 How many continuous rounds until barrel dammage?, A question for Those Who Know Guns |
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 Aug 5 2004, 03:03 AM
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#26
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150  |
If you've never been shooting at a range, it wouldn't make sense. Variety is the spice of life. :) Bit> make sure it fits the Bushmaster before ordering, I'm not sure it does, pretty sure it doesn't actually. They were talking of one for the AR10 (Armalite) but I don't know that they've even done that one yet. |
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Aug 5 2004, 03:44 AM
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#27
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Already Got that covered if I'm correct. I need to verify but according to Bushmaster apparently their AR-10 a3 (and their whole AR-10 family) is specifically made to accept the majority of the M16/AR15 accessories. As an added bonus the rifle accepts both metric and imperial FN-FAL mags by design instead of Armalite mags. AFAIK they can accept This SIR system, Or for 200 bucks less This Four Rail Floated handguard with This Bipod Adapter which connects to This Bipod.
Assuming, of course I checked it all out right. I'll verify everything before I order it. Or, I may just be on crack. :D |
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Aug 5 2004, 11:16 AM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
It's stuff like this exactly that makes me think most MGs won't have real trouble with firing some pretty insane amounts of rounds cyclically, in the short run. It's just that the barrel will slowly degrade over time when you keep doing it.
I bet it did... |
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Aug 5 2004, 11:26 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
CoAx (using the hull as an additional heat-sink) or the commanders pintle-mounted AA gun (Not that it'll hit anything airborne unless it hovers right in front of it - and than it's likely a Hind) Add in that there is a chromed polygonal barrel (and even the german BW has them ;-) ) that withstands heat better than the old models. Btw: Welcome and: What BW unit did you serve in Birdy (who was 531 Jägers) |
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Aug 5 2004, 11:42 AM
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#30
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 3-August 04 Member No.: 6,535 |
The crazy burst was fired from the CoAx mount.
I was Panzergrenadier in 4./II/Jyske Dragon Regiment Site in Danish: http://www.milhist.dk/enheder/jyske_dragonregiment.htm |
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Aug 5 2004, 11:45 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Naaa, red flood coming over the hill. The creepy commies out to conquer the free world and take away the virtues of beer, babes and 30 days of paid hollydays ;-) Military experience (Staff means you meet a lot foreign people. A former Munster officer means you get to shoot strange stuff) and some privat shooting (AirGun, Small caliber [olympic/KK] Currently starting KK shooting again, will apply for a "combat" (Large caliber) handgun around christmas next year, getting myself a 9mm Para as a present. Birdy |
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Aug 7 2004, 11:42 AM
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#32
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
norway, where handguns are most likely only seen in the hands of police or some hard criminal elements and where hunting rifles of the non semi-auto is the norm for all other cases. allso, im aware of the posibility of military background but someone did make a statement that sounded like he personaly owned a machinegun :eek: i have stated my view on guns here before, and im not about to repeat myself. i will only say that the thought that one needs a handgun for selfdefence or defence of ones home to me sounds like a accident waiting to happen at best... |
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Aug 7 2004, 07:11 PM
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#33
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Statistically a handgun is used 4 times for defense for every one time a handgun is used in the comission of a crime. Despite what the media would have you believe handgun accidents are extremely rare compared to sucessful defensive uses of handguns.
And people's attitudes about these things vary dramatically by their upbringing. Also, if you have a collector's license you can own a machinegun here. |
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Aug 7 2004, 07:15 PM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
hobgoblin and I live in countries where you don't need handguns for self defense. Around here, you really need to have a weird childhood to think you do. I realize things might be different in the US. More importantly, I feel this topic does not deserve more than 3 consecutive messages on this board.
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Aug 7 2004, 07:54 PM
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#35
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Just as a note, I dont feel that I need a handgun for self defense. No one but the police really does. I do enjoy shooting though, and hence the reason I own one. The odds I'll ever need a handgun for defense is remarkably low.
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Aug 7 2004, 08:07 PM
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#36
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and i can understand the interest of target shooting. but how are the guns stored after use? allso, a collectors gun isnt a fully workable gun yes? if not then i would say your legal system is a bit insane in my view...
but aside from that lets not debate this mutch further as neither side will most likely change and we in effect live in diffrent worlds :) |
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Aug 7 2004, 09:01 PM
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#37
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Collectors' weapons do function (if they don't, anyone at any age can own one). There was a bill passed some time ago legalizing the ownership of weapons manufactured a certain amount of time ago that, in effect, made it fine for people to buy fully functioning WW2 weapons, considering that rashes of street violence with M1A1 Thompsons and M1918 BARs were not exactly common.
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Aug 7 2004, 10:34 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
...at all. Absolutely no point whatsoever. And if you want to let off steam, do it somewhere else.
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Aug 8 2004, 12:45 AM
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#39
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
True, it doesn't really merit a dicussion since your opinions are pretty much set in stone, but then... you're (well, hobgoblin and...) the one that raised the topic. If you had a collectable firearm, reducing it to non-functionality renders the value nil, just like if you took an antique sword and pounded the blade until it was no longer sharp. I'm happy there's no crime in your country. Guns, like knives, don't somehow act on their own. And, for the record, a hunting rifle is orders of magnitudes more efficient than a handgun... But, no numbers will change your mind, it's just different cultures. You've mentioned having the discussion on the boards before, so perhaps if you don't want a repeat of them, try to avoid commenting in gun threads. :) |
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Aug 8 2004, 03:46 PM
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#40
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
The FN MAG is recommended that you change the barrels after 250rds of continous firing. But realistically, who the hell fires a 250 round burst? (Not to mention the crazy 100+ points of recoil compensation needed to shoot at something accurately)
In actual fact, you could fire until the barrel glows red, but then you had better stop and let it cool down naturally(no dunking in water, please) |
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Aug 8 2004, 04:54 PM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
Some of the target shooters use er.. rubbing alcohol I believe, to cool their barrels faster. Not that it matters when your barrel is red hot. If you get the barrel hot enough, the weight of the barrel can cause warping/ bending, and it's bad to shoot after that. :) |
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Aug 8 2004, 06:39 PM
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#42
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Actually, it doesn't merit discussion while we don't have a general discussion board. I'm up for a real debate as much as anyone— moreso, even— but not here. And while the lack of a general discussion board is the subject of some debate and was really a bad decision, that's just how it is, and no one in power really feels like changing it. Hence, no discussion.
Combat can be pretty unforgiving. And recoil simply doesn't work by the silly principles Shadowrun would have you think it does. After a while, there is rough point at which your aim really can degrade no further.
The barrel doesn't get red hot, and, really, the idea there would be to jacket the barrel with a liquid fillable sleeve and let the alcohol evaporate off during use. You're not quenching the barrel in alcohol, which is both kind of dangerous in case it gets ignited and simply bad practice that's very likely to lead to warped barrels, etc— and stupid move made famous by the AUG's manual that advises quenching the stupidly exposed barrel in water or snow should it get uncomfortably hot. |
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Aug 8 2004, 06:49 PM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I am sure toturi, as a former MG gunner, knows this well, but doesn't mention it. Because we know toturi's stance on things that make SR canon look silly... ;)
We were, in fact, taught to drop changed MG barrels into snow if it's available to cool them down quicker. Also, on several occasions I witnessed training officers (all of whom should know their shit) rubbing snowballs on RK and KK (LMG) barrels after they'd been shooting a lot. It's quite likely, however, that they wouldn't've done that if they had paid for the weapons themselves. :) |
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Aug 8 2004, 07:58 PM
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#44
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Not that it's a very realistic scenario, but if the choice is between continuing to fire right away with the possibility of some barrel damage and having to wait while the gun cools down, I think I know which I'm going to take :)
~J |
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Aug 8 2004, 09:33 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
My saxophone teacher. He had this little problem with a large amount of guys in long brown coats and funny helmets comming at him screaming "Urräääääh" at the top of their lungs. Not very funny for either side I believe. At least he survived to tell. As for the in-rules use: There is none due to the game mechanics unless you use it as covering fire (or however it is called in CC). In that case you don't aim at a character but at a region. As for in-game use: If the SC and NSC play "in character" instead of "in statistics" they should at least keep their heads down while that burst lasts. And if you use cased ammo, it has this "Hot Shots II" effect for laughs. Or maybe it's the last reflex the cyberarm of the guard they killed pulls off, locking hand&trigger finger into place.... If you want high rate of sustained fire, you should go gaitlingguns&case ammo. The high rotation speed (4000rpm in a 6pack minigun http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/m134.htm http://world.guns.ru/machine/minigun-e.htm ) as well as the heavy construction makes for relatively good cooling. Turning down the RoF is also easy since all miniguns IRL are either mechanical (Old style Gatlings) or electrical driven and the speed is freely adjustable. Barrel life etc. is the same but the load is spread over multiple barrels. Oh, and the M214 finally makes Trolls useful. Birdy |
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Aug 8 2004, 10:58 PM
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#46
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Target Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 150 |
That's what I mean, if the barrel is red hot, you're pretty much done with the barrel, cool down or no. The early M16 pencil barrels overheated pretty quick, and could warp fairly easily. You don't see the same problems with the new heavier barrels/ 3 round burst. The alcohol (If that is actually the material used, I can't recall) is a target shooter thing. A heated barrel can throw point of impact off, so cooling it down artificially helped during strings of fire. I believe alcohol evaporated quicker, displacing the heat better. It was indeed rubbed on with a rag, or perhaps even poured on, no jacket. It's been quite a while though, so the facts may be different than I remember. |
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Aug 8 2004, 11:05 PM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You don't get much more than 16.7 revolutions per second/1000 revolutions per minute. Good for a bit of "wind" cooling, certainly.
RL miniguns don't have freely adjustable RoFs, though, usually just a few presets to choose between (2000rpm, 4000rpm for example). Theoretically, it could be done. A bit of smartlinking and why not?
You can't get much less useful than an M214. As a troll weapon it just doesn't suck quite as much ass as it would otherwise. ;) |
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Aug 8 2004, 11:11 PM
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#48
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
We need to bring back hand-cranked gatlings.
Picture a troll in aristocratic clothing from the days of the railroad barons, setting up a tripod-mounted gatling gun and beginning to crank. ~J |
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Aug 9 2004, 01:32 AM
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#49
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Actually, I always thought of firing 10+ rounds bursts as Suppressive Fire. And we all know how Suppressive Fire works in SR Canon, right? |
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Aug 9 2004, 10:17 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Like the idea of the Troll rail baron. Those things where between 1/2 and 1 inch in caliber. Even with the blackpowder ammo used back then this was quite a punch on short-medium range. If a certain general hadn't left his gatlings behind, there would be a few "legendary" Wild West battles less. Anybody up to writing scenarios about "building a railroad through NAN territory" :-) ? Maybe as a funny one-timer? @Austerne: I agree, the Troll should use a bigger gun. But a minigun with every 5th round a tracer should look "interesting" at night @torturie Ja! Short bursts 5-10 rnd for suppressive fire and / or target engagement. More for engaging Airborne targets (If you are crazy enough to fire on a Mi24 Hind with a 7.62mm MG - corporal recommended prayer&last will) @all A barrel survives getting slightly red (Wether the gunner survives contact with the staff/gunnery sergeant is another thing ;-) ) if it is left to cool properly (open barrel case) After all MG barrels are not match-grade to start with. Birdy |
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