cheap, free spells?, it's cheap, but is there a 'rule'? Options

[Cold-Dragon]

I noticed that, if you go and take something like exclusive or feitsh for a lvl 2 or 1 spell (respectively) You could effectively have all the spells on the list free (excluding the ones you want at higher levels).

Yes, it IS cheap, but they'd only work in special circumstance and at weakling level. (and in case you think otherwise, I'm the storyteller guy). How absurd would you call that? or would you say it's not neccessarily absurd? To my knowledge there's nothing specific denying you the option (though I have to re-read most of the book so far, so I could have missed it), and if you want the spell at respectable level, you'd have to relearn it anyways.

So, what say you all?

[Kanada Ten]

Been discussed, twice even. However, it is also covered in the FAQ. Apparently not covered in the FAQ, but Rob has answered saying "Some GMs will say no, but I think a few 'Cantrips' are ok."

This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Aug 13 2004, 01:27 AM

[Cold-Dragon]

*ahhs, and erfs* guess I should have done a search. thanks

[Kanada Ten]

Try this thread.

[Fonitrus]

Cheap? do u mean gamewise cheap way to learmn spells or do u mean cheap as in 'exploiting rules to get things done your way'.

(casting with fetish)
Force 1 spell cast with fetish is by rules Force 0 in terms for drain.
However since no target number ingame can be lower than 2 the drain code is still TN2.

(learning with fetish)
as for learning a Force 1 spell with a fetish the base TN of 2 (force x 2) is still TN2 iregardless ofthe fetish.
the usual cost would be 1 karma but fetish drops this to lvl0..now there is no such thing as free lunch in shadowrun so u still pay 1 karma.

there is only few (easily available to a mage at chargen) spells that most people dont take past lvl1...but most other spell you would be a fool to take at lvl1 (eg armour, phys barier, etc etc)

now since u cannot use fetish or exclusive at chargen to reduce the cost of the spell most people chose either to play unlimited or fetish-limit powerfull spells for drain...force 6 yes..force 5 waste...force 4 yes..force 3 waste..force 2 yes...u get the idea....
fetish limiting force 7 is also a waste but fetish limiting lvl 8 spells is great...

thats what i think anyway...

[Ol' Scratch]

I've always allowed them, but then again I tend to play with reasonable players who don't try to abuse the rules. While you can say you start the game knowing every spell in the game with both a Fetish and Exclusive limitation (then only bother buying the fetishes for the spells you plan to use), that's just lame and any sensible GM would smack the player upside the head.

But then again the same is true if you start the game with a character with the Connected (Biotech) edge and 2,000 Trauma Patches (SI 4), then proceeds to spend the first ten minutes of game time selling and buying them a few dozen times over to the same contact. The rules allow it, and the rules allow him to net a huge fortune doing so; roughly a net gain of 1,000,000 nuyen per trade, not including any boosts due to Negotiations or other abuses of the rules.

Does that mean players shouldn't be able to buy or sell Trauma Patches or have the Connected (Biotech) edge? No. It means GMs should smack players upside the head for abusing the game.

When designing a magician, I typically pick about (Magic Attribute) number of free "cantrips" for the character whether PC or NPC. I consider them minor utilitarian spells that any magician would likely have learned if given the opportunity. Spells like Healthy Glow, Detox, Fashion, Makeover, and Create Food are other spells along those lines are the ones I usually pick.

[Cain]

As others have pointed out, there's no rule prohibiting it. However, unlike what Doc may have accidentally implied, you cannot both fetish- and exclusive- limit a spell for cost; and there's no real reason to take both on a "cantrip"-- generally, the drain will be negligiable to begin with.

The only place where this might become a problem is the famous Force 1 Increase Reflexes +3, taken with fetish for cost and with a sustaining focus. Given the costs involved, however, I don't find it to be an excessive problem.

[Ol' Scratch]

Yes you can, though I admit I didn't clarify in my last post. I meant you learn all spells at Force 1 with a Fetish limitation, and then learn them all again at Force 2 with the Exclusive limitation (and hell, why not, learn them all again at Force 2 with Exclusive for cost and Fetish for drain). That's what I was referring to, not a Force 3 spell reduced to 0 Karma for cost.

[Glyph]

I would disallow zero-cost spells on general principle, but I don't think it's game-breaking if a GM allows a few "cantrips". There are all kinds of technically legal ways to create a broken or cheesy character - that's why GM approval is the final step in character creation.


Fonitrus: Actually, you can start out with spells that have the fetish or exclusive modifier for lowered cost. Look on page 60 of the main rulebook, where they use purchasing spells for the Combat Mage archetype as an example.

[lacemaker]

I would disallow it for the following reasons:

First, because using the loophole reasonably relies on some kind of unspoken understanding between players and GM as to what a fair quantity of "free" spells is - that will be hard to maintain and make it hard to treat all players equally. Gradually numbers of free spell will sneak upwards.

Second, because low force spells aren't a very close analouge for low level spells in other systems. Low force spells can actually be quite powerful and useful, and there's nothing about the proposal that limits it to flavour-adding "utility" type spells like healthy glow.

The third is a bit more idiosyncratic; even in a situation like that Doc Funk describes, where this rule is just used to add a small quantity of "low power" (as well as low force) spells to the standard character I think it tends to have an impact on game tone. I tend to think character features that are paid for tend to be valued higher and play more of a role in character conception that those that come for free. By handing out fashion and lifestyle spells out as standard (in effect) to every magical character you remove them as a meaningful character choice - players don't have to say "instead of adding an area effect attack spell I'm going to pick up some spells that will add to my character's style and come in handy in role playing type situations", instead they build their mage as normal and take the standard allocation of "flavour magic". I think when players don't sacrifice anything to have those abilities they don't value them, and there's no pressure on the GM to incorporate them into the game. I like the idea of a player deciding to focus a chunk of their capabilities on looking good, but it has to be a meaningful choice. This is a highly personal view I know, and with the right group it won't matter - but in my experience it makes a real difference to how characters are designed and played.

[JaronK]

I think allowing a number of cantrips equal to the mage's sorcery skill, or possibly magic rating, is a great idea. They can work something like knowledge skills do currently... they're not nearly as powerful, but you might as well take them, and you can often find that they help flesh out the character. This way, after you've chosen your serious spells (Force 6 Stunball, Force 6 Treat, etc) you can take 6 or so Cantrips to flesh out the character a bit (a cat shaman might take Fetished Healthy Glow, Exclusive Entertainment, and a few others). The GM could stop you from taking super powerful spells as Cantrips (Improved Reflexes +3 comes to mind there), but otherwise I think it's a nice idea.

JaronK

[toturi]

I allow any Free spells as such, not only because the rules say you can but also it doesn't have much impact on the game anyway. A Force 2 fireball? OK, so you set that pile of paper on fire, big fragging deal. A Force 2 Heal? Huh? A Force 2 Armour? OK, but what's the point?

[tjn]

[Kagetenshi]

[BitBasher]

[Kagetenshi]

[Sahandrian]

I actually like mages to have a few force 2 exclusive spells, as a player and as a GM. They're rarely worthwhile for anything other than flavor aspects.

I think the best example in my group is a parrot shaman I play when not GMing. She does a lot of things with her hair that would take far too long to be practical normally, like braiding tinsel into her hair. So she has a Force 2 exclusive Makeover spell to handle that.

I don't want to look for her character sheet right now, but I think she had most of the spells DF mentioned as F2 Exclusive, too.

[Fonitrus]

[Glyph]

Actually, I was agreeing with you on the "freebie" spell part. I was just pointing out that you can take the fetish or exclusive modifiers for spell cost at char-gen. This does NOT imply that you can lower the cost to zero and get "free" spells. It's not specifically prohibited by the rules, but personally I think that's because it should be common sense.

[tisoz]

[Kanada Ten]

You are affecting the Targets, which are those that observe the Subject which is whom the spell is cast upon.

Technological devices never resist any spell, but any spell must have a force equal to or higher than half the OR to affect it.

If you really want the Subject to be the Target for Indirect Illusions then the force must be so high to affect their clothing and gear, ect.

[Ol' Scratch]

These spells always gave me a headache. :)

[Kagetenshi]

[Kanada Ten]

The drain is not too bad as long as you make it an Illusion spell - a Direct Illusion. Although an Indirect Analgesic spell would be cool too. Everyone around the subject is relived of minor aches and pains, or so they think...

[GrinderTheTroll]