I noticed that, if you go and take something like exclusive or feitsh for a lvl 2 or 1 spell (respectively) You could effectively have all the spells on the list free (excluding the ones you want at higher levels).

Yes, it IS cheap, but they'd only work in special circumstance and at weakling level. (and in case you think otherwise, I'm the storyteller guy). How absurd would you call that? or would you say it's not neccessarily absurd? To my knowledge there's nothing specific denying you the option (though I have to re-read most of the book so far, so I could have missed it), and if you want the spell at respectable level, you'd have to relearn it anyways.

So, what say you all?

Been discussed, twice even. However, it is also covered in the FAQ. Apparently not covered in the FAQ, but Rob has answered saying "Some GMs will say no, but I think a few 'Cantrips' are ok."

*ahhs, and erfs* guess I should have done a search. thanks

Try this thread.

Cheap? do u mean gamewise cheap way to learmn spells or do u mean cheap as in 'exploiting rules to get things done your way'.

(casting with fetish)
Force 1 spell cast with fetish is by rules Force 0 in terms for drain.
However since no target number ingame can be lower than 2 the drain code is still TN2.

(learning with fetish)
as for learning a Force 1 spell with a fetish the base TN of 2 (force x 2) is still TN2 iregardless ofthe fetish.
the usual cost would be 1 karma but fetish drops this to lvl0..now there is no such thing as free lunch in shadowrun so u still pay 1 karma.

there is only few (easily available to a mage at chargen) spells that most people dont take past lvl1...but most other spell you would be a fool to take at lvl1 (eg armour, phys barier, etc etc)

now since u cannot use fetish or exclusive at chargen to reduce the cost of the spell most people chose either to play unlimited or fetish-limit powerfull spells for drain...force 6 yes..force 5 waste...force 4 yes..force 3 waste..force 2 yes...u get the idea....
fetish limiting force 7 is also a waste but fetish limiting lvl 8 spells is great...

thats what i think anyway...

I've always allowed them, but then again I tend to play with reasonable players who don't try to abuse the rules. While you can say you start the game knowing every spell in the game with both a Fetish and Exclusive limitation (then only bother buying the fetishes for the spells you plan to use), that's just lame and any sensible GM would smack the player upside the head.

But then again the same is true if you start the game with a character with the Connected (Biotech) edge and 2,000 Trauma Patches (SI 4), then proceeds to spend the first ten minutes of game time selling and buying them a few dozen times over to the same contact. The rules allow it, and the rules allow him to net a huge fortune doing so; roughly a net gain of 1,000,000 nuyen per trade, not including any boosts due to Negotiations or other abuses of the rules.

Does that mean players shouldn't be able to buy or sell Trauma Patches or have the Connected (Biotech) edge? No. It means GMs should smack players upside the head for abusing the game.

When designing a magician, I typically pick about (Magic Attribute) number of free "cantrips" for the character whether PC or NPC. I consider them minor utilitarian spells that any magician would likely have learned if given the opportunity. Spells like Healthy Glow, Detox, Fashion, Makeover, and Create Food are other spells along those lines are the ones I usually pick.

As others have pointed out, there's no rule prohibiting it. However, unlike what Doc may have accidentally implied, you cannot both fetish- and exclusive- limit a spell for cost; and there's no real reason to take both on a "cantrip"-- generally, the drain will be negligiable to begin with.

The only place where this might become a problem is the famous Force 1 Increase Reflexes +3, taken with fetish for cost and with a sustaining focus. Given the costs involved, however, I don't find it to be an excessive problem.

Yes you can, though I admit I didn't clarify in my last post. I meant you learn all spells at Force 1 with a Fetish limitation, and then learn them all again at Force 2 with the Exclusive limitation (and hell, why not, learn them all again at Force 2 with Exclusive for cost and Fetish for drain). That's what I was referring to, not a Force 3 spell reduced to 0 Karma for cost.

I would disallow zero-cost spells on general principle, but I don't think it's game-breaking if a GM allows a few "cantrips". There are all kinds of technically legal ways to create a broken or cheesy character - that's why GM approval is the final step in character creation.


Fonitrus: Actually, you can start out with spells that have the fetish or exclusive modifier for lowered cost. Look on page 60 of the main rulebook, where they use purchasing spells for the Combat Mage archetype as an example.

I would disallow it for the following reasons:

First, because using the loophole reasonably relies on some kind of unspoken understanding between players and GM as to what a fair quantity of "free" spells is - that will be hard to maintain and make it hard to treat all players equally. Gradually numbers of free spell will sneak upwards.

Second, because low force spells aren't a very close analouge for low level spells in other systems. Low force spells can actually be quite powerful and useful, and there's nothing about the proposal that limits it to flavour-adding "utility" type spells like healthy glow.

The third is a bit more idiosyncratic; even in a situation like that Doc Funk describes, where this rule is just used to add a small quantity of "low power" (as well as low force) spells to the standard character I think it tends to have an impact on game tone. I tend to think character features that are paid for tend to be valued higher and play more of a role in character conception that those that come for free. By handing out fashion and lifestyle spells out as standard (in effect) to every magical character you remove them as a meaningful character choice - players don't have to say "instead of adding an area effect attack spell I'm going to pick up some spells that will add to my character's style and come in handy in role playing type situations", instead they build their mage as normal and take the standard allocation of "flavour magic". I think when players don't sacrifice anything to have those abilities they don't value them, and there's no pressure on the GM to incorporate them into the game. I like the idea of a player deciding to focus a chunk of their capabilities on looking good, but it has to be a meaningful choice. This is a highly personal view I know, and with the right group it won't matter - but in my experience it makes a real difference to how characters are designed and played.

I think allowing a number of cantrips equal to the mage's sorcery skill, or possibly magic rating, is a great idea. They can work something like knowledge skills do currently... they're not nearly as powerful, but you might as well take them, and you can often find that they help flesh out the character. This way, after you've chosen your serious spells (Force 6 Stunball, Force 6 Treat, etc) you can take 6 or so Cantrips to flesh out the character a bit (a cat shaman might take Fetished Healthy Glow, Exclusive Entertainment, and a few others). The GM could stop you from taking super powerful spells as Cantrips (Improved Reflexes +3 comes to mind there), but otherwise I think it's a nice idea.

JaronK

I allow any Free spells as such, not only because the rules say you can but also it doesn't have much impact on the game anyway. A Force 2 fireball? OK, so you set that pile of paper on fire, big fragging deal. A Force 2 Heal? Huh? A Force 2 Armour? OK, but what's the point?

I actually like mages to have a few force 2 exclusive spells, as a player and as a GM. They're rarely worthwhile for anything other than flavor aspects.

I think the best example in my group is a parrot shaman I play when not GMing. She does a lot of things with her hair that would take far too long to be practical normally, like braiding tinsel into her hair. So she has a Force 2 exclusive Makeover spell to handle that.

I don't want to look for her character sheet right now, but I think she had most of the spells DF mentioned as F2 Exclusive, too.

Actually, I was agreeing with you on the "freebie" spell part. I was just pointing out that you can take the fetish or exclusive modifiers for spell cost at char-gen. This does NOT imply that you can lower the cost to zero and get "free" spells. It's not specifically prohibited by the rules, but personally I think that's because it should be common sense.

You are affecting the Targets, which are those that observe the Subject which is whom the spell is cast upon.

Technological devices never resist any spell, but any spell must have a force equal to or higher than half the OR to affect it.

If you really want the Subject to be the Target for Indirect Illusions then the force must be so high to affect their clothing and gear, ect.

These spells always gave me a headache.

The drain is not too bad as long as you make it an Illusion spell - a Direct Illusion. Although an Indirect Analgesic spell would be cool too. Everyone around the subject is relived of minor aches and pains, or so they think...

For a lightly-cybered individual (4.* Essence), you're looking at a TN of 6 for a reasonable expectation of 2 successes by most non-health-twinked mages.

Force 2 for free is reasonably powerful.

~J

Bah, 2 boxes aint jack squat for healing, especially on larger wound sets you'd be wasting the potential for a larger healing spell on a sure 2-box cure, IMO.

But since you're decently unlikely to do more than 2 boxes no matter the force of the spell...

~J

You're still going to need a higher force spell to heal the non-cybered members of the team though, such as yourself. You can always cast a force 6 Heal at force 2, but you can't cast a force 2 Heal at force 6.

As well, most intelligent people will be doing first aid beforehand, which will almost always bring you down to a M or L wound. 2-3 boxes is really all you'll need most of the time. The only times you'll need to do more is when A) first aid fails, or B) the guy ends up in Overflow land. At those points you're usually just trying to keep your guy from dealing with a Deadly wound; the rest he'll probably have to heal on his own.

Either way, though, Kagetenshi's condition will apply. Unless you're healing someone with a full 6 Essence, you're not likely to ever get more than 2-3 boxes, even if you put all your spell pool into the casting. And then you have to worry about the monster drain from a F6 Heal... ugh.

You're not targeting tech directly with illusions, so you don't roll for OR (or at least not with phantasm and similar, Chaos might be exception). You always roll against 4 +any relevant modifiers. The whole resisting check is to see whether or not you can perceive they're not real. Since a camera shows what it shows, and has no mind to perceive through it, they automatically fail.

You're not understanding the ruling, Cold-Dragon.

No rolls are required. The spell *must* have a Force *equal* to more than one-half the OR of the target in order to affect it. It's a flat, standard rule. If the spell's Force isn't high enough to affect it, the spell has no effect whatsoever. No rolls required. It's a bare minimum requirement.

In. ORDER. to AFFECT. IT!

that's assuming you cast a spell ON the object in question. that's perfectly accurate for a combat spell or a manipulation spell and anything that targets the camera, but an illusion does not apply.

An illusion merely creates an image that can be seen physically; a camera will see you make a dragon or a stripper or yourself waving to it, just as any other being would. The illusion's target is what it creates.

The camera, having a visible sensor that transmit/records what it sees, picks up the image, but since it has no method to determine it's fake or not, shows it to anyone watching the video feed or who watches the recording later.

If it didn't work this way, then how would a person explain that they were chasing a trespasser, when all the cameras show him just running? That literally botches the spell in favor of the SR's when it comes to confusing the enemy (unless of course, they use a high level spell just so they can baffle the camera, in which case they may as well just walk up to it themselves.

I can understand a weak spell frequently being looked through by a person, but not with a camera.

I agree to OR for purposes of targeting and affecting, not for convenience of being in range. and I'm WELL aware of the rules for minimum force to affect a nonliving target too.

And here's your next mistake.

Spells like most Indirect Illusions are cast on a SUBJECT and affect TARGETS. (Improved) Invisibility is one such spell. It makes the subject invisible, and anything that could witness that subject is the target. If the spell is incapable of affecting that target -- guess what. It has no effect on that target.

So if a camera has an OR of 8, an Improved Invisibility spell with a Force of 3 or lower won't have any effect against it. End of story, the camera spots them as per the standard rules because the spell didn't have the mojo to affect it anymore than a light pistol has the Power to penetrate a tank's ten-inch thick armor. It's not a matter of being "looked through" by the camera so much as "just not affecting" the camera.

If the Force is 4 or higher, the camera is affected and thus doesn't see the target since it doesn't get to resist the spell. Again, end of story, the camera doesn't spot them.

fine then, I'll stay out of my own topic or whatever. I can understand the basis, but I can't see how what I said doesn't make sense, even if it is potentially wrong.

ciao

Certainly, but that still means that allowing Force 1 or 2 spells to be free with either Fetish or Exclusive is broken.

I'm not arguing that Heal is an exception. That's the point.

~J

It's only broken if you allow it to be. Allowing anyone capable of using Sorcery to have a handful of low-Force spells for free is no more broken than allowing everyone to have free Language and Knowledge Skills. It's no more broken than allowing everyone to start the game with 3D6*100 nuyen in free equipment or cash. It's no more broken than allowing characters to buy equipment without Street Index or surgical costs during character creation. It's no more broken than... just about anything else in the game.

It's all about perspective. If you're hellbent on believing that it's broken, then it's going to be broken no matter what anyone has to say.

Correction: allowing it unrestrictedly is broken.

Though I'm not going to implement it, I could see a limited number of "background magic" allowed, but there would be some extra things necessary: specifically, a background/language skill-like limiter (Magic*n in unadjusted force or somesuch) and either a limitation in the types of spells chosen (or the number of certain types) or the recognition that mages are going to get a fair bit more powerful and versatile.

And as for starting cash and lack of SI: that's true across all archetypes. This only applies for mages, and as such has the potential to make them more powerful than other character types, something that isn't the case for other things you mentioned, which affect everyone.

~J

I'm against freebie spells of several reasons:

As mentioned before low-force spell can be effective

I don't think they add flavor, when they are free. I like like the thougt that the vain elven seductress shaman has make-over, healthy glow and fashion, but the troll combatmage and the ratshaman has not. If they are spells every awakened have, they becomes boring. Instead hand-out some extra spell points, if you think they are underpowered, but do it to everyone, and make it a choice if you want flavorspells, or rather a extra killerspell.

If you give your mages freebie spells, does the sammy get free toys too? what about free cosmetic bioware... (or maybe not, since sammies tends to need both essence and bioindex). But follow my point, I don't like some archetypes get things for free, but others do not

Kagetenshi:

It's under magic regarding non-living targets, as well as elemental manipulation spells.

And as to impolite discussion, I wouldnt' say Funk was impolite (I was on that last comment, but I didn't flame or anything, just made it smart-assed because it's a stressful day today). I just felt Funk's dead-determined idea that I'm wrong is annoying. I can understand the concept, it makes sense, but mine made sense too, and thus far, there's no real definite answer to either.

and Funk: I don't count the whole "OR" as a valid reason. It's valid for direct spells, but I'm still questionable about the indirect. My example is all the detection spells that have anything to do with objects. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they all state OR? in their TN category? Illusions never states a thing about it, and the only spell there that directly affects technology is Chaos IMO.

OR doesn't affect the TN of illusion spells, but it does affect the Force necessary to affect it.

~J