 cheap, free spells?, it's cheap, but is there a 'rule'? |
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 Aug 16 2004, 06:44 PM
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#26
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
For a lightly-cybered individual (4.* Essence), you're looking at a TN of 6 for a reasonable expectation of 2 successes by most non-health-twinked mages.
Force 2 for free is reasonably powerful. ~J |
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Aug 16 2004, 08:09 PM
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#27
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Bah, 2 boxes aint jack squat for healing, especially on larger wound sets you'd be wasting the potential for a larger healing spell on a sure 2-box cure, IMO.
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Aug 16 2004, 08:13 PM
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#28
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But since you're decently unlikely to do more than 2 boxes no matter the force of the spell...
~J |
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Aug 16 2004, 08:23 PM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 12-August 04 Member No.: 6,558 |
You're still going to need a higher force spell to heal the non-cybered members of the team though, such as yourself. You can always cast a force 6 Heal at force 2, but you can't cast a force 2 Heal at force 6.
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Aug 16 2004, 08:23 PM
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#30
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
As well, most intelligent people will be doing first aid beforehand, which will almost always bring you down to a M or L wound. 2-3 boxes is really all you'll need most of the time. The only times you'll need to do more is when A) first aid fails, or B) the guy ends up in Overflow land. At those points you're usually just trying to keep your guy from dealing with a Deadly wound; the rest he'll probably have to heal on his own.
Either way, though, Kagetenshi's condition will apply. Unless you're healing someone with a full 6 Essence, you're not likely to ever get more than 2-3 boxes, even if you put all your spell pool into the casting. And then you have to worry about the monster drain from a F6 Heal... ugh. |
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Aug 16 2004, 08:25 PM
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#31
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If your character is taking Heal anyway, yeah, go for F5 or F6, or at the very least F3. The discussion in this case is of the powerful tool that Heal 2 in the hands of every single magic-user for free can be. ~J |
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Aug 16 2004, 08:33 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
You're not targeting tech directly with illusions, so you don't roll for OR (or at least not with phantasm and similar, Chaos might be exception). You always roll against 4 +any relevant modifiers. The whole resisting check is to see whether or not you can perceive they're not real. Since a camera shows what it shows, and has no mind to perceive through it, they automatically fail.
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Aug 16 2004, 08:37 PM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You're not understanding the ruling, Cold-Dragon.
No rolls are required. The spell *must* have a Force *equal* to more than one-half the OR of the target in order to affect it. It's a flat, standard rule. If the spell's Force isn't high enough to affect it, the spell has no effect whatsoever. No rolls required. It's a bare minimum requirement. |
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Aug 16 2004, 08:55 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
In. ORDER. to AFFECT. IT!
that's assuming you cast a spell ON the object in question. that's perfectly accurate for a combat spell or a manipulation spell and anything that targets the camera, but an illusion does not apply. An illusion merely creates an image that can be seen physically; a camera will see you make a dragon or a stripper or yourself waving to it, just as any other being would. The illusion's target is what it creates. The camera, having a visible sensor that transmit/records what it sees, picks up the image, but since it has no method to determine it's fake or not, shows it to anyone watching the video feed or who watches the recording later. If it didn't work this way, then how would a person explain that they were chasing a trespasser, when all the cameras show him just running? That literally botches the spell in favor of the SR's when it comes to confusing the enemy (unless of course, they use a high level spell just so they can baffle the camera, in which case they may as well just walk up to it themselves. I can understand a weak spell frequently being looked through by a person, but not with a camera. I agree to OR for purposes of targeting and affecting, not for convenience of being in range. and I'm WELL aware of the rules for minimum force to affect a nonliving target too. :P |
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Aug 16 2004, 09:10 PM
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#35
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
And here's your next mistake. Spells like most Indirect Illusions are cast on a SUBJECT and affect TARGETS. (Improved) Invisibility is one such spell. It makes the subject invisible, and anything that could witness that subject is the target. If the spell is incapable of affecting that target -- guess what. It has no effect on that target. So if a camera has an OR of 8, an Improved Invisibility spell with a Force of 3 or lower won't have any effect against it. End of story, the camera spots them as per the standard rules because the spell didn't have the mojo to affect it anymore than a light pistol has the Power to penetrate a tank's ten-inch thick armor. It's not a matter of being "looked through" by the camera so much as "just not affecting" the camera. If the Force is 4 or higher, the camera is affected and thus doesn't see the target since it doesn't get to resist the spell. Again, end of story, the camera doesn't spot them.
The exact same way they'd explain it if the caster has only cast Invisibility (which only affects living beings) instead of Improved Invisibility (which affects cameras if strong enough). You're questing why a spell (or anything else) would only affect some things and not others is kind of baffling in and of itself. If I throw a grenade in an empty field that's only occupied by a massive troll with a Body of 20 in heavy MilSpec dikoted armor and tons of cybernetic armor as well as a half-naked Elf with a Body of 1, it's pretty likely that only the Elf is going to go down. "How are they going to explain that?" Pretty much the same difference. |
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Aug 16 2004, 09:14 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
fine then, I'll stay out of my own topic or whatever. I can understand the basis, but I can't see how what I said doesn't make sense, even if it is potentially wrong.
ciao |
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Aug 16 2004, 09:20 PM
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#37
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 12-August 04 Member No.: 6,558 |
A force 2 Manabolt will allow you to kill anyone with average willpower or less - in other words, at least half the population. A force 2 Control Thoughts will let you seize control of the minds of half the population. A force 2 Levitate will let you fly. Any spell is useful at force 2, but taking them at a higher force will usually allow you to reap much better benefits, and Heal is no exception. Unless, of course, your team is comprised entirely of sammies. |
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Aug 16 2004, 09:24 PM
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#38
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Certainly, but that still means that allowing Force 1 or 2 spells to be free with either Fetish or Exclusive is broken.
I'm not arguing that Heal is an exception. That's the point. ~J |
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Aug 16 2004, 09:30 PM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It's only broken if you allow it to be. Allowing anyone capable of using Sorcery to have a handful of low-Force spells for free is no more broken than allowing everyone to have free Language and Knowledge Skills. It's no more broken than allowing everyone to start the game with 3D6*100 nuyen in free equipment or cash. It's no more broken than allowing characters to buy equipment without Street Index or surgical costs during character creation. It's no more broken than... just about anything else in the game.
It's all about perspective. If you're hellbent on believing that it's broken, then it's going to be broken no matter what anyone has to say. |
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Aug 16 2004, 09:35 PM
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#40
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Correction: allowing it unrestrictedly is broken.
Though I'm not going to implement it, I could see a limited number of "background magic" allowed, but there would be some extra things necessary: specifically, a background/language skill-like limiter (Magic*n in unadjusted force or somesuch) and either a limitation in the types of spells chosen (or the number of certain types) or the recognition that mages are going to get a fair bit more powerful and versatile. And as for starting cash and lack of SI: that's true across all archetypes. This only applies for mages, and as such has the potential to make them more powerful than other character types, something that isn't the case for other things you mentioned, which affect everyone. ~J |
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Aug 16 2004, 09:39 PM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 10-May 04 From: Denmark Member No.: 6,318 |
I'm against freebie spells of several reasons:
As mentioned before low-force spell can be effective I don't think they add flavor, when they are free. I like like the thougt that the vain elven seductress shaman has make-over, healthy glow and fashion, but the troll combatmage and the ratshaman has not. If they are spells every awakened have, they becomes boring. Instead hand-out some extra spell points, if you think they are underpowered, but do it to everyone, and make it a choice if you want flavorspells, or rather a extra killerspell. If you give your mages freebie spells, does the sammy get free toys too? what about free cosmetic bioware... (or maybe not, since sammies tends to need both essence and bioindex). But follow my point, I don't like some archetypes get things for free, but others do not |
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Aug 16 2004, 09:46 PM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 12-August 04 Member No.: 6,558 |
Kagetenshi:
Fair enough. I'll allow anyone to take a few freebies of their choice to spice up their character, since they'll still be outclassed in that category by enemy mages who opted for force 5s and 6s. But anyone who tries to take every single spell in existence at force 2 exclusive is just going to get a thwap on the head. But more because they're being an ass than because I think they'll disrupt the game balance. Cirenya:
Sure. I'll give any sammy a crappy rifle that does 2L damage for free. Hell, I'll give him as many of them as he wants. If he's a good enough shot, he can still kill people with it. But those who decide to buy their weapons will have a much easier time doing it. |
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Aug 16 2004, 09:55 PM
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#43
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
They do, just as all characters do. They get free surgery, free contacts, free Knowledge Skills, free Language Skills, free illegal purchases at legal costs, and free Equipment/Cash amongst other things. Some character types get greater benefits out of some of those than others, while some don't get any appreciable benefit at all (free surgery doesn't mean much to the guy with Bio-Rejection).
How is it any different than when you pay for them? No one's advocating unlimited access to all spells. At least I'm not and the FAQs certainly aren't. You still have a limited number of spells you can choose, and you should choose them as appropriate to your character. I happen to play "normal" magicians most of the time as opposed to ones that fill a silly two-dimensional niche like the "dirty rat shaman," and I tend to focus on spells that I would find practical in the real world. Being able to conjure up a quick snack when needed is great, thus a Create Food cantrip. Being able to change my clothes if I step in a puddle is great, thus a Fashion cantrip. Being able to clean myself up before a meeting or a date that I had completely forgotten about is great, thus a Makeover and Healthy Glow cantrip. Being able to cure that hangover from last night is great, thus a Detox cantrip. etc.
Again, why would this change anything?
Who says all awakened characters have the same cantrips? It's like assuming all awakened characters have the same spells, skills, attributes, resources, and contacts. You choose what's appropriate for your character.
Again, why does paying spell points for it make it any different? That's a very strange mentality in my opinion. |
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Aug 16 2004, 10:19 PM
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#44
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Ah, don't let Doc's funk get you bent out of shape. Not everyone here is incapable of polite debate; indeed, this is one of the most flame-free forums I've seen in a long time. Incidentally, does anyone have the page number/exact quote for where it states the minimum Force necessary to affect inanimate targets? I seem to have misplaced that quote, which is kinda important for this little sidetrack. As for "freebie" spells, I happen to agree with Funk that they're not bad in moderation. A mage typically pays upwards of 35 build points for his magic; having a couple of cheap cantrips won't break the game. Too many freebies and the GM should come down hard, especially if there's no justification for them. Here's a question, though: do you allow free spells to be learned *after* chargen? I'm not sure how to respond about that one. |
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Aug 16 2004, 10:23 PM
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#45
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 12-August 04 Member No.: 6,558 |
Page 182, SR3, 4th paragraph under "Sorcery Test." |
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Aug 16 2004, 10:28 PM
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#46
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
What the hell? Did I miss something? Where was I being impolite?
SR3 p. 182, Sorcery Test: "The Force of the spell must be equal to or greater than half the Object Resistance, rounded down, for it to affect an object."
Yep, because that requires downtime, the acquisition of the spell formula, the acquisition of any fetishes as needed, and a learning test. |
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Aug 16 2004, 10:29 PM
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#47
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
I meant the part about the spell's Force needing to be half the OR or greater. :) I can't seem to find it anywhere, and I know it's there. (Edit): Ah, it's in the errata; my mistake. |
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Aug 16 2004, 10:44 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
It's under magic regarding non-living targets, as well as elemental manipulation spells.
And as to impolite discussion, I wouldnt' say Funk was impolite (I was on that last comment, but I didn't flame or anything, just made it smart-assed because it's a stressful day today). I just felt Funk's dead-determined idea that I'm wrong is annoying. I can understand the concept, it makes sense, but mine made sense too, and thus far, there's no real definite answer to either. and Funk: I don't count the whole "OR" as a valid reason. It's valid for direct spells, but I'm still questionable about the indirect. My example is all the detection spells that have anything to do with objects. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they all state OR? in their TN category? Illusions never states a thing about it, and the only spell there that directly affects technology is Chaos IMO. |
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Aug 16 2004, 10:49 PM
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#49
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
OR doesn't affect the TN of illusion spells, but it does affect the Force necessary to affect it.
~J |
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Aug 16 2004, 10:49 PM
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#50
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 12-August 04 Member No.: 6,558 |
Err...
That's the fifth sentence in that paragraph in my copy of the book. Edit: You're right. Mine is the post-errata copy. Oops. |
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