Ambidexterity, two weapon fighting Options

[Rory Blackhand]

I said lame fighting kata because what they are doing is bouncing sticks off each others sticks. That is not going to serve any purpose and it certainly is no way to train to kill. They don't even have headgear on. Obviously it is nothing more than fluff.

I place alot of emphasis on armor because it is that good of an asset. You have obviously never been in armor or you would not have the false opinion that armor slows you down. The weight is very evenly distributed and I am quite capable of making rapid violent moves in it. Can I sprint in it? No of course not. I assume anyone coming to a fight is going to actually stay and fight. You are way off the mark though if you think anyone can come within striking range of me and move faster than my sword arm to somehow dance around behind me in circles. That is quite ridiculous. Not to mention that I personally endurance train as well. I can run three miles in 19 minutes and 20 seconds, not a track star, but that is a pretty good clip. I do three 6 mile runs a week. I am the last person who gets tired on the battle field. And I am the last person that needs to be explained how to exercise to. I won't be stumbling after anyone. I will just patiently wait for him to come within 10 feet of me. In a tournament there are usually boundaries. And in Shadowrun there is no movement penalty for wearing an armored vest and a long coat, so what is your point anyway?

Most people are not ambidextrous either. You might feel your off hand is just dead weight. In that case I would recommend you carrying a shield instead of a second sword because if you are not able to generate a successful attack with your off hand then you are wasting your time with a second weapon in it. I don't get where you guys are using all these weapons but you never fought in the SCA before? Is this some sort of LARP experience? If you are not using weapons that weigh in accurately you are not getting realistic fighting experience.

You find my remark about weapon weight having a direct bearing on killing power ignorant? Let me try it another way since you did not bother to view the link I provided on weapon cutting power. Do you know what a butcher's knife is? It is a short heavy bladed knife that can chop thru chicken bones with one swing pretty easily. Go get your sharpest normal sized steak knife and see if you can chop thru the chicken's skin even with a single strike. It should be pretty obvious even to someone that knows nothing about weapons to figure out the difference in knives is what allowed the kill to be made. Technique has squat to do with it. Both knives can stab, but the chickens head can be removed with the heavier blade. Pretty simple logic.

And you think full plate was just made for parades and stuff? And you call me making ignorant statements? I wear half plate myself, I am pretty good at protecting my back. I would feel very comfortable fighting with live steel against an unarmored opponent, but I am not that bloodthirsty to wish a gruesome death on anyone. Where is this exactly that you are attacking an armored man? Some LARP game with foam filled pvc tubes? You don't fight heavy weapons in the SCA, I know that much for sure.

[FrostyNSO]

This 'field' is rife with ego, your's is just bigger than most. I'm not gonna argue with you anymore because you only seem to know what you're talking about in the context of what you practice.

[Rory Blackhand]

I don't have an ego problem. I am completly at ease with myself and what I have done. I have literaly fought thousands of full contact duels and wars in practices and tournaments. Armed combat is what I know. Start talking balistics, cars, or computers and I am dumb as a rock.

That you just threw me an insult kind of bugs me since you don't really know anything about me, but it's all good. Opinions vary. My only argument is that two katanas can easily be used effectively and there is historical proof that they were, let alone that one of the roleplaying suggestions on page 6 of the Shadowrun Companion says you can design a character background around your own self and if I did that I would be able to use two katanas hands down. It is cool though. You tried to shoot me down when I know damn well I am right and I tried my best to find useful links to back up my claim.

I guess this means you won't be explaining where you got 9 years of training in a rare martial art form that is not taught outside of Japan except in a very few places, huh?

[FrostyNSO]

Your right I should've kept the ego comment to myself so I apolagize for that.

If you can use two katana simultaniously then do it. We train with 2 full-size swords, but when I fight I use a long and short. I know it can be done. You have what works for you, I have what works for me.

Now I wouldn't agree with two nodachi or anything (even with a troll, because I would figure a troll would use troll-modified nodachi)

As far as finding links to support your claims, just becasue you find something on the internet doesn't mean it's entirely accurate. There are many aspects of Niten Ichi Ryu that you will not find on the internet, and in actuality, I have read translations of 'Five Rings' that have been radically different from one another as well.

If you need to know, I trained when I was based in Japan, I have since left and now I pursue it on my own. A lot of that includes full-contact sparring and trial/error, so in that respect I can understand your SCA style. Only when I am alone do I do kata, which are actually intended to maintain proper weapon control and technique. I do a lot of tameshigiri as well, and in the case of the japanese sword, weight does not equate to cutting power. Technique equates to cutting power. This is contrary to western blades which (quite a few) deliver 'chopping' blows, but that is just how the swords were designed to work. Either way, an excessively heavy sword (this depends on what you can handle) will slow you down.

A japanese sword was not meant to cut through a medieval knight's armor and in most cases probably wouldn't. We can talk semantics all day, but I'd rather not.

It doesn't matter either way because all the fights I've been in have been gunfights. In all my years I'd say I use my combat knife for mundane stuff 99.9% of the time.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Just to get a thread that has way outlived its usefulness to be closed down:

You really think the kind of fighting styles you learn through SCA are superior to all other melee fighting styles a person can learn in this day and age? Would you say, then, that someone trained in historically accurate sword fighting styles wouldn't stand a chance against someone who's trained through SCA?

I have a bit of a problem believing this. For example the schools teaching Italian style swordmanship base their stuff on methods established by people who had fought for their lives innumerable times and shared their wisdom with a dozen others who had also. Styles which are based on one thing only: how to kill the enemy as soon as possible. These employ tactics such as "concentrating unarmed attacks to the groin when fighting against males", or striking with a sword in such a way as to force the enemy to be in a 90 degree angle towards you and then following with a kick to the knee, or at which angles you should thrust with a sword to get under the plates protecting the upper arm, etc.

My understanding is that SCA doesn't teach stuff like that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but SCA fighting is based on either a system of which kind of hits and where count as a kill, ie you don't clubber each other until the other passes out (which would be more realistic, but still far from the conditions that would end a real fight).

I know which guy I'd want defending my friends&family, too.

[JaronK]

I should mention where I'm coming from in all this... I'm an actor, who's trained with a variety of weapons (off the top of my head: Broadsword, Greatsword, Rapier, Sabre, Epee, Case of Rapiers, Rapier and Dagger, Quarterstaff) for stage combat purposes, as well as a variety of Eastern weapons (Katana, Kama, Bo, Jo) as part of my Tae Kwon Do training, and I've had a great deal of circus training (Poi Balls, Bull Whips, etc are relevent here). I've also fenced with Sabres, Foils, and Epees. As a result, I'm very used to the feel of actual weapons, the ways they're meant to be used. A pair of Katana sized weapons is a legitimate weapon combination, but it's by no means easy, and when working with them I find that my offhand strikes are little more than distractions... they'd score points in a match, but they wouldn't penetrate very well. By using fluid motions learned mostly from Poi Balls, I've been able to up the strength of the attacks, but it's still hard to make things work properly, and I'm not convinced that duel weilding Katanas is any more effective than using a single one in combat. Now, duel weilding rapiers is a whole other story... they're easy to weild that way. The offhand rapier is often in more of a defensive role, but it's definitely usable.

I find that that offhand is much more suitable for blocking, distracting attacks, and short stabbing attacks than it is for slashing blows, since such large attacks detract from mainhand effectiveness and are often significantly weaker. As such, I'd have to agree that except in extream cases, it's better to weild a short weapon offhand (short sword, parrying dagger, etc.) than a full sized one. There are exceptions to every rule, though, and since this is a fanatasy game we're talking about, it seems logical to allow such things.

JaronK

[Rory Blackhand]

Apolgy accepted Frosty, I am not here to step on anyone's toes. I just want to ask a few questions now and then about this cool game we all play. If you felt I was rude then I apologize as well.

If a troll was going to customize a two handed weapon built for trolls, like a 9' claymore for example, should it do progressively more damage like the other weapons of the same type do? Example, knife to sword to katana to Claymore. They are all bigger edged weapons that do more damage. I'm not planning to use that, but if a troll could use no dachi and katana as a two sword style, does that sound reasonable? To simulate katana wakizashi.

And maybe Japanese blades are not best suited for two sword style because they lack a reverse cutting edge like the bastard swords I use do, but as a character concept I think they would just be cooler. Like a scene from Matrix. I visualize my fantasy character hopefully slicing up the competition like a whirling blender with both of his blades moving faster than the eye can see, etc.. For that to happen there would have to be a little bit of flexibility here. In fact I don't even see the wakizashi listed? Is this a sword? Or a knife? It's not a Cougar Fine Blade, so I assume it just an incomplete chart not meant to be the end all of two weapon fighting.

Austere Emancipator, to answer your question yes. I do absolutely feel that the SCA can produce the best melee fighter in the world today. I would not say that just anyone trained in the SCA would be able to defeat a trained fighter of any particular period in time though.

Humans are constantly getting stronger, faster, and more skilled as we gain access to information, training techniques, and nutrition not available to any ancient fighter. All you have to do to see proof is to look at olympic records being broken for the past 100 years. They estimate that about 1 out of every 3 or 4 humans that have ever lived are alive today. We have a much larger genetic stock to choose from and consequently compete with for the title of who is best at a certain task. And with information storage and access we are able to quickly determine which training techniques work and which don't in producing champions. In short, we have advanced training that the ancients would be in awe of. This is why I say that with our nutrition, knowledge, training techniques, and sheer numbers of competition I feel very comfortable with the idea that modern man is better able to produce a talented swordsman or anything else than any ancient culture.

That said, is there the motivation to do so? There are some outrageously good fighters, blinding speed and reaction, powerful execution, flawless defense. I am talking about a class of men above the normal. Maybe 10 in all that have dedicated their lives to combat and are every bit masters of their craft as any martial artist. There is no stone unearthed. If there is a manual on how to fight it was looke at. The SCA is not a perfect training medium, nothing is short of the real thing. But I have seen broken bones on multiple occasions. Is that real enough for you? It is unrealistic to think a wooden sword would be able club anyone down to unconsciousness. I knocked someone out in a practice once, but never had it happen again. Broken bones? Lots of them. You sign a waiver and you enter at your own risk.

JaronK, that is pretty cool. I would love to have a job sword fighting. My goal someday is to revolutionize the sport of sword fighting in Thailand when I move there to retire. I will be without a doubt using two long swords with full contact sparring gear.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Xirces]

[toturi]

Even without the Ambidex rules or 2 hand fighting rules, you can already use 2 cyber-implant weapons and get a benefit from it. And THAT's just with the BBB.

[Kagetenshi]

[Rory Blackhand]

Austere Emancipator, you sound interested enough in SCA combat to give it a try? It is really cool. You will get a real idea what it was like back then. The weapons are not padded though! The swords have to be 1 1/4" across minimum. I go heavier than this though. I have gone as much as 2 3/8" with a short sword. That was for melee fighting only when I use a shield and want a brick to manuever inside a tangle of spears and flailing polearms and still have the weight to make a good solid kill. A kill, by the way, is a solid blow that would have penetrated chainmail over boiled leather. Any light hit is not counted. That is why it is full speed. You want to hit hard. And if you did not wear armor you would get your brains beat out of your skull.

As far as Shadowrun goes. You are correct, two katanas is not giving me any more bonus over just buying a knife and katana, it actualy costs more money and is less concealable. It is pure roleplaying and style. Forget Musashi, I want to be me. I am not wanting to squeeze another bonus out of the game. If I was doing that I would go morning star and whip, both one handed reach two weapons and both on the proper list.



You get to add half your strength to the damage code when using two cyberweapons. That is an awesome bonus if you have a high strength.



Kagetenshi, there are fighting groups in the Boston area I can put you in touch with? They probably have a few ladies who will be about your speed as well. Origionaly you said you were not strong enough to wield two long swords (as if you had ever tried), I have seen ladies do it and say that I believe you can as well, but then you call me a liar, so I assume you are suffering from a serious lack of confidence in your own prowess? Maybe they have an 18 year old woman you can spar with? Be about your speed from the way I understand you to say.

[Kagetenshi]

I've used two swords (actual metal. Bad swords, so they were heavier than they should have been, but not by that much), and they were a damn sight shorter than 50".

If you want me to believe you can use even a single 50" sword effectively one-handed, give me some proof. That's some serious leverage to be applying with one hand.

~J

[Xirces]

[Kagetenshi]

Because a lot of armed fighting styles teach one-weapon use, even with small weapons, while I'm unaware of a fighting style that uses just one arm.

~J

[Austere Emancipa...]

[BitBasher]

I'm unaware of a weapon fighting style that doesn't also have you using your off hand, and other limbs to strike with when necessary. Unless the weapon is two handed only I dont see that anything is different.

I just think the mechanic for using a second weapon in SR pretty well sucks anyway. That's why I don't use it. I let it up the power some but NOT add 50% more dice.

[FrostyNSO]

I've found Aiki-Jiujitsu to complement my one-weapon fighting immensely =)

If you wanted to make a 9-foot troll claymore, I would keep the damage code the same for game balance issues. The troll is already going to need (relative to a human) hight strength to use it, which will up the power itself.

As far as the two sword thing, toss the rules as long as your players and you think it's reasonable =)

[JaronK]

You know, having weilded a real broadsword before (for stage combat purposes... it was dulled but otherwise completely acurate) I'm not sure those things could be weilded offhand by anything but a giant. I mean, they tire you out weilding them in just your mainhand... we mostly used them two handed for that very reason. Broadswords are heavier than Katanas... I really don't buy that anyone small could duel weild those things if they were of correct weight.

JaronK

[mfb]

i'd disagree. i don't doubt that you know your way around a weapon, but it doesn't sound like you've spent hours and hours every day doing nothing but swinging your weapon at a wooden post, the better to build up the muscles you use for swinging a sword. try that, four hours a day for a month, and you might find that swinging that broadsword becomes a bit easier.

[Rory Blackhand]

Yes, the hits have to be hard on any part of the body to be a kill. Neck, groin, head, are all legal targets and require a blow hard enough to pierce the armor as I said. Basicly anywhere in the torso and head is a kill. If you are hit in the arm or leg you lose the use of that limb. They do allow you to fight from a kneeling position when you lose a leg, but if you lose a sword arm and are not ambidexterous that is about the end of it for you. This is where you get a chance to win some respect though. It is not required or expected, but many fighters will throw a little mock blow on a matching limb of their own and return the fight to equal parity. Some tournaments award points for chivalry. and sometimes the best prize of a tournament is not the award given for winning it. I have collected a few nice momentos for my honorable actions. It is nothing that is kept track of or anything, but people remember you and I like to think I can beat a man fairly with any handicap imposed. Thrusts need to be landed with the same force, except directly in the face. The minimum spacing for an armored grill or eye slot is 1", since the minimum diameter of a sword can be 1 1/4" it is quite possible a freak accident could occur where your steel cage bent and a powerful thrust might be able to penetrate to the eye area. A face thrust is the only strike that is allowed to be of a lesser force, but only for the sword point a slash across the face still has to have the same power to cut thru chain to be a kill. The SCA is divided into different kingdoms and some outlaw face thrusts all together, which is a somewhat unrealistic approach, but a judgment based on real world safety. After all is said and done we do want to walk away and shake the hands of our noble opponents.

As far as pommel and cross guard punches, you are allowed to design your weapon with this capability. Your shield can be used offensively as well, but any thrusting area has to have compression, in other words a small amount of foam needs to be placed on thrusting tips only and on polearms longer than 7 1/2', this includes the surface edge of any shield to be used offensivly.

Unfortunately there is no gripping the opponent's blade. If you do your arm is considered useless as your hand was just chopped off. No grappling either. You can come up behind an opponent in melee and pin his arms, but it would be considered unchivalrous to throw him to the ground.

I don't think the Fins are big into this sort of thing, which is a shame considering your viking history. I think you will just have to settle for being the best troops fielded in WWII.

[JaronK]

With your left hand, while weilding another with your right? I haven't been training with it as you say, but I'm no weakling either... it's not an easy task!

JaronK

[mfb]

well, sure. if it was easy, everyone'd do it!

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Sesix]

Um, wtf? Butcher knives can not stab, I would like to see one that could, but alas they cant. Chop yes. Stab no. Steak knife can stab, very true. Also the death blow on yer chicken had nothing to do with the weight of the weapon. It was what the weapon was made for, to "chop" the head off of yer chicken. The steak knife would have to be used entirely different to get the kill, thus technique is brought in, not weight of a weapon.