New XM8 Assault Rifle - Dumpshock Forums

New XM8 Assault Rifle

FrostyNSO View Member Profile	Aug 27 2004, 06:23 PM Post #76
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550	Location of the shot is the most important factor. Another big factor is the individual being shot. Some guys might get shot and just aren't impressed. The best shot at dropping a guy is if you hit him somewhere in the upper spinal column, or the ocular cranial cavity. Anywhere else and you can't guarantee anything.

otomik

Aug 27 2004, 09:13 PM

Post #77

Moving Target

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QUOTE

So what happens to the OICW? Totally scrapped or reserved for special forces or whatever?

though i totally agree with what cray74 said, one could add that the OICW XM29 has failed and that they've opted for more incremental improvements by splitting the up the components, the rifle part has become the XM8 and the 25mm cannon part is the XM25 (much more doable and will be compatible with the XM307 (which is also being developed in .50BMG).

http://www.gdatp.com/products/default.htm

the XM25 is still stupid, but it's the government and once you get enough momentum on a project it's difficult to cancel (not that the V22 Ospey and Crusader artillery system aren't COOL). the modular nature of the XM8 means you can probably put a programable single shot 25mm grenade launcer on there later, maybe a digital ammo counter for the optics and laser painter/range finder.

Atrox

Aug 27 2004, 09:20 PM

Post #78

Moving Target

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QUOTE (FrostyNSO)

I am sorely disappointed that the US gov didn't go bullpup, I think they're more comfortable, more compact, and easier to switch for lefties. Probably worried some of the dumber grunts would end up pointing the wrong end at themselves =)

The French are quite happy with their FAMAS, true. But do ask the Aussies about their experiences with the Steyr AUG.
Wear asbestos.
I'm not even going into the L85; the problems with that weapon don't relate to the bullpup design.

OTOH, Bullpups have a few problems of their own. To name just one, the G36 is available with a cylindrical 100-magazine. Though originally intended for the lMG36, at least KSK has used it on the regular rifle. The same kind of magazine is likely to be adopted by the US Army for the LMG variant of the M8.
That thing simply wouldn't fit next to your cheek, and I wouldn't want to carry an MG with less than 100 rounds on tap. There's a reason weapons like the Bren Gun and BAR went out of style. It's called sustained fire capability.
By the same token, the regular mags can be clipped together as shown . Again, don't think that would be a comfortable fit on a bullpup.

Remember, this isn't just an AR. This is every automatic rifle-calibre infantry weapon in the US arsenal. In the long run, it'll replace the M16/M4 ARs, the M249 SAW, and possibly even the M24 sniper rifle.
The reason? Ease of supply. One action for every weapon in the service. And if the supply store runs out on carbine barrels, you get a full-sized one, or vice-versa.

FrostyNSO View Member Profile	Aug 27 2004, 09:49 PM Post #79
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550	I loved the FAMAS, but I've never tried the L85 and only used the AUG a few times. I don't really see the XM-8 replacing the SAW though.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Aug 27 2004, 10:28 PM Post #80
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	bipod, longer barrel, 100 round cylinder magazine, thats the xm8 in lmg config right? the question is, do you want a bigger caliber with that or do you want the ability to grab some extras form your fallen squadmate over there if needed?

Arethusa

Aug 28 2004, 12:16 AM

Post #81

Runner

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QUOTE (Atrox)

The French are quite happy with their FAMAS, true. But do ask the Aussies about their experiences with the Steyr AUG.
Wear asbestos.

Though true, the problems with those rifles arise not from the fact that they're bullpup. Rather, their problems arise from the fact that they suck— though I know a Brit marine armorer who stands by the modern L85A2 as a finally competent weapon. Still, you do raise valid drawbacks to the bullpup format. I just don't feel that they're significant enough to offset the drawback of a standard issue 12.5" barrel and reliance on the traditionall craptacular reliability of beta-c mags, even if these new ones are supposed to be better. And as for clipped mags, well, there's a reason you don't see that done outside of SWAT teams and the like.

Siege

Aug 28 2004, 01:36 AM

Post #82

Dragon

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QUOTE (Nath)

QUOTE (Smiley @ Aug 27 2004, 06:54 PM)

Are the specs anywhere? Like the weight, etc.?

Read the thread... this link has been already posted twice by me and Siege (who seemingly didn't read the thread completely either): http://world.guns.ru/assault/as61-e.htm

:P

-Siege

Young Freud

Aug 28 2004, 02:14 AM

Post #83

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Arethusa)

QUOTE (Atrox)

The French are quite happy with their FAMAS, true. But do ask the Aussies about their experiences with the Steyr AUG.
Wear asbestos.

Though true, the problems with those rifles arise not from the fact that they're bullpup. Rather, their problems arise from the fact that they suck— though I know a Brit marine armorer who stands by the modern L85A2 as a finally competent weapon. Still, you do raise valid drawbacks to the bullpup format. I just don't feel that they're significant enough to offset the drawback of a standard issue 12.5" barrel and reliance on the traditionall craptacular reliability of beta-c mags, even if these new ones are supposed to be better. And as for clipped mags, well, there's a reason you don't see that done outside of SWAT teams and the like.

The reason the Aussies had the problem with the Austeyr was because ADI, Australian Defense Industries, built them not to Steyr's specifications. Apparently, the newer batches is more in line with their Austrian counterparts, especially in regards to material specifications. And the AUG appears to have a future in the Australia military as the Department of Defence's Defence Science and Technology section is using an AUG as the base for it's Future Combat Weapon project. And both Steyr and ADI, seperately, are making a AUGA3 model.

BTW, Beta makes C-Mags for the Steyr.

And, Arethusa, don't you mean the Heckler & Koch L85A2 :D
Seriously, that British armorer is right, the new L85A2 is completely a whole new weapon. I've seen a data sheet on what modifications they did to the old Enfield, and it's way past the changing the plastic the handguards were made of. While I don't have the full list in front of me, I'm talking redesigning and heat-treating the bolt, firing pin, bolt carrier, and breech block, a more ergonomic and lower-profile charging handle (as not to deflect brass back into the gun), redesigned magazines, stronger springers, widening the gas system, etc. After the H&KA2's experience in Afghanistan (positive, with most jams being attributed to improper cleaning (oil and sand don't mix) and nothing too serious) and the reports of reliability problems with the M4 (even more than the L85), H&K went to work designing the HKM4 SOPMOD upgrade, basically apply the similar techniques used to make the L85A2 (since both rifles use a similar Stoner-designed gas system). To reitirate, the L85A2 might look like the old Enfield L85, but it's a whole new weapon on the inside.

As for magazines, the Russians have dusted off the old SITES Spectre 4-stack concept and are now making double-high-capacity magazines for the Kalashnikov rifles and the Abakan. 60 round magazines, with no modifications to the gun. It'll be interesting to see if an American or European company reexamines the 4-column magazine in light of this.

Raygun

Aug 28 2004, 05:03 AM

Post #84

Mostly Harmless

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QUOTE (Atrox)

Remember, this isn't just an AR. This is every automatic rifle-calibre infantry weapon in the US arsenal. In the long run, it'll replace the M16/M4 ARs, the <a href='http://remtek.com/arms/fn/minimi/' target='_blank'>M249 SAW[/URL], and possibly even the M24 sniper rifle.
The reason? Ease of supply. One action for every weapon in the service. And if the supply store runs out on carbine barrels, you get a full-sized one, or vice-versa.

The XM8 will not be replacing any belt-fed machine guns, like the M249, nor will they replace sniper support weapons like the M21. They're going to replace rifles used in the same roles as the M16 and M4 series and that's about it. They may be used to supplement the automatic rifle and sniper support roles, but the weapon systems are way too different to wholly replace the M249s and M21s in their respective roles.

QUOTE

Though true, the problems with those rifles arise not from the fact that they're bullpup. Rather, their problems arise from the fact that they suck— though I know a Brit marine armorer who stands by the modern L85A2 as a finally competent weapon.

There was an article in Small Arms Review a few months back that interviewed British soldiers in Iraq and compared the improved SA80/L85A2 to the G36, which is what would likely have replaced the SA80 had the MOD chosen that route. They basically seemed to come to the conclusion that the MOD wasted a shitload of money. The rifle still had a lot of reliability problems in the desert (one of which was apparently exacerbated by the new safety HK installed, which would stick in the "off" position), and at what the MOD spent for the A2 rebuild (@ 460£, at that time about $750 US per rifle), they could have spent just a little more and bought an entirely new set of G36 rifles and ended up with simply better rifles in every respect.

At any rate, I've heard both good and bad about the SA80A2. Most of it seems to come down to cleaning, which is the same problem the US had with the M16 during Vietnam. Anyway, if I can find the SAR article, I'll post it. Until then, there's this.

Personally, I can't wait until the US starts issuing the M8. Way better weapon system than the M16, IMHO. I also can't wait until HK starts making them here in the US so I can buy one.

KillaJ View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 05:15 AM Post #85
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 260 Joined: 20-March 04 From: That really good state. Yeah, you know the one... Member No.: 6,177	The assault weapons ban lifts in what, 2 weeks? Do you firearms gurus expect civilian versions of any of these weapons to be hitting the streets soon? I sure like the looks of that G36 carbine...

Siege View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 05:21 AM Post #86
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916	Ya know - I don't see why not. As nifty as the gun is, it's not significantly scarier than an AK-47, a MAC-10 (or variant) or even 30-06 hunting rifle with scope. If I end up going on a shooting rampage (hey...you...Homeland Security guy...relax, it's all hypothetical), I could stock up on weapons at Sprawl-Mart and make one hell of a mess. The only thing I'd have to get at a gun shop - extra magazines for my handgun. A 12-gauge shotgun may not be as spiffy as a space-age Trooper's toy, but it will still ruin your day in close quarters. In a hallway, it'll ruin your day and the two guys on either side of you. -Siege

BitBasher View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 05:21 AM Post #87
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220	I expect it'll make no difference except to collectors... I do know I'm about to run out and buy some hi-cap mags though. Incidentally, I may be wrong but I think the import ban on assault rifles is wholly separate from from the "assault weapons ban" and is not about to expire.

KillaJ

Aug 28 2004, 05:27 AM

Post #88

Moving Target

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QUOTE (BitBasher)

Incidentally, I may be wrong but I think the import ban on assault rifles is wholly separate from from the "assault weapons ban" and is not about to expire.

Ahh BitBasher, you just ruined my whole day. :(

Maybe I could find one of those rubber ball shooting replicas...

Raygun View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 05:41 AM Post #89
Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176	HK broke ground on a factory in Columbus, Georgia last year. If the XM8 is accepted (and it's a pretty sure thing, IMO), it has to be manufactured in the US. Thus, they invest in a factory here. You'll be getting honest-to-God, American-made Heckler & Koch firearms here pretty soon. It would be nothing short of stupid for them not to market a semi-auto XM8. It would be even dumber not to market HK416 (HKM4) uppers. HK91 (semi-auto G3) HK93 (semi-auto HK33), HK94 (semi-auto MP5 carbines), all that cool shit that used to be imported from Germany in the 80's... It's gonna kick ass. As long as Kerry doesn't get elected, anyway.

Siege View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 05:43 AM Post #90
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916	Snicker - I'll drive down and take photos of the HK plant. And once the FBI turn me loose, I can send them to you. :grinbig: -Siege

FrostyNSO View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 05:48 AM Post #91
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550	I'm looking at the FN FiveSeven. Just to try it out...may have some trouble finding the ammunition however. That's assuming the ban lifts, who knows what'll happen in dumb*ss California anyways. On a side note, it'd be nice to see a FN2000 floating around in Nevada somewhere.

FrostyNSO View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 05:50 AM Post #92
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550	Anybody hear Kerry talking about "Haves, and Have-nots"? I dunno about everyone else, but I don't want a guy who quotes Marx leading the free world.

JaronK View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 06:10 AM Post #93
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323	I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a president that's read major political theorists than one who hasn't. But that's not very relevant, now is it? JaronK

Siege View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 06:14 AM Post #94
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916	We're wandering a little far from the topic thread guys. -Siege

otomik View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 06:30 AM Post #95
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752	the bush family is so blue blood, it's all political theatre. kerry brags about europe liking him better and speaking french (that's just retarded and bush is probably laughing at his incompetence in political theatre). I bet Kerry reads machiavelli way more than marx. now about the XM8, i think they are concerned about lack of stopping power. it's possible they'll switch to 6.8mm but it's also possible they'll just switich to a heavier 5.56mm bullet instead of 62 grain SS109 (special forces has been using a 77 grain and i've even heard of experimenting with 84 grain). I would also be possible to keep more velocity by switching to polygonal rifling (HK has experimented with this in the past) and rifling that turns at a progressive rate along the length of the barrel. http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=167591

MYST1C

Aug 28 2004, 10:18 AM

Post #96

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Smiley)

Also, I doubt they'll keep that exact finish on it when/if it goes into active use. It'll probably be black, like the M-16.

Actually, the gun is expected to be colored in some sort of brown once it enters service.
The reason: The new ACU camo pattern of the Army doesn't contain any black and the new boots are brown as black is too easy to spot while in movement.
Consequently, equipment shouldn't be black either.

otomik View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 11:19 AM Post #97
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752	http://www.camo-store.com/army_combat_uniform_acu.htm wonderful, this just after we gave all the army grunts black berets to silence their beret envy. brown rifle, kind of ugly, can of krylon doesn't cost that much and is more versatile and can make cammo patterns.

Chance359 View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 04:27 PM Post #98
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 313	At least theirs is better than the crap they are trying to issue to me. New Air Force Uniform survey Please as a favor to a fellow dumpshock member take the time to let them know how wrong this is. Back to the topic, I was looking forward to getting an M4 as the Air Force phases out the M16A2s. The Army getting a new toy gives me something else to look forward to.

FrostyNSO View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 04:39 PM Post #99
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550	OMG I'm glad I got out before that thing came in. I feel for ya man. Legion combat shirts are way more comfortable, and look pretty cool I might add.

KillaJ View Member Profile	Aug 28 2004, 05:05 PM Post #100
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 260 Joined: 20-March 04 From: That really good state. Yeah, you know the one... Member No.: 6,177	Nevermind, I'm a jackass... :( Got a little further into the survey and realized it was aimed at AF personnel. This post has been edited by KillaJ: Aug 28 2004, 05:19 PM

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