing barrel damage grows exponentially w/o sufficient time to cool the barrel or perform proper maintenance. I'd also guess that heavier weapons would be better suited for continuous fire vs. smaller arms.
Not sure if it's causing some game balance issues, or you just don't the fact he's doing that. I dunno if some rule would be the best solution IMO, maybe something that blows-up drones (Rockets and such) or have him face down drones like he has or something similar that he might encounter. Someone hijacks his drone and turns it on him?
Not sure if it's causing some game balance issues, or you just don't the fact he's doing that. I dunno if some rule would be the best solution IMO, maybe something that blows-up drones (Rockets and such) or have him face down drones like he has or something similar that he might encounter. Someone hijacks his drone and turns it on him?
Depends on a lot of things:
Is it firing from the open (FN-FAL style) or the close (H&K G3 style) bolt?
Does it use real ammo or caseless?
Heavy or normal barrel?
Generally weapons with the former option shoot "colder" and / or have less problems with ammo cockoffs[1]. The style of the barrel (classical grooves vs. polygonal) add further variables. From the IRL MG36 and the G8 you can assume that 100 (Assault rifle caliber) or 50 (Battle rifle/SR hunting rifle caliber) can be fired from a rifle (as opposed to a Maschine gun like M249 / M2) without problems since those magazines exist. But these weapons have "heavy barrel" and "cased ammo".
1000 rounds of sustained fire through an SMG or Assault rifle are impossible, those weapons are not build for that. They are single shot/short burst weapons. Heck, 1000 rounds sustained fire through most GPMG will cause them problems (According to a WWII vet the MG42 needed a barrel change after 300-500 rounds without a break or you ruin the barrel. And she's about as rugged as a GPMG gets) Drones can't change barrels...
If you want longer firing, you cooling. Classical way to do this is a water-filled barrel like the gun they use defending the airport in "Wild Geese" (the Burton/Moore/Krüeger.. merc movie), IIRC a Vickers gun. Actually a bit tricky to add and quite heavy (the .303 Vickers [GPMG caliber]) uses some 30+ liters of water IIRC.
Airborne drones might get some cooling from the wind. If they move fast enough.
Common problems are runaway guns (They just keep firing - seen that with an M60, done deliberately) and in the worst case ammo cookoff.
Birdy
[1] One of the main problems of the M60 is, that the ammo is in the chamber before you pull the trigger instead of (MG3-style) being fed there when you pull the trigger IIRC
Is it firing from the open (FN-FAL style) or the close (H&K G3 style) bolt?
Does it use real ammo or caseless?
Heavy or normal barrel?
Generally weapons with the former option shoot "colder" and / or have less problems with ammo cockoffs[1]. The style of the barrel (classical grooves vs. polygonal) add further variables. From the IRL MG36 and the G8 you can assume that 100 (Assault rifle caliber) or 50 (Battle rifle/SR hunting rifle caliber) can be fired from a rifle (as opposed to a Maschine gun like M249 / M2) without problems since those magazines exist. But these weapons have "heavy barrel" and "cased ammo".
1000 rounds of sustained fire through an SMG or Assault rifle are impossible, those weapons are not build for that. They are single shot/short burst weapons. Heck, 1000 rounds sustained fire through most GPMG will cause them problems (According to a WWII vet the MG42 needed a barrel change after 300-500 rounds without a break or you ruin the barrel. And she's about as rugged as a GPMG gets) Drones can't change barrels...
If you want longer firing, you cooling. Classical way to do this is a water-filled barrel like the gun they use defending the airport in "Wild Geese" (the Burton/Moore/Krüeger.. merc movie), IIRC a Vickers gun. Actually a bit tricky to add and quite heavy (the .303 Vickers [GPMG caliber]) uses some 30+ liters of water IIRC.
Airborne drones might get some cooling from the wind. If they move fast enough.
Common problems are runaway guns (They just keep firing - seen that with an M60, done deliberately) and in the worst case ammo cookoff.
Birdy
[1] One of the main problems of the M60 is, that the ammo is in the chamber before you pull the trigger instead of (MG3-style) being fed there when you pull the trigger IIRC
[edit] Ignore this post...I'm looking the rofs up on the web, and they're nothing like what I had remembered.
The Vickers' barrel is not water filled. In fact, no barrel is water filled unless you decide to shove the gun under water. Water cooling involves jaketing the barrel with a water filled drum that absorbs heat and boils off as the gun gets hot. In the case of the Vickers, there's a tube that connects to the front top of the jacket to allow steam to escape and recondense in a can.
As for weapon overheating, it's the gas system that usually craps out first, not the barrel. In a weapon that is configured for sustained fire with a heavy, high quality barrel and a tuned, strong gas system, you can keep firing for quite some time. Google up the last Blackwater shootout and check out the M60 that got shown off there.
As for weapon overheating, it's the gas system that usually craps out first, not the barrel. In a weapon that is configured for sustained fire with a heavy, high quality barrel and a tuned, strong gas system, you can keep firing for quite some time. Google up the last Blackwater shootout and check out the M60 that got shown off there.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| The Vickers' barrel is not water filled. In fact, no barrel is water filled unless you decide to shove the gun under water. Water cooling involves jaketing the barrel with a water filled drum that absorbs heat and boils off as the gun gets hot. In the case of the Vickers, there's a tube that connects to the front top of the jacket to allow steam to escape and recondense in a can. As for weapon overheating, it's the gas system that usually craps out first, not the barrel. In a weapon that is configured for sustained fire with a heavy, high quality barrel and a tuned, strong gas system, you can keep firing for quite some time. Google up the last Blackwater shootout and check out the M60 that got shown off there. |
I know, I over-simplified
. Hey, I was talking military technologie (should be done in german) not overcomplex food (french) payment in a tavern (english) or jealous love (Spanish) 
Besides, not every weapon has a gas system. Actually the UZI, Ingram, MP-5, quite a few of the MG (MG3, M2HB, Maxim) don't have them. They use what you feel when that slimy elf crawls towards your foxhole - Recoil!
Another thing - you might try a folded/winged "shrout" around the barrel, similar to a processor heat-sink. Didn't the Lewis use something like that?
Birdy
That's pretty much a Fluted Barrel, it increases heat diustribution by increasing the barrel surface area.
| QUOTE |
| folded/winged "shrout" around the barrel, similar to a processor heat-sink. |
If I remember correctly, I think that's called a a baffled muzzle break.
| QUOTE |
| That's pretty much a Fluted Barrel, it increases heat diustribution by increasing the barrel surface area. |
Baffles are intended to reduce recoil. the geometry of the holes at the end of the gun catch the rush of expanding gases as they rush out of the barrel, and it helps to pull the barrel forward. It's not really that effective, and isn't used much on most modern cannons.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| That's pretty much a Fluted Barrel, it increases heat diustribution by increasing the barrel surface area. |
I saw DPMS is doing a set of M4 handguards with internal fins as heat sinks, dunno whether they'll actually work or not.
The gas system is one of the big things too, but at some point the barrel gets hot enough to warp.
Apathy, Bitbasher was right. Barrel fluting is basically turning the exterior of the barrel into a heatsink, which you can see on old, 1928 style Thompsons. Ugly as hell, but that's another matter.
And, no, not every weapon has a gas system, but that doesn't mean sawing off the barrel is a good idea. Certainly not on an M2HB or MP5. For a semiautomatic hunting rifle, there will be a gas system.
And, no, not every weapon has a gas system, but that doesn't mean sawing off the barrel is a good idea. Certainly not on an M2HB or MP5. For a semiautomatic hunting rifle, there will be a gas system.
| QUOTE (VoceNoctum) |
| Assault rifles can get too hot to hold after 100 rounds |
Too hot to hold if you have a habit of holding them by the barrel.
Or if you have a gun with a really crappy design for the fore end.My personal experience is that firing 300 rounds straight (as fast as you can with mag changes) from an AR should not significantly detract from the weapon's reliability. It certainly can detract from accuracy, especially in the long run, as well as some other minor problems, if you keep doing that often. With a LMG without a barrel change, I expect a gun to handle at least 600.
But then I expect it to not to detract from reliability of an AR to dump sand inside.
Barrel damage shouldn't just appear suddenly, however. It should accumulate over time when you constantly overheat the barrel, slowly degrading accuracy. Also, firearms of the 2060s should be manufactured from materials that better withstand heat and friction than current weapons. A 2x modifer to how much abuse they can handle before crapping out isn't unrealistic. So if the rigger often fires 1000 rounds from a MG straight, tell him it's a bad idea unless he wants to change barrels often. If he keeps doing it, add a +1 TN to the weapon every now and then, when the rifling of the barrel no longer provides sufficient stabilization.
| QUOTE |
| Too hot to hold if you have a habit of holding them by the barrel. Or if you have a gun with a really crappy design for the fore end. My personal experience is that firing 300 rounds straight (as fast as you can with mag changes) from an AR should not significantly detract from the weapon's reliability. |
The M4 handguards are better shielded from the heat, but trap it. I've got a SIR on mine and it'll get warm after a Beta C mag dumped. An AK will be too hot to hold after a few mags. The G3 I had would get too hot to hold after 60 rounds of not very fast shooting.
Heat radiates, and the handguards surround where it radiates from, so they will get hot.
Hey! does your SIR float the barrel, and if so is it sturdy enough that if you mounted a tripod or such from the bottom picatinny rail mount it still has clearance?
I believe Austere trained with an Rk, which is not so very far removed from any AK variant.
RK-62 (I don't care what World.Guns.Ru calls it, the Finnish DF calls it an RK-62, even if it has a stamped steel receiver). It certainly wasn't too hot to hold after 100 rounds. I never did hold one that'd been fired more than that without leather gloves, but I certainly didn't notice any sizzling...
That's the one. Couldn't remember if it was an RK-62 or 95.
Turning the subject back a little.
Backgammon, if you don't have any game balance issues then I suggest using the rules for drone and vehicle upkeep in R3. They should cover replacement barrels as needed. If it is a game balance issue then you'll have to house rule it.
Backgammon, if you don't have any game balance issues then I suggest using the rules for drone and vehicle upkeep in R3. They should cover replacement barrels as needed. If it is a game balance issue then you'll have to house rule it.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Hey! does your SIR float the barrel, and if so is it sturdy enough that if you mounted a tripod or such from the bottom picatinny rail mount it still has clearance? |
All SIRs free float the barrel. The rails in Selective Integrated Rail are removable, but I have a slide on Bi-pod. It has no contact with the barrel at all. Different length rails are available, but I'm not a big FPG fan, so a bipod or flashlight is more than enough.
IIRC, there's some question of if you beat the SIR against something, it may warp, but it won't bend from any weight I can put on it, so clearance never decreases.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| RK-62 (I don't care what World.Guns.Ru calls it, the Finnish DF calls it an RK-62, even if it has a stamped steel receiver). It certainly wasn't too hot to hold after 100 rounds. I never did hold one that'd been fired more than that without leather gloves, but I certainly didn't notice any sizzling... |
I'm sure the Valmet's had a better foreend than the AK's I've shot. I've seen some of the american handguards MELT at 80 rounds, but most last longer...
I shot an AK type with wood handguard that the wood started sweating after about 120ish rounds. There's usually a little more time left to it if you hold it by the mag, but the metal reciever transmits heat pretty quickly.
I played with a Valmet, but never shot one. I've got an StG58 clone and Colt M4 right now. (SA only ofc) The StG I've not rapid fired, since the current ranges are strict.
to go a bit offtopic here, im starting to get a bit worried about what kinds of arsenals some of you people have stashed. what are you people prepearing for? the comming of the 6th world?
| QUOTE (Birdy @ Aug 4 2004, 02:24 PM) |
| Heck, 1000 rounds sustained fire through most GPMG will cause them problems (According to a WWII vet the MG42 needed a barrel change after 300-500 rounds without a break or you ruin the barrel. And she's about as rugged as a GPMG gets) Drones can't change barrels... |
Once in my old military days I was ordered to support a squadron of Leopard I tanks with flare rounds from my Carl Gustaf recoilless cannon. Shortly after doing that, I was witness to the longest burst I´ve ever seen from an MG3. It was a 700 round burst with all tracer ammo (handloaded in the ammo belt as usually its one in five). Remember this was at night, so it looked awesome.
IIRC recommended barrelchange on the MG3 is after 150 rounds.
Edit: Hmm first post
| QUOTE (VoceNoctum @ Aug 5 2004, 12:55 AM) | ||
All SIRs free float the barrel. The rails in Selective Integrated Rail are removable, but I have a slide on Bi-pod. It has no contact with the barrel at all. Different length rails are available, but I'm not a big FPG fan, so a bipod or flashlight is more than enough. IIRC, there's some question of if you beat the SIR against something, it may warp, but it won't bend from any weight I can put on it, so clearance never decreases. |
Ahhh, that answered my question. I have never seen a SIR up close, and I cant find a gunstore locally that stocks one so I couldn't see it firsthand. I wanted to add one as an option to the Bushmaster a3 .308 I'm buying at the end of the year, and I assumed it would be a suitable for a bipod so the bipod didnt have to clamp to the barrel, but I wanted to be sure. Thanks.
and to respond to:
| QUOTE (Hobgoblin) |
| to go a bit offtopic here, im starting to get a bit worried about what kinds of arsenals some of you people have stashed. what are you people prepearing for? the comming of the 6th world? |
I don't have an arsenal, I only own 2 guns personally, an H&K USP40 and a USP40 compact. As I mentioned above I'm buying a rifle later this year, and I'll deck it out for decent long range shooting.
I live in Nevada. I was raised around guns. I started shooting at a very young age. I was raised to believe a man owned a gun, and used that gun to defend what's his. My dad told me buying a handgun was a strict requirement if I owned a house. Shooting is also fun, it's relaxing and target shooting has a certain zen like quality to it in my opinion. There's nothing particularly ominous or wrong with owning a gun, it's just a tool. When you were raised around them it's just normal.
Also, many folks here have military backgrounds.
Just out of curiousity Hobgoblin, where are you from that this is abnormal?
I live in Nevada. I was raised around guns. I started shooting at a very young age. I was raised to believe a man owned a gun, and used that gun to defend what's his. My dad told me buying a handgun was a strict requirement if I owned a house. Shooting is also fun, it's relaxing and target shooting has a certain zen like quality to it in my opinion. There's nothing particularly ominous or wrong with owning a gun, it's just a tool. When you were raised around them it's just normal.
Also, many folks here have military backgrounds.
Just out of curiousity Hobgoblin, where are you from that this is abnormal?
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| to go a bit offtopic here, im starting to get a bit worried about what kinds of arsenals some of you people have stashed. what are you people prepearing for? the comming of the 6th world? |
If you've never been shooting at a range, it wouldn't make sense. Variety is the spice of life.
Bit> make sure it fits the Bushmaster before ordering, I'm not sure it does, pretty sure it doesn't actually. They were talking of one for the AR10 (Armalite) but I don't know that they've even done that one yet.
Already Got that covered if I'm correct. I need to verify but according to Bushmaster apparently their AR-10 a3 (and their whole AR-10 family) is specifically made to accept the majority of the M16/AR15 accessories. As an added bonus the rifle accepts both metric and imperial FN-FAL mags by design instead of Armalite mags. AFAIK they can accept This SIR system, Or for 200 bucks less This Four Rail Floated handguard with This Bipod Adapter which connects to This Bipod.
Assuming, of course I checked it all out right. I'll verify everything before I order it. Or, I may just be on crack.
Assuming, of course I checked it all out right. I'll verify everything before I order it. Or, I may just be on crack.
| QUOTE (Bossemanden) |
| It was a 700 round burst with all tracer ammo [...] IIRC recommended barrelchange on the MG3 is after 150 rounds. |
It's stuff like this exactly that makes me think most MGs won't have real trouble with firing some pretty insane amounts of rounds cyclically, in the short run. It's just that the barrel will slowly degrade over time when you keep doing it.
| QUOTE |
| it looked awesome. |
I bet it did...
| QUOTE (Bossemanden) | ||
Once in my old military days I was ordered to support a squadron of Leopard I tanks with flare rounds from my Carl Gustaf recoilless cannon. Shortly after doing that, I was witness to the longest burst I´ve ever seen from an MG3. It was a 700 round burst with all tracer ammo (handloaded in the ammo belt as usually its one in five). Remember this was at night, so it looked awesome. IIRC recommended barrelchange on the MG3 is after 150 rounds. Edit: Hmm first post |
CoAx (using the hull as an additional heat-sink) or the commanders pintle-mounted AA gun (Not that it'll hit anything airborne unless it hovers right in front of it - and than it's likely a Hind)
Add in that there is a chromed polygonal barrel (and even the german BW has them
) that withstands heat better than the old models.Btw: Welcome and: What BW unit did you serve in
Birdy (who was 531 Jägers)
The crazy burst was fired from the CoAx mount.
I was Panzergrenadier in 4./II/Jyske Dragon Regiment
Site in Danish:
http://www.milhist.dk/enheder/jyske_dragonregiment.htm
I was Panzergrenadier in 4./II/Jyske Dragon Regiment
Site in Danish:
http://www.milhist.dk/enheder/jyske_dragonregiment.htm
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| to go a bit offtopic here, im starting to get a bit worried about what kinds of arsenals some of you people have stashed. what are you people prepearing for? the comming of the 6th world? |
Naaa, red flood coming over the hill. The creepy commies out to conquer the free world and take away the virtues of beer, babes and 30 days of paid hollydays
Military experience (Staff means you meet a lot foreign people. A former Munster officer means you get to shoot strange stuff) and some privat shooting (AirGun, Small caliber [olympic/KK]
Currently starting KK shooting again, will apply for a "combat" (Large caliber) handgun around christmas next year, getting myself a 9mm Para as a present.
Birdy
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| [QUOTE=VoceNoctum,Aug 5 2004, 12:55 AM] [QUOTE=Hobgoblin]to go a bit offtopic here, im starting to get a bit worried about what kinds of arsenals some of you people have stashed. what are you people prepearing for? the comming of the 6th world? [/QUOTE] I don't have an arsenal, I only own 2 guns personally, an H&K USP40 and a USP40 compact. As I mentioned above I'm buying a rifle later this year, and I'll deck it out for decent long range shooting. I live in Nevada. I was raised around guns. I started shooting at a very young age. I was raised to believe a man owned a gun, and used that gun to defend what's his. My dad told me buying a handgun was a strict requirement if I owned a house. Shooting is also fun, it's relaxing and target shooting has a certain zen like quality to it in my opinion. There's nothing particularly ominous or wrong with owning a gun, it's just a tool. When you were raised around them it's just normal. Also, many folks here have military backgrounds. Just out of curiousity Hobgoblin, where are you from that this is abnormal? |
norway, where handguns are most likely only seen in the hands of police or some hard criminal elements and where hunting rifles of the non semi-auto is the norm for all other cases. allso, im aware of the posibility of military background but someone did make a statement that sounded like he personaly owned a machinegun
i have stated my view on guns here before, and im not about to repeat myself. i will only say that the thought that one needs a handgun for selfdefence or defence of ones home to me sounds like a accident waiting to happen at best...
Statistically a handgun is used 4 times for defense for every one time a handgun is used in the comission of a crime. Despite what the media would have you believe handgun accidents are extremely rare compared to sucessful defensive uses of handguns.
And people's attitudes about these things vary dramatically by their upbringing.
Also, if you have a collector's license you can own a machinegun here.
And people's attitudes about these things vary dramatically by their upbringing.
Also, if you have a collector's license you can own a machinegun here.
hobgoblin and I live in countries where you don't need handguns for self defense. Around here, you really need to have a weird childhood to think you do. I realize things might be different in the US. More importantly, I feel this topic does not deserve more than 3 consecutive messages on this board.
Just as a note, I dont feel that I need a handgun for self defense. No one but the police really does. I do enjoy shooting though, and hence the reason I own one. The odds I'll ever need a handgun for defense is remarkably low.
and i can understand the interest of target shooting. but how are the guns stored after use? allso, a collectors gun isnt a fully workable gun yes? if not then i would say your legal system is a bit insane in my view...
but aside from that lets not debate this mutch further as neither side will most likely change and we in effect live in diffrent worlds
but aside from that lets not debate this mutch further as neither side will most likely change and we in effect live in diffrent worlds
Collectors' weapons do function (if they don't, anyone at any age can own one). There was a bill passed some time ago legalizing the ownership of weapons manufactured a certain amount of time ago that, in effect, made it fine for people to buy fully functioning WW2 weapons, considering that rashes of street violence with M1A1 Thompsons and M1918 BARs were not exactly common.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| lets not debate this |
...at all. Absolutely no point whatsoever. And if you want to let off steam, do it somewhere else.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Aug 7 2004, 07:15 PM) |
| hobgoblin and I live in countries where you don't need handguns for self defense. Around here, you really need to have a weird childhood to think you do. I realize things might be different in the US. More importantly, I feel this topic does not deserve more than 3 consecutive messages on this board. |
True, it doesn't really merit a dicussion since your opinions are pretty much set in stone, but then... you're (well, hobgoblin and...) the one that raised the topic.
If you had a collectable firearm, reducing it to non-functionality renders the value nil, just like if you took an antique sword and pounded the blade until it was no longer sharp.
I'm happy there's no crime in your country. Guns, like knives, don't somehow act on their own. And, for the record, a hunting rifle is orders of magnitudes more efficient than a handgun...
But, no numbers will change your mind, it's just different cultures. You've mentioned having the discussion on the boards before, so perhaps if you don't want a repeat of them, try to avoid commenting in gun threads.
The FN MAG is recommended that you change the barrels after 250rds of continous firing. But realistically, who the hell fires a 250 round burst? (Not to mention the crazy 100+ points of recoil compensation needed to shoot at something accurately)
In actual fact, you could fire until the barrel glows red, but then you had better stop and let it cool down naturally(no dunking in water, please)
In actual fact, you could fire until the barrel glows red, but then you had better stop and let it cool down naturally(no dunking in water, please)
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| The FN MAG is recommended that you change the barrels after 250rds of continous firing. But realistically, who the hell fires a 250 round burst? (Not to mention the crazy 100+ points of recoil compensation needed to shoot at something accurately) In actual fact, you could fire until the barrel glows red, but then you had better stop and let it cool down naturally(no dunking in water, please) |
Some of the target shooters use er.. rubbing alcohol I believe, to cool their barrels faster. Not that it matters when your barrel is red hot.
If you get the barrel hot enough, the weight of the barrel can cause warping/ bending, and it's bad to shoot after that.
| QUOTE (VoceNoctum) |
| True, it doesn't really merit a dicussion since your opinions are pretty much set in stone |
Actually, it doesn't merit discussion while we don't have a general discussion board. I'm up for a real debate as much as anyone— moreso, even— but not here. And while the lack of a general discussion board is the subject of some debate and was really a bad decision, that's just how it is, and no one in power really feels like changing it. Hence, no discussion.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| But realistically, who the hell fires a 250 round burst? (Not to mention the crazy 100+ points of recoil compensation needed to shoot at something accurately) |
Combat can be pretty unforgiving. And recoil simply doesn't work by the silly principles Shadowrun would have you think it does. After a while, there is rough point at which your aim really can degrade no further.
| QUOTE (VoceNoctum) |
| Some of the target shooters use er.. rubbing alcohol I believe, to cool their barrels faster. Not that it matters when your barrel is red hot. |
The barrel doesn't get red hot, and, really, the idea there would be to jacket the barrel with a liquid fillable sleeve and let the alcohol evaporate off during use. You're not quenching the barrel in alcohol, which is both kind of dangerous in case it gets ignited and simply bad practice that's very likely to lead to warped barrels, etc— and stupid move made famous by the AUG's manual that advises quenching the stupidly exposed barrel in water or snow should it get uncomfortably hot.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| After a while, there is rough point at which your aim really can degrade no further. |
I am sure toturi, as a former MG gunner, knows this well, but doesn't mention it. Because we know toturi's stance on things that make SR canon look silly...
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| You're not quenching the barrel in alcohol, which is both kind of dangerous in case it gets ignited and simply bad practice that's very likely to lead to warped barrels, etc— and stupid move made famous by the AUG's manual that advises quenching the stupidly exposed barrel in water or snow should it get uncomfortably hot. |
We were, in fact, taught to drop changed MG barrels into snow if it's available to cool them down quicker. Also, on several occasions I witnessed training officers (all of whom should know their shit) rubbing snowballs on RK and KK (LMG) barrels after they'd been shooting a lot. It's quite likely, however, that they wouldn't've done that if they had paid for the weapons themselves.
Not that it's a very realistic scenario, but if the choice is between continuing to fire right away with the possibility of some barrel damage and having to wait while the gun cools down, I think I know which I'm going to take
~J
~J
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| The FN MAG is recommended that you change the barrels after 250rds of continous firing. But realistically, who the hell fires a 250 round burst? (Not to mention the crazy 100+ points of recoil compensation needed to shoot at something accurately) |
My saxophone teacher. He had this little problem with a large amount of guys in long brown coats and funny helmets comming at him screaming "Urräääääh" at the top of their lungs. Not very funny for either side I believe. At least he survived to tell.
As for the in-rules use: There is none due to the game mechanics unless you use it as covering fire (or however it is called in CC). In that case you don't aim at a character but at a region.
As for in-game use: If the SC and NSC play "in character" instead of "in statistics" they should at least keep their heads down while that burst lasts. And if you use cased ammo, it has this "Hot Shots II" effect for laughs.
Or maybe it's the last reflex the cyberarm of the guard they killed pulls off, locking hand&trigger finger into place....
If you want high rate of sustained fire, you should go gaitlingguns&case ammo. The high rotation speed (4000rpm in a 6pack minigun http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/m134.htm http://world.guns.ru/machine/minigun-e.htm ) as well as the heavy construction makes for relatively good cooling. Turning down the RoF is also easy since all miniguns IRL are either mechanical (Old style Gatlings) or electrical driven and the speed is freely adjustable. Barrel life etc. is the same but the load is spread over multiple barrels.
Oh, and the M214 finally makes Trolls useful.
Birdy
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| The barrel doesn't get red hot, and, really, the idea there would be to jacket the barrel with a liquid fillable sleeve and let the alcohol evaporate off during use. You're not quenching the barrel in alcohol, which is both kind of dangerous in case it gets ignited and simply bad practice that's very likely to lead to warped barrels, etc— and stupid move made famous by the AUG's manual that advises quenching the stupidly exposed barrel in water or snow should it get uncomfortably hot. |
That's what I mean, if the barrel is red hot, you're pretty much done with the barrel, cool down or no. The early M16 pencil barrels overheated pretty quick, and could warp fairly easily. You don't see the same problems with the new heavier barrels/ 3 round burst.
The alcohol (If that is actually the material used, I can't recall) is a target shooter thing. A heated barrel can throw point of impact off, so cooling it down artificially helped during strings of fire. I believe alcohol evaporated quicker, displacing the heat better. It was indeed rubbed on with a rag, or perhaps even poured on, no jacket.
It's been quite a while though, so the facts may be different than I remember.
| QUOTE (Birdy) |
| The high rotation speed (4000rpm in a 6pack minigun |
You don't get much more than 16.7 revolutions per second/1000 revolutions per minute. Good for a bit of "wind" cooling, certainly.
| QUOTE (Birdy) |
| Turning down the RoF is also easy since all miniguns IRL are either mechanical (Old style Gatlings) or electrical driven and the speed is freely adjustable. |
RL miniguns don't have freely adjustable RoFs, though, usually just a few presets to choose between (2000rpm, 4000rpm for example). Theoretically, it could be done. A bit of smartlinking and why not?
| QUOTE (Birdy) |
| Oh, and the M214 finally makes Trolls useful. |
You can't get much less useful than an M214. As a troll weapon it just doesn't suck quite as much ass as it would otherwise.
We need to bring back hand-cranked gatlings.
Picture a troll in aristocratic clothing from the days of the railroad barons, setting up a tripod-mounted gatling gun and beginning to crank.
~J
Picture a troll in aristocratic clothing from the days of the railroad barons, setting up a tripod-mounted gatling gun and beginning to crank.
~J
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
I am sure toturi, as a former MG gunner, knows this well, but doesn't mention it. Because we know toturi's stance on things that make SR canon look silly... |
Actually, I always thought of firing 10+ rounds bursts as Suppressive Fire. And we all know how Suppressive Fire works in SR Canon, right?
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| We need to bring back hand-cranked gatlings. Picture a troll in aristocratic clothing from the days of the railroad barons, setting up a tripod-mounted gatling gun and beginning to crank. ~J |
Like the idea of the Troll rail baron.
Those things where between 1/2 and 1 inch in caliber. Even with the blackpowder ammo used back then this was quite a punch on short-medium range.
If a certain general hadn't left his gatlings behind, there would be a few "legendary" Wild West battles less.
Anybody up to writing scenarios about "building a railroad through NAN territory"
? Maybe as a funny one-timer?@Austerne:
I agree, the Troll should use a bigger gun. But a minigun with every 5th round a tracer should look "interesting" at night
@torturie
Ja! Short bursts 5-10 rnd for suppressive fire and / or target engagement. More for engaging Airborne targets (If you are crazy enough to fire on a Mi24 Hind with a 7.62mm MG - corporal recommended prayer&last will)
@all
A barrel survives getting slightly red (Wether the gunner survives contact with the staff/gunnery sergeant is another thing
) if it is left to cool properly (open barrel case) After all MG barrels are not match-grade to start with.Birdy
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