 Ambidexterity, two weapon fighting |
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 Aug 16 2004, 07:00 PM
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#101
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Traumatizing players since 1992  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220  |
But you aren't allowed to use many of the techniques because they aren't safe fo the people doing them, as you said earlier, and according to the SCA.org website there's also futher rules of honor that govern the fights, which would eliminate even more techniques. correct?
so the SCA isn't an authentic fighting school? they go teach their authentic schools then they teach SCA also?
Realistic simulations except for the honor based rules and the disallowed techniques you mentioned earlier. Right?
So you bash someone for "not knowing about the SCA" yet you have never been to his friends school and say for a fact that anyone from the SCA could kick their ass. Hmmmm. Double Standard.
No, I don;t think you are a liar. I think you believe what you are saying but that doesn't make it right. Much like someone who insists the moon is made of green cheese because that's what he was told from birth. He believes it that doesnt make him right.
And the website at: http://ic.net/~blues/wfstart.htm Which is the official site linkied to from sca.org about their combat portrays a wholly different attitude than rory here. |
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Aug 16 2004, 08:57 PM
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#102
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
1. I never said it was a joke. It's entertainment. 2. I never said it was easy. Few seriously physical endeavors are. 3. What I did say is that it wasn't anymore comparable to genuine medieval combat than Lazer Tag is to SWAT training. Or for an even closer anology, the WWF compared to competitive wrestling. Believe it or not, the SCA isn't some super secret society that only precious few individuals have ever heard of, let alone witnessed. The fact that you seem to think so many people are ignorant to what it is and what they do only testifies to your own ignorance on the subject. To be honest, I kind of doubt that you're even a member. You come across more as a sheltered armchair teenie bopper who, after being busted for talking out of his ass, has gone on the defensive in the most hardcore and irrational way possible. But that's just my opinion and I have nothing to back it up. |
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Aug 16 2004, 10:12 PM
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#103
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: 23-February 03 Member No.: 4,141 |
Yes and no. There is no striking below the knee. Why? I don't have an answer. Maybe back in the beginning when we were creating rules too many people were getting their feet and ankles broken? Maybe foot armor is just too damn hard to fabricate and articulate correctly? Do you think keeping that small target area off limits would significantly change the outcome of a real fight where any part of the body was a legal target? Think about how dumb you sound here. In practice we narrow and limit ourselves, in a real fight we are free to hit more area, hmmm. We don't allow wrestling, we don't allow striking an unarmed opponent if he drops his sword, we don't allow hitting an opponent flat on his back, we don't allow hitting an opponent who is not aware of our presence, etc... Most of the things we don't allow would make our jobs of killing ten times easier. In that respect we are training tougher than what it would be in a real fight. Besides, I weigh 260 pounds, I wrestled in school, and I run 18 to 20 miles a week, I would love to wrestle. For the record, and you can go back to this link and hear it from one of the best fighters alive, about 5 to 6 minutes into his lecture. When fighting, the best fighters the world over from nearly any martial sport have about three or four basic techniques that they use over and over in there fights for about 90% of the time or more. They know all the fancy smancy techniques, but they rarely if ever use them. If you knew the first thing about fighting you would not be in here making a fool of yourself trying to insinuate that all these BS techniques you allude to, but don't even know of yourself I should add.
I think you know exactly what I meant. Authentic, as in by some stupid book at one point in history, against one form of warfare, that was happening at one place on the planet. But historically authentic...flaws and all.
What techniques would you be referring to? I don't watch much "tv".
First I didn't say "anyone" from the sca could kick his friend's ass. That is a word you put in my mouth, a common theme on these boards apparantly. If you look back you will see I said the top fighters in the SCA can defeat the top fighters from any other school on earth. I said I would be happy to prove my point against any master you can produce in the Detroit area and I am not even one of the best. The fact is though, that after fighting some really ferocious athletes, from all walks of life and skill level, many from these schools we ar talking about, you pretty much know what to expect. Could you say the two or three hundred men that never fought SCA full contact that I have personally been their first instructor would allow me to make an informed opinion or not? You can't see how I am so confident. Understandable, you also don't know shit about fighting past what you have seen on tv from the sounds of you.
I am confused? What exactly is different from what this guy is saying from what I am saying? Maybe you could point that out for me. Did you read the disclaimer btw? Probably not. Did you even read the article at all? Probably not. Here is the disclaimer: "The opinions expressed herein are those of the author, and may not reflect the policies of the Society for Creative Anachronism"
Your exact words were "It's a total joke". Pretty rude of you to disrespect what I do. Pretty cowardly of you to sit on your ass behind a computer screen somewhere and think you are cool.
Yeah you did say that, and you are full of shit too. You don't know the first thing about medieval combat, you don't know the first thing about SCA combat, you are talking out the side of your mouth. What is your point? SWAT uses simulators to train with. They also use firing ranges. I would agree with you btw if you had said any martial art not using full contact is comparable to lazer tag and SWAT training. basically what you are saying is that full contact kickboxers who uses gloves are no more genuine prize fighters than Lazer tag players are to SWAT officers. Do you see how ridiculous your comparison is?
No, there are thousands of fighters across the world. What gave you the idea anyone thinks it is a secret group? The fact I think so many people are ignorant on the subject is a testament to the fact that so many people like you are ignorant. All I see you doing is trolling these boards inserting your smart mouthed comments here and there without adding anything intelligent. You think you know something, but in reality you don't know jack shit. You are probably some chubby little nerd that can't get a date so spends his time trolling the boards on mummies computer, that is how you act anyway. Oh, and I already said I am not a "current" member of the SCA. I still practice, I still fight. Membership is not a requirement for participation. And you think I have been busted on any point in this thread? Name it please and I will set it straight. Huh, you are funny, you have an opinion, but that's it. And it is certainly not based in knowledge, that is abundantly obvious. Think I am a sheltered teenie talking out my ass? Bring that smack to MoTown, I am available nights and weekends, son. |
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Aug 16 2004, 10:47 PM
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#104
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
What you can and can't do personally is irrelevant. I participate in Quest, which is a fairly damn unrealistic LARP, but I can fight fairly well and am at least passably athletic (all because of things unrelated to Quest). Does that mean that Quest is a great way to learn to fight? ~J |
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Aug 16 2004, 11:19 PM
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#105
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
The's pretty much the exact resposne expected from someone that is exactly what he described, whether you are or not. That pretty much will reinforce his position and opinion of you. And Rory, while complaining ohters pre twsiting words and putting words in your mouth you do the exact same thing to others. Oto, Kettle is calling for you on line 2.
First I never said anything about changing the outcome of a fight, I simply asked if there were some illegal techniques. Then YOU bring up changing the outcome of a fight and say how stupid it sounds. If it sounds so stupid you shouldn't have brought it up, because I didn't bring it up you did. First you draw a conclusion for me, then you attack it. You're doing great arguing with yourself! Then we get to dunny stuff like:
I dont watch TV pretty much at all, nor did I even mention TV, again something introdiced entirely by you. And to answer the "what techniques" I'll reply with your own quotes from your own post:
There, you did a great job of answering your own question.
Er, but all of the things you listed are the situations where it is easier to make a kill!
So it's easier to score a kill if the opponent is NOT on his back, and aware of your presence? I thought it would be far easier to kill someone if he was flat on his back and didn't know you were there. In fact, I'd think that would be the FAR preferred scenario!
Where did that come from? was that mentioned? what does that have to do with anything?
So now you tell me I know nothing about fighting (which I don't think I HAVE claimed to knwo anything about fighting, but that's okay...) then again bring up the techniques that I havent listed, but that's okay because you listed a few of them as I have quoted above... please, feel free to use your own quotes.
Okay then I won't put any words anywhere, please provide links that the world's top fencers and hand to hand combatabts are all SCA members, because if it was a siimple matter for the olympic fencing titles to be snagged by SCA members surely there is some documentation of this. After all, SCA members can beat them.
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Aug 16 2004, 11:30 PM
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#106
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 201 Joined: 13-August 04 From: Fort Smith, Arkansas Member No.: 6,560 |
...BUMP...yeah, like this thread wasn't getting enough action already. :please: Anyway, go about your debate. I'm just gonna stay over here in the sidelines some more. :spin:
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Aug 16 2004, 11:44 PM
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#107
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That is perhaps one of the oddest bumps I have ever seen for a thread. They're usually reserved for inactive ones, you know? :)
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Aug 16 2004, 11:53 PM
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#108
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 201 Joined: 13-August 04 From: Fort Smith, Arkansas Member No.: 6,560 |
Well, I understand the basic concept behind bumps but wanted to do so anyway, because I really don't want to get in the middle of this (both sides seem quite steadfast and researched) but I also was trying to make a somewhat sarcastic, though minimally flaming, remark about how this discussion went from Shadowrun Game Mechanics to pissing contest. It's interesting and I'm not saying that either side is wrong, I was just trying to make a simple statement.
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Aug 17 2004, 12:10 AM
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#109
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
If hits below the knee have so little to do with the outcome of the fight, why are there so many scandinavian tombs with warriors who have leg wounds (evidenced mostly by broken bone/slashes where the swords and spears hit bone)?
Also Blackhand, you were USMC Recon, where'd you serve? |
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Aug 17 2004, 12:21 AM
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#110
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Avatar of Mediocrity Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 725 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle, WA (err, UCAS) Member No.: 277 |
...and what color is the boathouse at Hereford?
:) |
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Aug 17 2004, 12:24 AM
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#111
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I dont know what color the boathouse is, but the point is neither did he. ;) |
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Aug 17 2004, 12:43 AM
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#112
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You say after three minutes.
I'm not saying anything about whether or not he'll know, he may or may not, but it's a tad early to say that. ~J |
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Aug 17 2004, 01:39 AM
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#113
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Reread that. If you're going to argue with him, it works better when you do something other than restate his words and act like he said the opposite. |
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Aug 17 2004, 01:46 AM
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#114
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Attacking the lower legs is one of the best ways to reduce an opponents fighting ability. The more difficult it is for your opponent to move, the greater control you have over the fight. If your opponent can't stand, so much the better. Even against armored opponents, attacking the legs can be devastating to balance. In Shadowrun terms, huge TN penalities either way. Of course, any form of full contact sparing is important when training to fight. At the every least, it teaches one how to take a hit without losing focus, which is very important. It usually improves reaction as well. Depending on the quality of the opposition, it can also provide countless other benefits. SCA combat is no exception. However, sparing doesn't teach you how to kill. If it did, most people who spar would die. Such safety measures do adversely effect combat. People who consistently train with certain areas off limits to attack tend to neglect defense in those areas, for example. It is important to know the consequences of safety regulations and understand what combat would be like without them. Oh, and if anyone wants to be a munchkin using duel wield rules, a strength 10 Troll Cybercombat Adept with paired dikoted spurs is insane. 16S with 16 dice. But, he wouldn't be a sword saint. The off-hand weapon really doesn't matter because it only contributes dice, not damage. But, I would presume that paired two-handed weapons result in double TN penalities |
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Aug 17 2004, 02:05 AM
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#115
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Okay yeah, that was entirely my fault. I misread what he said. |
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Aug 17 2004, 04:07 AM
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#116
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: 23-February 03 Member No.: 4,141 |
kagetenshi, I am not insinuating that my sca training helped me do anything but have a desire to stay in shape so that I can compete. I have never claimed to be the best or even a top fighter either. Not once. I am just stating that personally grappling would not work very well on me. Nothing more. In my opinion as a wrestler and sword fighter, I don't see much usefulness to it considering my free hand could be actively engaged in using a second weapon or shield to help me kill or stay alive longer. Grappling is about the biggest waste of time I can think of in fact when your object is to get in there and destroy your opponent as quickly as you can.
That's cool. It's not like I am going to hurt him if he takes me up on it...much. I meant he can put some armor on and show this sheltered teenie how a real experienced tough guy like he is does things. I am just making myself available. We can play some shadowrun afterwards. That offer is open for anyone out there who wans to step up to the plate. I've been down thru there with alot of them, powerlifters, college football players, shot putters, and hockey players, martial artists, bikers, lots of Marines lots of different folks.
I don't care if you said anything about changing the outcome of a fight or not, you implied it with your line of questioning. If you wish the reader to draw a different conclusion I guess you should start saying exactly what you mean. Stop trying to nit pick everything I say as well and add evidence to whatever your claim is instead of wrangling with words. What was the point in asking about the few things that are not allowed in SCA combat if it was not meant to imply that these couple of limits would change the outcome of a real fight? As if to say "eureka" the SCA is not realistic because they don't allow you to _________ (fill in mamby pamby little reason, ad nauseum, blah, blah, blah). And before you start in on attacking the SCA system of combat simulation let's not ignore that no training system flawlessly mimics actual combat, but none in my and alot of very knowledgable other people's opinions, come close in reproducing the realism of heavy combat like the SCA does.
You made an attack on the safety rules in the SCA to reinforce your position? that the SCA can't produce the best heavy weapons fighters on earth. Your drivel has bored me so much I hardly even recognize what you have been saying, nor do I think you even know what you are saying. You seem to be coming up with tid bits here and there with no cohesion to your overall argument as we debate. A sign that you know very little about the subject you are so opinionated on. What part of this statement is too deep for you not to understand? "Most of the things we don't allow would make our jobs of killing ten times easier." I'll break it down for you. Most of the things we don't allow, ie..hitting someone with his back turned, hitting someone before the referee gives the signal, hitting someone who is prone, hitting a weaponless opponent, get this part? Most of the things we DO NOT ALLOW.....would make our jobs of killing 10 times easier. ie, if we could strike a man's shins, if we could strike a man with his back to us, if we could strike a disarmed opponent, etc.. our job of killing WOULD BE 10 times easier. Does this make sense to you now? Do you think that if you were to train to hit a smaller target in practice then have a larger target available in the real fight that it would be easier or harder for you to hit the target? I know that is a tough one for a guy like you...practice hitting a smaller target area in training...get a bigger target area in the real thing. Do you think you will score more or less hits in real battle. Can you answer that? Better. Can you answer it with anything that makes sense? The fact is that all the little tricks in the world rarely get used and like Sir brannos says they are sometimes hard to remember, if you are the type of fighter who gives a crap in the first place that is. In any fighting sport only a few basic techniques are used 99.99% of the time. Maybe 4 or 5 techniques is all anyone nees to know to be a winner. The flying back flip loop the loop double spinning sidesnap roundhouse kick might look cool on film, but a plain old front kick gets used infinitely more. Get my point? Showing that the SCA does not allow a few minor techniques does not reduce the level of combat readiness of those who train in heavy armored fighting techniques in the SCA. I would rather see a good explanation as to why full contact and ALL weapon combinations are not utilized in those other so called historically authentic fighting schools.
That was blatantly obvious from your first post, kid.
If you read closely at what I am saying you will find that I am well aware of this. As it pertains to being able to fight in a real battle where that target location would be opened up it has little to do with the outcome. Training with a reduced size target will not likely detract from your fighting ability in the real battle, in fact it would make it even easier to kill your opponent if a larger profile became fair game. Don't you agree. The Vikings you refer to had alot of hits in the shoulder and head areas as well. This was probably a sign of shield usage and lack of the use of leg greaves more than anything else.
I was stationed at Camp lejuene, why do you ask? Were you a Marine as well? I went to boot camp at mcrd San Diego, went to froc (Field Radio Operator's Course) at 29 Palms, Was stationed at Camp Lejuene in a 105mm artillery battalion, vounteered for Recon, went to Amphibious reconaisance School in Quantico. Etc... I traveled half way around the world and back, got into SCA fighting, drank alot of beer, chased alot of women, it was a great experience. Where were you stationed?
Never heard of it. Is this just some dumb ass shit you are making up? There is alot of Marine bases. I have never even heard of Hereford. I can tell you about Mount Mother f$%$er though.
And this is supposed to mean what? I was not a Marine? Pretty pathetic if this is the best you can do. And quite silly. Why would you even jump to that conclusion and make an ass of yourself? You don't mind wearing egg on your face apparently?
INteresting article, I had intended to read it fully. You miss my point though. I never said that attacking below the knee is not a good fighting tactic. I have simply said that limiting the target area just a little bit in practice will make you more accurate. It should be much easier to take an opponent down in a real fight once the entire body is open for attack. Don't you agree?
This is why we devote a large amount of training to fight with our legs crippled. From the knee and above is a much harder target to hit, but it happens enough that we devote training to bettering ourselves to fighting while hamstrung.
That defeats everything the Romans and Greeks have taught us about training armies. Sparring does teach you how to kill. That is the basic purpose of training with wooden weapons. It is ridiculous to think most people would die in training.
This is perhaps the best point made so far. Were it up to me I would open the lower legs to attacks and force leg greaves to be worn as well as foot armor. I am just one guy though. This point is certainly nothing to suddenly say ah ha! over though. i'm not convinced it would be that significant a deal. Fully armored opponents would have the lower leg armored to counter this. And the example you used is fencing. It is not full armored combat. My statement still stands that the SCA has produced the best modern fighters for heavy combat alive today. Even without lower leg shots, no other school or group can offer all the benefits to warfare the SCA can. |
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Aug 17 2004, 04:15 AM
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#117
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Rory, did you previously post here under the handle Polaris by any chance?
And the direct flaming is not only not appreciated, but it's a violation of the board policies. I may have a problem with what you have to say but I never directly insulted you. |
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Aug 17 2004, 04:19 AM
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#118
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
He doesn't open with "Guys," and hasn't claimed to be a physicist with the NSA.
Thus, by brilliant deduction, he cannot be Polaris. A relative, perhaps, but not Polaris. ~J |
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Aug 17 2004, 04:25 AM
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#119
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
Well, hell, why are you practicing with such a large target area? You should practice hitting a golf-ball-sized spot on their lower back, then when you get into actual duals you'll be unstoppable. :) The Hereford thing is a reference to the movie Ronin. |
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Aug 17 2004, 04:25 AM
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#120
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: 23-February 03 Member No.: 4,141 |
I've never posted here before, no. And from the reception I have recieved so far I am not feeling too warm a welcome. As to "flaming" I am not sure exactly what that is. I am no expert at online arguing and when I get angry I have a tendency to let my fists do my talking in real life. If you feel insulted you should look back to the post that I was responding to. You have questioned my honor and honesty and I do not appreciate this at all. I assume this is flaming as well? To be honest I have not read the forum rules. I just came here with a simple couple of questions and you guys all jumped with me with a bunch of BS cut owns on my character and the way of fighting I am involved with, and without ever even have tried it yourselves to make an informed opinion on. I suppose you can have me thrown off the board, which will be sad for me, but I will not apologize for defending myself from character attacks. I don't let anyone talk to me that way and I don't think I will start now. If there is a way to just delete this thread I will be happy to see it go. I am not tired of defending my sport fghting but I am tired of being called a liar, indirectly or other.
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Aug 17 2004, 04:32 AM
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#121
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 177 Joined: 23-February 03 Member No.: 4,141 |
At home I do. I have markered off exact target areas to train with. I like the colored marks so my sword shows up better in high speed smoker drills. I also have a softball suspended from an arbor that is anchored to the ground which I practice thrusting at with polearms. It does help.
Pffft, that figures. That is where most of these guys get there information I think. |
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Aug 17 2004, 04:41 AM
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#122
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You see, it's jabs like that that make a lot of us jab back.
For instance, things between you and I got a lot more hostile when, after I said you were wrong, you didn't say that instead I'm incorrect and here's why, you said "you don't know what you're talking about". Can you see why that might stick in someone's craw? ~J |
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Aug 17 2004, 04:51 AM
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#123
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Funny, when reading back on the thread, he gave examples of why your interjection was wrong and tossed the insult in the middle of them. Then you explicitly called him a liar over it.
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Aug 17 2004, 04:54 AM
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#124
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Flaming is making an attack twards a person instead of responding to their argument. There is a difference between the person and what they are saying.
No problem, I work in a jail, and about half out inmates are here for the exact same reason, it seems common. :D
No, I do NOT question your honest, and honor is a code of concept never even directly though about bu 99.99% (or more) of the world. I don't even know what you consider "honor" in this context. I specifically said that I believe that you believe you are telling the truth. That doesn't mean that I believe you are right, just that I acknowledge that you believe you are right. I don;t think you're being purposefully deceptive.
No, because you are mispercieving my view, I never said you were lying.
I dont think anyone here has attacked your character. We have a problem with some wholly grandiose and unrealistic statements you are making. We aren't making attacks on you personally. I can provide examples if you wish.
After reading back on the thread I don't think any of the statements above were really character attacks at all, although that's what you seem to be taking them as.
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Aug 17 2004, 05:03 AM
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#125
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Blackhand, I was just wondering, I grew up around Orange County and used to deliver pizzas out to Camp Pendleton when I was in high school before I joined the service.
No, I wasn't a marine, and if any of you are wondering, there is more than one boat house at Hereford and they get repainted every spring, so who the hell knows what color they are now... |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 16th May 2026 - 12:51 AM |
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