Guardian Angel Nanoware, Have a question about this. Options

[Ol' Scratch]

Considering that they don't come with any of the gear that comes with medkits, and the context for which the entire implant revolves, it's obvious it's intended to work from within on its own. If not, it wouldn't be able to revive you as it clearly does. If not, it wouldn't be able to slow your accumulation of Overdeadly Damage as it clearly does.

Additionally, one of the functions of a medkit is that it can produce an antidote on demand. Are we to believe that a Nano-Biomonitor (not just the Guardian Angel which is a brand name) does this, then ejects a syringe that the user then has to inject back into himself?

[mfb]

*shrug* i'm just pointing out the rules. yes, i'm aware they don't make sense--but that's never stopped an SR rule before.

personally, i'd go with the sane ruling, and say GAs do all the work themselves. however, if you insist on running around and shit while it's working (remember, it takes base 5 combat rounds just to heal an L), it will be less effective--poor or terrible condition modifiers.

[Ol' Scratch]

That's how it should be. "Terrible Conditions" is completely appropriate if its functioning in the middle of a fight, and "Bad Conditions" is any place outside of a hospital or other sterile environment.

[The White Dwarf]

Well, thanks for replying before I posted more, I wanted to see why rather than try to tell everyone what I thought. Incedently, heres why I asked.

It seems rather imbalancing that it would autoheal its user. This is what prompted me to question the fact. Whatever SR is, 90% of the time its very well balanced relative to similar things within it self.

So, I read the Guardian Angel entry on p. 91 M&M. It states the following:
-The nano versions are upgrades to the biomonitor listed on p. 25-6 M&M
-Its "programmed with specific trauma control functions"
-It functions as a Rating 6 medkit with a -2 tn mod
-It attempts to revive you if you fall unconcious
-It attempts to stabilize you in you reach deadly

Ok, so you get a rating 6 medkit with a -2 tn mod, that is specifically listed with 2 additional trauma control functions. That is what it says. The obvious assumption is that it tries to biotech you... but Im confident this is just that, an assumption.

I continued reading and checked the Biomonitor entry on p.25-6 M&M, and read:
-It acts as biotech skill 5 to "identify health threats and determine a course of action"
-This function is specifically mentioned in simili, "Like a medkit..."

Ok, so this one is only a rating 5 medkit with no tn mod, and is specifically listed as having no additionl operations other than those "like a medkit".

The obvious next step was to read up on medkits, p136-8 M&M, where:
-"They consist of basic medical sensors, reference programs, and general drugs"
-"[They] allow a user to treat a single patient at a time"
-If used by a character without biotech, they provide the skill at their rating
-If used by a character with biotech, they provide complementary dice at their rating
-"In either case, medkits do not function independantly; they require a living user to follow instructions and undertake tasks"

My Conclusions:
-A regular medkit doesnt operate on its own.
-A character cannot use a regular medkit on themselves, as they require a user and a patient to function
-The Biomonitor cyberware works like a regular medkit, but is rating 5; its only viable patient is the character posessing the implant. It still requires another person as the "user" to apply the first aid.
-The Guardian Angel works like Biomonitor, which in turn works like a regular medkit. Its a rating 6 medkit, with a -2tn mod, and its only viable patient is the character possessing the implant.
-The Guardian Angel is specifically mentioned as being able to operate autonomysly for two operations: reviving if unconcious, and stablizing at deadly. This is unlike all previously mentioned entries for all medkits.

Its my belief that the "specific trauma control functions" stated in the general text are limited to the 2 actions described. Theyre the only given exception to the entire medkit rules, and are specifically referenced twice as such.

Furthermore, if you presume this one works automatically, then all the other implanted medkit 'wares would likewise need that capability. Otherwise this one would be subject to special treatment, simply because you assume so, for theres nothing stating that and a lot stating otherwise.

As to making sense, its not that unrealisitc to have the nano-versions capable of limited trauma ability (remember these are tiny nanodrones already constantly monitoring the body, having to take even limited actions is their limit). Also, its not that unrealistic for you to be unable to use a medkit on yourself (if you get shot, its rather hard to do things like apply pressure and such yourself; even in Ronin while DeNiro got the bullet out he still needed 2 other people to assist him in doing so and finish stitching).

The only catch is this: what would a person assisting an implanted medkit, with no other tools, really do to help? Push a button? Make a selection on a menu? Watch flashing lights? They could do things like apply pressure and such, but without any tools or materials they would be useless. My assumption here is that the characters posessino these implants would need to carry around the same "medical materials" that all medkits use. Basically a smaller first aid kit. This would allow those helping them to have things like a small splint, some thread, a syringe, and bandages on hand. Which solves the problem. Making antidotes could be likewise handled, the nano section specifically mentions how the implants only carry small amounts of supplies in gel form; perhaps the drones could make an antidote but youd have to add the base components on the spot.

What do you all think?

[Ol' Scratch]

[mfb]

i think it's too complex to be the default assumption. if you were required to carry around a medkit in order for the GA to work, it would state that in the description. my stance here is somewhat divided, i suppose: i agree with you, that if you're following the letter of the rules, you have to do the gruntwork of the first aid yourself. what that gruntwork might be, and what materials you'd use to perform it, i don't know. the details are left up to the GMs who follow the letter of the rules, in this case.

it seems more likely that the writers intended the GA to actually perform the first aid itself, via nanites (clotting opened blood vessels, releasing painkillers, etc.), simply because of the way the GA is described; if it can stabilize and revive you with no outside help, it doesn't seem like a huge leap to think it can also perform first aid on you with no outside help.

[Capt. Dave]

[The White Dwarf]

Id rather not use the nuyen cost or essence cost to justify anything in this game. Seriously, if we went that route Id have to burn every equipment listing published and write my own. In its defense tho, it is cutting edge tech thats not mass marketed and availabile in only specialized areas.

The other nano-medkit is a good comparison. Its 1 essence and 100,000 nuyen base. Comparing the price after street index isnt exactly fair either, the base list is only 130,000. If you want to figure out end cost to a character youd have to add in the negotiations and surrounding situation of getting it, and theres no way to do that without specific game details.

My point was that, if you make the assumption for that implanted medkit, you sorta need to make the same assumption for all implanted medkits. Because theyre listed as being exactly the same, with the exact same mechanics, and most of the same descriptions and functions (except as specified above). I mean in the Game Effects forr them it even says "theyre advanced versions of the basic biomonitor" and references the subsytems under that entry in the cyber section. Doesnt get much more cut n paste than that.

And I do think it would be a balance killer... Free Biotech skill (from any of these sources) is already a huge boon. Consider, any team with 1 magician casting Heal/Treat and 1 biotech device can heal from a Serious wound all the way to a Light within minutes. The *whole team* could get shot up to 9 boxes during a run, and escape to the safehouse. Then they could all biotech each other (for no karma or skill investment, just the paltry medkit/supply costs) down to the previous damage level, Moderate, at 3 boxes. Then the mage could heal folks, getting them down into light.

If a Sam could lower his damage level every few minutes while on a run, it would be really freaking hard to kill him. So much so that any well built sam would be almost invincible. You can get around the essence cost with a small cyberlimb, and gain more space for other things while youre at it.

[FrostyNSO]

Glad somebody mentioned the savior...the savior is the nano-medkit, not the GA

[Zeel De Mort]

I'd completely agree that nowhere does it specifically say that the GA will do first aid on you, but the points Doc Funk just made totally hold true as well. For the large essence and nuyen cost, as well as SI and availability, I'd expect it to do quite a lot. I mean it's pretty nice as it is, all those extra functions and -2 tn and all the rest of it, but it doesn't seem like quite enough to me.

As you say, the fact that it's nanotech can easily be used to explain why it is able to actually heal you while others biomonitors can't.

Incidentally, what's everyone's stance on the CrashCart version? If you say neither of them can do any first aid (as in healing).. then that one is pretty much no better than the standard biomonitor, neh? Okay it's rating 5, but other than that, as listed, it does nothing more than the standard biomonitor, and yet it costs and assload more in essence and nuyen. That, again, leads me to assume that it has some extra function, if only for game balance.

[The White Dwarf]

Well, its legal, and better. The fact that (at the time the book was put out) it was cutting edge is the only real explaination for the cost. As for the essence, they all include the 0.7 essence hive which is the explaination of that. See my above post for the rest.

As an aside, other Military things like the Ares Assualt Rifle are all SI 4 if memory serves. Im thinking that, as a military device, the GA has SI 4. Thats probably why thats there, along with the availaiblity listing.

[mfb]

you can perform other tasks. the GA will take a Bad or Terrible condition modifier to its first aid roll, but you can do it.

the advantages of the GA over the Savior are many. a GA is constantly monitoring and updating you on your condition--been poisoned? the GA will let you know instantly, and will probably be able to tell you what toxin, while you're busy dealing with the paranormal that poisoned you. a GA is always with you--no worries about leaving it in the car, or dropping it during a firefight. the Savior only provides a -1 TN to first aid tests. the Savior doesn't automatically attempt to stabilize you if you pass D damage, nor does it reduce your overflow damage by half, nor does it automatically attempt to revive you if you fall unconscious.

[Ol' Scratch]

[Zeel De Mort]

So if you opt for the CrashCart Med-Alert over the standard Biomonitor, the ONLY advantage you get is +1 to the Biotech skill of the biomonitor?

That's in exchange for 134,500Y, 0.4 essence, -1 signature, and losing one of the maximum of two free-floating nanosystems you can have? This is assuming you take all the trimmings for your standard biomonitor.

Seems like kinda a bum deal to me. On the whole I'd say SR sticks to game balance fairly doggedly, too much so if you ask me, so those kinda figures definately persuade me that the GA can do more.

[Cochise]

[The White Dwarf]

Cochise, a medkit is stated as requiring a "user" and a "patient". I didnt make that up. And I quoted it (hence the quotation marks) straight out of the relevent, notated, section. Thats why [-"In either case, medkits do not function independantly; they require a living user to follow instructions and undertake tasks"] was written. Its not the only relvent part, go read the section. Its there. That addresses a lot of your points.

As far as trying to draw a line between medkits and biomonitors and nano-medkits and whatever else, there isnt one. They all refer to the same rules section, all the way back to the medkit section. The basic medkit gear item gives biotech 3, the cyber biomonitor gives biotech 5, the savior 6, the crash cart 6, and the guardian angel 6. They all use the same rules, with appropriate tn mods, and to the appropriate people (ie, if the cyber is implanted in me, it only gives people biotech skill to use on me). This is also clearly stated in the relevent text.

My only assumption was: since it requires some other individual to apply the skill to the person having the implants, it would make sense they would need the materials on hand to do so; and it was based on logic alone. The rules state everything else I wrote. The nanites themselves could have limited supplies for its 2 specific functions, the nanite section specifically states they carry limited materials in gel form.

Go read those parts again in M&M, and post again. Its all there in black and white.

Peoples argument for it working automatically are:
-the essence cost (which again is inflated because it includes a 0.7 essence hive; and can mostly be avoided with a small, lower essence cyberlimb containing the implant)
-the nuyen cost (which as other items have proved isnt always a good indicator or marker; coupled with the fact this is supposed to be cutting edge military tech).
-its nanoware, its automatically uber and can do everything, even tho the only rules referenced by the item itself state otherwise

Aside from the costs of obtaining this, and the fact that its nanoware and thus seems subject to a totally different level of capability ... what reason would there be? None that I can see, thus I reiterate that it works the way I stated.

[Ol' Scratch]

You left out the last argument:
- That the Savior Advanced Medkit is worded exactly the same way in the Games Rules section: "The Savior is a Rating 6 medkit and follows all the normal rules for medkits (see p. 136). It also provides a -1 target number modifier for Biotech (First Aid) and Body Tests to stabilize."

But, according to you, and despite the associated fluff text, that doesn't mean jack. It still doesn't work on its own even though the fluff text explicitly states otherwise. The only difference here is that it goes into a little more detail to explain what it does after it diagonoses the problem, whereas the Nano-Biomonitors don't bother to do so because they assume their readers are intelligent enough to assume that's the entire point in a 520,000 nuyen 1.2 Essence implant.

[FrostyNSO]

Dwarf if I didn't know any better I'd SWEAR you were one of my players =)

Cochise, Nice Post.

[Cain]

Ok, here's one thing y'all missed. It's possible to implant a Savior medkit, or any other medkit, into a cyberlimb at 4x base cost-- so for the Savior, it'd cost all of 6000 :nuyen:. Now, what would be the difference between implanting that, and implanting the hideously-expensive GA medkit? There has to be some advantage to the GA.

Now, one way of getting around this is to say that the Savior also needs a biomonitor routed to it, and DNI-adapted to work "by thought". The GA does not, and has an additional -1TN.

[The White Dwarf]

Funk:

[mfb]

okay, both the "GA requires an external user" premise and the "GA performs first aid on its own" premise require assumptions that are not spelled out in the rules. the question is, which assumption is simpler.

the "GA requires an external user" premise assumes that the implantee, or someone, is carrying around medical supplies. it assumes that the GA is capable of performing enough first-aid to keep someone from dying, but is incapable of performing enough first-aid to get someone back into the fight (despite the fact that keeping someone from dying is much harder). it assumes that people are willing to spend more money and essence on a medkit than they would for a cyberlimb with several points of Strength and Quickness increase.

the "GA performs first aid on its own" premise assumes that nanites can clot blood.

[FrostyNSO]

It had nothing to do with what you said, but how you say it...I'll leave it at that.

[Ol' Scratch]

[Ol' Scratch]

[How did that happen?]

[Shockwave_IIc]

OK, i haven't read the rules in M&M simply because you've said you've post/quoted the rules yourself.[EDIT] Thats i lie, cos i did[/EDIT]