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> Spirit Power + Canon FAQ = WTF?, Imunity to Normal Weapon wierd stuff...
Fonitrus
post Aug 16 2004, 09:27 AM
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QUOTE
When a spirit or critter with Immunity (Normal Weapons) is attacked, do you only compare double its Essence to the base Power of the weapon (regardless of modifiers, as with the Hardened Armor power), or do you also count modifiers to the Power from burst fire, ammo type, extra successes, etc?
Treat the Immunity power as you would the Hardened Armor power--only use the base Power of the weapon, unmodified by burst fire, ammo type, etc.


What i find weird is the mention of "ammo type" in the disregard list of mods.

Now im not an expert on firearms but i would think iregardless of what u put in ur bullets the firing mechanism has no effect whatsoever in the weapons damage capability. Saying ammo types dont matter when shooting at spirits makes me think that if i had no bullets in my weapon just by having the firing pin move air in the barrel (not possible as no blast to recoil back for further successions..so u might only do it once) i can damage a spirit as good as if i had ANY bullet in my weapon.
Now all BASE weapon damages are given as assumed for STANDARD bullets..right?

It seems odd that ammo will not affect the outcome...
I know this isnt the case for vehicles but why is it for hardened armour and spirits power.
I just read this and realized that without ammo types helping out then your average mundane runner would have ZERO chance of defeating spirits with force 4 or above....
In fact ALL smgs cant damage spirits of force 4 spirits. Even LMGs canot dent these things. Whats surprising all pistols are ur average spirit killing tool and also the shotgun (defiance t-250) is the one of few weapons that can kill spirits...

Now what is a runner to do?
Assuming no magical support arround, how can a mundane runner take down Force 5 spirits?
also assume str5-7 maximum attribute on character for purposes of plain melee attacks...

I know of 'contest of will' attacks, BUT with magic being so rare and kinda of taboo (depends on where u r) how will ur average mundane know about this attack type?

I just wonder cause in recent games we have been facing alot of spirits and very few of the teammmbers can actually go toe-to-toe with a force 5 spirit.

thanx for any help...
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SporkPimp
post Aug 16 2004, 10:52 AM
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I'd rule that the FAQ answer is a stupid one and a prime-candidate for house-ruling, because -- even though you used the "word" irregardless, which shouldn't be a word -- I agree with your reasoning.

But if you *really* can't get that rule killed... burst/auto fire is one.Ambidextrous melee characters (or just guys with a pair of cyberspurs/hand razors) can also kill with impunity should they get within range. A well-placed explosive could potentially do wonders. A character with huge strength and a muscle-powered weapon (bow, javelin/shuriken, or perhaps a really long polearm if you can get close enough) could cause some damage. If light mil-spec gear is in your reach, some of the beefier assault rifles, sniper rifles, and anti-vehicle stuff (LAW) might have enough punch to get through there.

Do stun weapons work on spirits? I would assume not, but otherwise a tazer might be a nice solution.

If you have access to a good vehicle, ramming a spirit is a *very* good solution, btw. So is dropping heavy stuff.

Oh, and there's always "geek the mage!", except "shaman".

-Albert
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Apathy
post Aug 16 2004, 11:27 AM
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Tazer's, stun batons, and shock gloves count as elemental damage, and the spirits only get 1/2 against those.

So, you can take out up to a Force 9 spirit with a Defiance Super shock.

In my game, I'm pretty open-minded about what I consider elemental effects. Lazers (light), explosives (blast), molotov cocktails (fire), tazers (shock) and fire hoses (water) all count as elemental against the spirit's immunity.

I'd also rule that the character doesn't have to know about the contest of wills for it to work against a spirit. If I had a PC engage a spirit in melee, I'd give it the damage code for whichever type of attack (physical or contest-of-wills) gave the highest damage, even if the character didn't know that it was his will that was doing the damage.
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Cochise
post Aug 16 2004, 11:38 AM
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That FAQ answer is pretty much "wrong".
The Immunity power only references the (overall) power of an attack where as the Hardended Armor power references base damage.
That's a very important difference, once you start spreading bursts and full-auto ...

As for the armor piercing effects: The Immunity power does actually say that all ammo perrcing ammo types are treated as standard ammo against that power.
Unfortunately within the abstract rules of SR alomost any ammo type can be considered as amor piercing since they either increase power (power in part describes the penetration capabilities of SR-weapons) or reduce armor effectiveness directly. So yes, most ammo types can be treated as standard ammo against that power ... and those which don't (Flechette or shotgun ammo) will suffer from doubled armor anyway. So the only big difference is the fact that by the wording of Immunity burst / full-auto modifiers do apply against Immunity while they don't count against Hardened Armor, regardless of what the FAQ says.

You could of course start a debate about e.g. explo-ammo not being armor piercing and thus the power increase still working against Immunity, but as I said before: Any power increase automatically also works as armor penetration effect within the SR rules.

Personally I only treat APDS and AV ammo as standard ammo against that power. All other types are treated normally (including doubling amor ratings and so on)
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toturi
post Aug 16 2004, 02:05 PM
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Contest of Wills and High Willpower.
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KarmaInferno
post Aug 16 2004, 03:25 PM
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Would tracer or incendiary round be "burning" enough to be considered elemental damage?

How about water-filled capsule rounds?

Anyone else have any more creative sources of ranged elemental damage for mundanes to use?


-karma
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Apathy
post Aug 16 2004, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE
Would tracer or incendiary round be "burning" enough to be considered elemental damage? How about water-filled capsule rounds?

I would say "no" to both, but YMMV.
QUOTE
Anyone else have any more creative sources of ranged elemental damage for mundanes to use?

Sand-blaster? Acid in a squirt-gun? Shotgun full of rock salt? WP grenades?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Aug 16 2004, 06:23 PM
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Incendiary rounds do extra damage based on the burning material left inside the target. I'd consider that elemental damage -- at least as elemental as any other heat/flame-based attack. That would still require you to riddle the spirit with them. A couple of 10-round bursts should do the trick.
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Cynic project
post Aug 16 2004, 07:21 PM
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And what about Big D's temper rounds?
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Arethusa
post Aug 16 2004, 07:46 PM
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If grenades can do elemental damage through blast, I believe those certainly count.
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snowRaven
post Aug 17 2004, 12:49 AM
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I'm still partial to the fluff text and rules from 2nd edition Awakenings, were the only thing that really damaged spirits were intent and will - albeit channeled by a weapon. All firearms used their base damage code (modified for burst or full auto I think, but not for ammo type) against the spirits base immunty. Indirect attacks (like explosives) couldn't damage the spirit unless it was considered elemental damage (not to be confused with elemental effects - if all elemental effects constitute elemental damage, then bullets (Metal) would also count) - watercannons, flamethrowers, and I'd assume any natural rock and any high-powered air stream.
Then again, under 2nd edition rules a mundane could use conjuring for banishing purposes, I believe...

This does lead to some odd situations, but so does every rules set of Immunity to Normal Weapons.
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Otaku On Acid
post Aug 17 2004, 04:08 AM
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that line always confused me. Does that me that Armor piercing ammo is treated like normal rounds and have to pierce the immunity power, or that AP rounds just ignore the immunity and do normal damage?
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mfb
post Aug 17 2004, 05:47 AM
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the first. think of Immunity to NW as being hardened armor.
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Necro Tech
post Aug 17 2004, 06:28 AM
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Hopefully spirits don't rule the world in the average game. Considering how expensive an elemental is and how hard it is to whip out a huge nature spirit, a group of average people can kill a single spirit. Sure they only do CHA (M) damage but make sure all your runners carry extendable batons. With the combo of reach and friends in melee you will kill any nature spirit dead and most elementals with zero problem. Most important to remember, spirits can't soak "contest of wills damage" with combat pool.
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