Overpowered Mages and my complaining players, How can I fix this? Options

[FrostyNSO]

I have been GMing my group for a few years now and though we've tried rotating the GMing duties every once in a while, it seems the players just like it better when I GM.

Well I moved about 4 hours away and so I've been coming down for a monthly game lately. During my "off-weeks" one of our group will GM a run for those guys while I'm away.

Before this guy would ever GM, and was just a player, he had already bought all of the books, and would often call into question certain house rules I had implemented to speed up the gameplay when neccessary. This guy insisted on sticking to the rules no matter how much it slowed things down or (some say) 'ruined' the moment.

Anyways, this dude when he GM'ed had given 'my' players access to a clearinghouse-type place (similar to crime mall) which also sported a Delta clinic. He gave them unrealistic NPC's that would supply monofilament whips and heavy weapons. Allowed the players to purchase 1000's of rounds of anti-vehicular ammunition from the crime mall. Paid the players huge sums of nuyen for token runs. And this is things the players got access to after 1 or 2 runs! I have always tried to run a 'work your way to the top' kind of game, where the players had to use their contacts a little more, do more footwork, and when violence was required, to do it in a professional manner. This other guy has blown that all to hell within a few gaming sessions.

Another big thing we've butted heads on is magic and drain. A long time ago, when the group decided mages were a little overpowered, we deviated from the rules in the book (1/2 the spell's force used when calculating drain), and instead decided to use the spell's whole force for drain resistance. This had worked wonders and helped to control players (and NPC's) with boatloads of high-powered spells, without having to crank up the opposition and kill off the weaker members of the group. This guy has 'overturned' this house rule when he GM's and now the players with magic complain when I have them take drain at full force.

The the other players have described this guy's style as 'By the Book'. How can somebody that is by the book offer the nuyen and resources to the players that he does??

I have been able to mitigate his 'damage' by not having certain contacts answer their phones (it goes to voicemail or something), this delta clinic is always locked down with nobody 'home' (this has only pissed off one person), and I've made the players take some 'lower' (but not cheap) paying runs and made them work a little harder for them. But this magic thing is causing huge problems. The players who don't have magic think the house rule is reasonable and they have used mages before also. It is the people playing mages now that are constantly questioning my GMing and mr. by the book is still jumping in to tell me how to run my game.

How can I remedy this situation???

[Dice]

The way we organise our gaming sessions is that each person who GM's runs their own campiagn. So you can run one campaign with one session a month and the other GM can run a different campaign with different characters in it on the other 3 weeks.

And frankly, the drain issue should be done by the book otherwise you risk making mages useless, or capable of only taking out one target quickly then being crippled for the rest of the combat.

Do you begrudge a player with an Assault Rifle/SMG/Shotgun taking out someone with a single action at no harm to themselves? So why begrudge the same of the mage, who at least always *risks* self inflicted injury?

Do you also only subtract the value of a VCR rather than double the value of a VCR off a riggers vehicle task numbers because they are 'overpowered' compared to non-rigger drivers?

Riggers are supposed to be the bee's kneee's when it comes to driving, Sammies when it comes to combat, deckers when it comes to decking, and mages when it comes to casting spells... yet you choose to deliberately make mages less effective at the only thing they do better than others. Just strikes me as a bit harsh.

[FrostyNSO]

Having the mage take a full-force drain doesn't diminish his effectiveness as much as you say it does. Most of the time, the mage doesn't take any drain anyways, it's just when mages start unleashing huge toxic waves and take no drain that things begin to become unbalanced.

As far as any of my characters using automatic weapons and grenades: If they have a reason to use them, the opposition will usually have them too. Using stuff like that in certain venues creates more trouble than it solves (like using a grenade launcher in a nightclub, but it doesn't have to be that drastic). My players pretty much understand this.

When the players' firepower does overmatch the opposition, the opposition will utilize tactics, and sometimes retreat to counter the firepower disparity. In my games, firepower is not so much an issue as what you do with it.

[Glyph]

You should definitely run two separate campaigns. You run a gritty campaign with lots of house rules. He runs "by the book" but very munchkinish (at least going solely by your descriptions). I don't see those two campaign styles as being compatible at all.

I have mixed feelings on that house rule. On the one hand, it's your game and your rules. But on the other hand, as Dice pointed out, it is unfair to certain players who are being singled out for penalties. And increasing Drain affects PCs (who have to get through an entire run) more than it affects NPCs (guards or whatnot who generally only have to worry about getting through that encounter). It doesn't make spells easier to resist or less powerful; it only makes the mage run out of gas earlier.

This guy has no business disrupting your game to argue with you, though. That kind of discussion should wait until after the game.

[FrostyNSO]

We have tried the two campaign thing but it just doesn't seem to work. The players in our group have never really bounced between characters very much and when they have have gotten bored of one or the other (eventually both) due to the lack of continuity.

I rarely have one of my mages 'run out of gas' in the middle of a run. Like I said, most of them take no drain anyways, but when a character unleashes a particularly devastating, area-effect spell, I think it should involve a little more risk. Also, when the mages wipe out all the opposition without anyone else getting to fire a shot, everyone else tends to get a little bummed out from not getting to get in on the action, especially the combat-types.

I would just like for the mages to be a little more conciencious (spellcheck?) with their spellcasting, otherwise I have to start throwing mages at them every run and it starts to get contrived.

[shadd4d]

I'd ask how the mages got this powerful. 1) Maybe you and he should set up some common guidelines between runs, such as growth expectations of characters. Part of this makes me want to say just start over fresh.

There used to be a thread about how to hose mages, using a combos of things. Drones are usually useful, but so are smart tactics that just about any starting mage can pull off.

2) There are other countermeasures. Maybe it might be time to consider gas traps. Background counts are also an idea. High powered runs to places like the SOX or other corp facilities in toxic areas with mana warps.

Just what do the characters actually have? 10-12 spells at force 12? Willpowers of 8+? If so, how did they get there? Do they use a lot of foci? If so, enforce focus addiction if you don't already. Lots of quickened spells? Use lots of wards and other astral barriers. Have watchers attack the spells. Astral mages taking down the spells supported with packs of watchers. A mage feels the spell go down and switches to the astral and gets streetcarred by the watchers (yes, I do know what a streetcar means per Gulag Archipelago).

I think there are other solutions, but could you provide some more information? OTOH, I don't want to end up suggesting things that only seem to run the course of how to screw the magic users and not other players.

Don

[Dice]

[FrostyNSO]

Most of the problem is not so much the power of the mages, they have multiple lvl 5-6 spells, 6 willpower, 6 sorcery.
But the power of the other characters. They are for the most part, talkers and thinkers. They can mix it up, but not nearly on the scale the mages can. The toughest guy (besides the mages) is pretty well skilled and beefy, but with only natuaral attributes, almost no cyberware, no magic. The machineguns and monowhips belong to the mages ( i don't know all the details) who I suspect used their magic to aquire those toys.

All the players like to mix it up a bit but if the opposition is a challenge for the normal characters, they're cake for the mages. If the mages get a challenge, the rest of the team is easily hosed.
I've tried to fix this by splitting up the team, but that get's a little older everytime you do it.

I have 'screwed' the other players by doing stuff like 'automatic weapons fire and explosions draw a little more attention from lonestar' or 'carrying that high-powered cyberdeck through the crimemall gets unwanted attention'

I am just having a lot of trouble with things like 'Toxic wave the whole bar, Toxic wave the cops when they appear, Toxic wave the magical reinforcements' This stuff can be dealt with but sometimes it's hard to do without killing the other characters in the proccess. I have tried suggesting that they get on their comrades for bringing trouble down on their heads, which they do, but the mages don't seem to care. I've tried talking to these guys (who I've known for years upon years so I wouldn't want to ask them to walk) but they only seem to tone it down if they take a box of stun and then they panic and retreat.

[shadd4d]

They're not too powerful (high force is in the upwards of 9-10, but it's a question of perspective).

Besides, the mages are leaving behind astral signatures. At some point, Lone Star will have samples of it, preserved, and try ritual magic to kill or stun the mages. If they've killed cops, then they're already death penalty cases. They'll be needing plastic surgery real soon, but a doc can always sell them out if they're worth it.

Besides, from what you're saying, they roll 6+ dice for casting and then 6+ for drain. Have they thought about spell defense? What happens when another mage does spell defense or takes the opportunity to take down one of the other people? Or what happens when they are influenced or control emotions by someone else? There are some other options. Enforce the consequences.

If they are going first using sustained or foci, then you can attack the spell or the focus and then hit them when they astrally percieve. That will hurt.

What's the drain on toxic wave? Something like (F/2 + 2)+1, I think. That's at least a drain of 7D if cast at deadly.

Something is going on, I just can't put my finger on it.

Don

[FrostyNSO]

One of the problems is also that if I say ok, half-force, and an NPC unleashes a toxic wave and takes no drain everyone has a fit.

The stealth runs work pretty well, we just did an 'undercover' run, but it didn't stop the mages.

These guys (before the run) influenced a bunch of people on the street to give them their credsticks. Their sketches appeared on the news and when a lonestar patrol spotted them, they toxic waved it. (took light drain, then ran away to the barrens)

The rest of the team did great and role-played their way out when things got complicated ( i think mostly because the mages weren't there at the time)

Maybe contrived wasn't the right word for what I meant earlier. Magic is supposed to be rare, so like was said a lot of mom and pop corps don't have access to it. Our runners have been taking street-oriented runs, doing a lot of work for the little guy, and I don't want the team to think that the streets are loaded with mages.

I'm going to try and ramp up into something higher powered by bringing in some vampires (hopefully this doesn't suck) with a decent mage for a leader.

From what I've been getting back, my problem is probably mostly with the players rather than the system.

Maybe I can make area-effect spells use the full force for drain? Or will that inhibit the mages too much?

[FrostyNSO]

I'm going to give that vampire mage 'reflecting' and hopefully that will solve some things.

The astral signiture thing is a good idea that I hadn't thought of. I wasn't aware they could use that in ritual sorcery. I will try that and see how things go, thanks.

[shadd4d]

I think it's a player problem than system (this now presents the question if the guy at the beginning is playing one of the mages...oh the implications).

One basic rule we all tend to forget or wish we could forget is that if a PC can do it, so can an NPC. If they throw a fit, bring out the NPC Mages stats if you've got them (actually, that should really bust their bubble right there, esp. if you're using the NPC rules from the Companion). It's also not that hard to understand. If they got toxic waved by an enemy mage who takes no drain, well...take it like a man (no sexism meant, btw).

I think it might be a problem to discuss outside the game and see what is going on.

The vampires sound interesting. High enough to pulls some strings but also low enough to be believable theats.

There's a lot that can really mess with a mage's day, like visibility, fog, and other things. The kill the mage first tactic is always sound, even if it doesn't work. It does scary the players. Then again, I also tend to run in a style, if the players don't consider things...I don't have to consider their survivability (probably due to playing a lot of Savage Worlds and Deadlands, I suspect).

Don

[shadd4d]

[FrostyNSO]

I am convinced it is a player problem now. For the most part the group is good with considering the consequences of their actions, but the mages are just wild cards, man.
Sometimes, the guy I was talking about before will play a mage, more times than not actually, but he switches characters like the wind blows so I never really thought of it as much of a problem.

[Dice]

Ok, lets assume your mage has Toxic Wave at Force 6, Has Intelligence 6, Willpower 6, Magic 6, Sorcery 6, and a spell pool of 6.

He goes to cast TW at Force 6, Damage D. As its an elemental manipulation AE spell, he rolls Sorcery + Spell pool against a TN of 4 + cover visibility etc as if it were ranged combat. Lets say its a Shadowrunner Bar thats a bit dark, and most patrons being sat at tables etc will have some cover, say +2 for the light and +2 for the cover (for most patrons, there will be some with less cover, some with more). So our mage is looking at 8's to hit.

He will also be resisting drain of 8D himself, the drain code for TW being +1(damage level +2), and per p191 in the BBB "If a modifier wpuld increase the Drain Level above Deadly, add +2 to the Drain Power instead for each level above Deadly"

So his drain is 6/2 = 3 +1, +4 (for the D+2 levels).

If he casts at a lower damage level his drain will be Light 4S, Medium 4D, Serious 6D.

Lets say he splits his spell pool between casting and drain, so 3 on each... He's rolling 9 dice looking for 8's to hit... probably will get 1 net success, maybe 2 with a decent roll. If he rolls *really* well he might get 3. The same applies for his drain resistance.... 9 dice looking for 8's... with a good roll he'll only be seriously stunned and not unconcious with deadly stun...

And the people whom he affected? they are rolling combat pool to dodge looking for 4's, then body and combat pool to resist looking for 6- (half impact (round down)). There is a fair chance that many patrons will dodge out of the way by getting as many successes on their dodge test as the mage did on his attack), and a decent chance for many of them to resist down to serious or even moderate or less if there are trolls or orks there.

He'd probably have been bettr off just throwing a grenade in... would do as much damage (or more) to those inside, plus not hurt the mage... and the legal attention he attracts will hardly be any less than for dissolving a bar full of people...

[TinkerGnome]

You know, personally, I have no objections to the house rules. There are a lot of ways to balance mages, a lot of them aren't convenient for some games, so something like this should work fine since you're obvioulsy applying it across PCs and NPCs. If it works for your game, then stick with it.

Honestly, that looks like a minor issue when you consider the free access to delta clinics and millions of nuyen. First of all, you might find that this game is no longer yours. Having another GM run the main characters through your game world can be done, but not without ground rules. This guy obviously isn't playing by any, and it's probably intentional. It's not like it'd take much to figure out "Hey, I've been playing this campaign for x years, the rewards tend to be y and z for a run".

Personally, what I would do is start a new game just for you to run (with no outside GMs). Make it a Bug City game or the like where you could take a bad situation and stick characters in it and justify the break between games.

The other choice is to battle the other GM directly. With him being there every week and you only once a month, you'll be at a significant disadvantage.

[Cain]

<puts on nitpicker hat>
Sorry Dice, but the bystanders will be rolling against an elevated TN to dodge. The FAQ suggests at least a +2.

[RangerJoe]

This is what gets me:

[Dice]

[Cain]

[TheScamp]

[Kurukami]

Ah, you mean the cultured bioware that they would typically be able to acquire given that they were given access to a delta-grade clinic?

I'm going to have to agree with Frosty. It does sound very much like munchkiny players, but mages have by far been seriously amped up with the half-Force rule. A starting mage might not have quite that ability, but with a tiny bit of karma (and Initiation) they can easily wipe out nearly all opposition with no trouble.

As for penalties, good luck. Unless they're fighting completely in the dark, any metahuman sight bonus will lessen or negate that problem -- and with natural low-light vision available as an Edge pretty cheaply, who wouldn't take it?

Besides which, who bothers to cast things at D-damage? Cast it at S, stage up with successes, spend a Karma Pool point to reroll any failures if it's really necessary... poof, instant toxic sludge where once there were bargoers.

I heartily approve of the full-force drain house rule.

[RedmondLarry]

FrostyNSO, you clearly have a 'people' problem. That's your biggest problem, as others have said. I have often shared a campaign with other GMs, but we agree ahead of time to use the same rules, to jointly agree on house rules, and to jointly set standards for nuyen and karma awards. This works particularly well when there are an odd number of GMs, because we avoid ties when voting. Your "by the book" GM is deliberately challenging your authority and does not sound like someone willing to share a campaign.

I love the earlier suggestion to set up a campaign in Bug City. Other places, like Denver and California might also be good. Print out your rule differences for your players, to remove some of the confusion in playing with different rules during different weeks. Or even play with his rules, to make it easier for your players, but do it in your campaign.

Don't make negative comments about his campaign. Make yours gritty and challenging, where the risk of character death is always present.

Your adjustment to Drain is one that was suggested by FASA years ago for a campaign where magic is toned down. In a game with little cyberware, bioware, or riggers, magic will be overpowering unless it is toned down.

In our campaign, we have chosen to have no more than two PC magicians on a run. This has made it easier for our GMs to create the right level of opposition for us.

[Zazen]

[Moon-Hawk]

It seems to me that the other GM is trying to make the players like him more. You said yourself that everyone preferred it when you GM, and he obviously knows this as well as you do. You gave him an inferiority complex with your "1337 GM 5ki11z".
Two GMs in one campaign isn't going to work with this group. You need to run two campaigns, or someone needs to stop GMing.
These characters seriously need some consequences. You said they considered the consequences of their actions, except for the mages, but are there any consequences for the mages? Are there stories on the news every night about how the psycho-killer is still on the loose? The one with magical powers who slaughters people by the dozen? The cop killer that every Lone Star officer has a hard-on to personally geek? Are their contacts leaving them high and dry because they're too hot to handle? Are there ANY consequences?
Of course, on the other hand, if you start doing that then you're even more the "bad guy meanie poo-head GM".
For the record, I've never found half-force magicians problematic, but I'm not going to give you any drek about house-rules that your group agrees on.