 ShadowRun FASA Archive giveaway Saturday! |
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 Sep 3 2004, 08:22 PM
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#101
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Beetle Eater  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826  |
I haven't gotten to Tenebris's new stuff, but I was wondering: Why would Erhan expect a Watcher from Africa to be there on a discussion about Aztlan? Why does Usmondo respond to "the Watcher" as "I am" if he is not the one in charge of Watching Aztlan? In fact, I would say that Usmondo is a Watcher assigned to Aztlan (and thus takes offense enough at Harley's insinuation that Aztlan might need/have more than one Watcher to give a direct answer).
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Sep 3 2004, 09:03 PM
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#102
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
<sigh> I really should wait, but I feel shittier by the hour:
You'll note that Harlequin laughed his ass off at the very mention of the Passions in Tir Tiarngire. Not exactly a glowing reference to their continued existence; though not a denial either. A better reference would be the novel Black Madonna, but that's expanding the number of "Passions" to include those of other cultures (Isis not being one familair to any ED mythology, unless you accept a somewhat similar Creanan figure.) Likewise, you can't prove Vestrial visited Harlequin in Voices of the Past; but if you do accept the visitor as Vestrial than you must admit the entire encounter, especially the "you used to be more devout" comment, lends considerably greater credence to Harlequin being a Questor of Vestrial rather than Mynbruje (if he was a Questor at all.)
I specifically made mention to the being from The Lucifer Deck, you'll note, and I also made specific mention that Mynbruje, if it still exists, should not have difficulty accessing the Matrix through a metahuman host. SO I really have no damn clue why you wrote that. Care to enlighten me? I'm not going to start a linguistics debate with you on "Umsondo." Suffice it to say that it is a relevant term to a specific geographic area (South Africa) which can be interpreted as such with no great difficulty or stretch of the imagination. Again, you go back to "If everyone knows Mynbruje is Umsondo, why conceal his name?" I will grant the possibility that Umsondo is simply the word for Mynbruje in a different language. Still, even in Threats Umsondo was considered to be an Azanian interest.
Mujaji is something of an enigma, but a reference to her does convey some signifigance. If you want a dragon that's seriously offended, enslaved or killed IE's, Alamaise would have (as far as we know) been a much more obvious choice. I agree that this could be a much more specific reference--the Rain Queen is apparently opposed to the Azanian Heavenherds, which would be logical enough without necessitating direct relationship to the region. But again, taken with the name, it can be contrued to make more sense.
Again, I don't want to have the linguistics debate. That said, your Spanish root was much less compelling than your Portuguese root+prefix, and Jungle Cat has already shown at least some proficiency in the ancient languages. I don't feel like delving into the specifics of concealment here, mainly because it involves the fluency of everyone in the document in one language or another. I'll be content to concede the point that if Umsondo is Mynbruje, then the name may reasonably come from the Portuguese for the benefit of Jungle Cat (ignoring Lady of the Court at the moment, we'll assume her education covered such matters.)
Already covered nicely above, I think. I've nothing to add in that regards. I would like to take the opportunity to state that I'm not denying you outright--I just think you're wrong (my opinion) because there is insufficient evidence to support it, compared with other arguements I feel better-supported by the text.
If I may say so, far too generalized, especially trying to justify that last sentance. Etiquette and respect are integral with IE's and GD's, even if they personally feel the given individual may drop dead at any moment (and may arrange to do so.) Worlds Without End, among other sources, I think best demonstrates the degree of decorum when IEs meet and deal with each other. Likewise, if respect were not an issue, a chal'han would be a rather pointless exercise.
I apologize for any insult here, I'm tired. It just does seem like a rather incredible leap of logic to me. Take it as you will.
While Dragons can deal with the Passions on levels metahumanity cannot, I think a representative of one of the major Awakened powers backed by ancient forces--especially one that is a neutral mediator-type everyone will pay attention to despite their prejudices--would hold more weight. But that's me. |
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Sep 4 2004, 03:08 PM
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#103
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 4-December 02 From: Ankeny, IA Member No.: 3,684 |
A question for people who have obviously thought a lot harder about this than me...
Why would Umsondo, if he's Mynbruje, have the Rain Queen as a sworn enemy? What would a dragon, even a great, do to aggravate a Passion? There just isn't any documentation to support that a Dragon can even DO anything to a Passion. We just don't know enough about what a Passion is to make any guesses with certainty. They don't seem to have enemies, exactly. They don't even have agendas, other than the perpetuation of an ideal... And is there enough devotion to the ideal of Truth in the sixth world for Mynbruje to be packing any power at all? Passions act through Questors, Harbingers, and Avatars. We know of only one Avatar (in Throal) and that's interesting because Throal has a LOT of corruption (you can make the leap that Raggok's avatar exists there solely because of that reason). I doubt there are many/any true Questors of Mynbruje in the 6th World. That leaves Harbingers as the only corporeal power we don't know about... Are they a big enough advantage to a Passion that they can be considered power players in the 6th world? Just thinking. --PenAgain |
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Sep 4 2004, 03:30 PM
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#104
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Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 3-July 04 Member No.: 6,455 |
There isn't all that much I could say to what you've written here, Ancient History, since I hadn't set out here to debate your theories or to prove anything, just to add the explanation of my own when it was requested, and to answer objections specifically dealing with that theory. I see no reason to alter that. (Speaking of explanations, the next section and half of the one after that are up here.) I've already stated that proof is impossible: all we can do is to hypothesise and find evidence to support that hypothesis. Btw should specify that I didn't see that comment as an insult but the absolute truth: since nowhere is it said that UMSONDO = [choose your poison], obviously we both pulled hypotheses out of different parts of our respective anatomies to fit what we saw. How could we do otherwise? :D It is fairly obvious that we don't read conversations in the same manner, so almost inevitably we are going to be reading evidence differently. I'm a person of context and nuance rather than chopped-up phrase, and (for example) I find it impossible to take laughter outside of the rest of the phrase, what the phrase was answering, and why the laughter was written in the way it was written (rather than, for example, "ha ha ha". Hope you feel better soon, and that the hurricane does not hit you as hard as they are saying.
Nowhere does it say that he does. The comment about sworn enemy is Harlequin's; while UMSONDO only comments that "The Rain Queen is not all of her kind." That's all UMSONDO says on the matter. As to the rest: well, you could argue that the entire reason for bringing this group together into the Aztlan file is an attempt to uncover the Truth behind the rumours. Would that qualify? But from what else you say, I'm going to have to write out a separate page at some point, explaining what evidence I see for Harlequin and Ehran being questors of Mynbruje, and JUNGLE CAT being a questor of Jaspree. Would that be fair? And then everyone can rip it apart all you like, since I certainly don't claim to be an authority on the matter :D |
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Sep 4 2004, 03:53 PM
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#105
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 4-December 02 From: Ankeny, IA Member No.: 3,684 |
Ok, here's where my confusion comes from-
The Harlequin/Umsondo exchange where Umsondo says "The Rain Queen is not all her kind."... to me that says "Yes I have a grudge against the Rain Queen, but that doesn't mean I hate all greats." To me, that interpretation matches the over-flowered language that Umsondo favors throughout the text. EDIT: Another thing- why are we all so hung up on the Barsaivan Passions, when it is strongly implied that every place has its own Passions? I know the argument could be made that we are all hung up on Barsaivan Greats too, but at least we have evidence of Greats migrating (Dvilgaynon, Earth Root)- and no textual evidence of Passions packing up and hopping to new locales. God I wish we would have gotten a Passions book out of FASA. --PenAgain Curious how after 9 RL years we still haven't learned anything new regarding this document, really. Or have we? |
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Sep 4 2004, 04:53 PM
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#106
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Well, the gist of our debate is how strong the evidence in either direction is. We've made our respective points-or I should say, you've made your points and I've presented counterpoints where I feel appropriate-but as far as definitive proof, we were never out for that. Very different interpretations, is all. I'm still flummoxed by how you would read Aztlan and leap straight to "Mynbruje." Even with all your arguements, I can't quite see how ye'd make that particular leap of logic. Not a disparaging comment, mind, just goes to show we're on different wavelengths here.
Given hindsight is 20/20, I think Dunkie was more interested in revealing a very explicit body of knowledge to those select few who would do best to be aware of and act on it. I mean, Dunkie was on the board, he know most of what was going on and "revealed" in Aztlan. As for writing out your own page, hey don't let me stop you. We may not agree, but you've the right to your opinions just as I've the right to mine. On another note, as regards to the last page you posted a link to: Your speculations on Pobre and Dunkelzahn are not without merit, but I think you perhaps read too much into the nature of the Passions. The dragons knew the Passions before metahumanity did, or claim to at any rate, and have a very different opinion of them. I've already made my views clear, though in light of this thread I might revise some of it to better present it as /my opinion/ and to clarify certain tricky sections. |
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Sep 4 2004, 09:31 PM
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#107
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
More obvious than Vast Green? (Hope you feel better soon) ~J |
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Sep 5 2004, 12:32 AM
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#108
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Usun was arguably much more provoked. :P
<sniffle> I'm actually better than yesterday. |
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Sep 5 2004, 05:44 PM
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#109
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Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 3-July 04 Member No.: 6,455 |
Next page done.
Perhaps we are learning something new about it now :) However, the two Tir, Denver, and Aztlan soucebooks, Virtual Realities 2, Hawai'i novel and adventure, the two Harlequin adventures, and Worlds Without End could be seen as describing one single, great, and building arc in the Shadowrun universe, linking the Sixth World to the Fourth. (Invae/bug spirits too: but I suggest those are actually a new cycle, overlapping the previous story cycle for flow and tie-in, to begin the new and much more immediate reign of terror.) At the end of Harlequin's Back, there was a request for feedback from the players: did they want more of this kind of thing or didn't they? I don't know what the actual responses were: but the other two books in the WWE trilogy were never released in English, the Dragonheart trilogy seems to end this option completely, and fully half of the SR writers posting here -- including the one assigned to the new TT segment -- have stated directly that they don't care for the metaplot. Earthdawn carryover and interconnection is no longer a priority for the new Shadowrun owners -- in part because they didn't originally own the rights to Earthdawn, but also in part because of the objections many players raised to Threats 1 and Harlequin as a character. You can see the argument replaying regularly on the boards here: many (not all!) players don't care to work around situations. (I refer you to the argument currently going on about mind control as used on PCs.) Many (not all!) like things reasonably on the surface, and challenges that are straight-forward fightable. The creatures and situations arising out of the Fourth World are neither.
I see what you are saying now. I repost here the actual exchange for reference:
If I understand you correctly, you see this exchange as Harlequin referencing USMONDO's grudge, and USMONDO specifying that the grudge is only against the one great dragon. Taking the words as an isolated exchange, it is a valid possibility. Based on the text as a whole, I can only say that I disagree with this interpretation. Instead, I see it as Harlequin referencing his own grudge, and USMONDO reprimanding him (and maybe Ehran) against overgeneralisation. For your interpretation to work, Harlequin would have to be referencing USMONDO's situation before USMONDO mentions it himself. Yet throughout this text, Harlequin does not do this except with the people he knows well, and which other texts have independently confirmed that he knows well. He'll prick Ehran, he continually prods at HECATE (which works completely for Alachia, not at all for the Aina we saw in WWE). He does not needle DUNKELZAHN, LADY OF THE COURT, or JUNGLE CAT until they themselves give him the opening. Nowhere else does he needle USMONDO at all. When he does it not at all elsewhere, why would he bring something up here about USMONDO that USMONDO had not explicitly said? It's possible, of course, that Harlequin is talking about someone else's vendetta -- but it would be in his nature to be overt about who he considers to be his enemy. It is the one comment he makes in Paranormal Animals of Europe: obviously he had been lurking the entire text, feeling no need to comment about his own encounters with such creatures (and WWE suggests that at least one of those mentioned there is no stranger to Aina and him) -- but when the wraiths (minor Horrors) are mentioned, he breaks his cover and responds. To me, at least, it makes more sense that Harlequin would be responding to the previous statement by Dunkelzahn (referencing the hunting of the dragons by some among the immortal elves): recognising that his own vendetta against the Rain Queen might be considered another such and wishing to specify his intent -- and UMSONDO pointing out (call it advice) that such a vendetta could easily begin growing to include others of the Rain Queen's kind, but not of her nature. Another alternative, still within the same general context (that the Rain Queen is Harlequin's sworn enemy) suggests that USMONDO might have been answering Dunkelzahn's half-threat: reminding him not to overgeneralise from Harlequin's challenge to the Rain Queen. Heck, I'm lifting this wording and moving it into that part of the text -- save me that much of writing :D
Or at least their own names for the same, universal Passions ... although we do know that Dis, at least, had serious followers in Thera. For that matter, why are we so hung up on every elven land having to have a representative? There are other ways to define areas of representation than geographic: Dunkelzahn himself specifically states "be it a country or other interests". The primary interest of this gathering is that of true knowledge and judgement (action taken based on knowledge). A questor of the Passion of Truth/Knowledge/Judgement could certainly be said to be such a representative.
Well, since you've linked it I've read all your evidence, and I'm still flummoxed by how you would read Aztlan and leap straight to Azania (to me, at least, this seems seriously unnecessary complication); or how on earth you got Aina out of HECATE; or for that matter how you managed to interpret that piece of Tir Tairngire shadowtalk as Harlequin laughing at the mere idea of Passions :D (Hmm ... I probably should post it here, just for general reference:)
Dated two years before the Aztlan text (almost to the day!), just for reference. (I really miss the shadowtalk dates in the new sourcebooks. It removes the direct interaction of events discussed in the text and the shadowtalk.) At some point interpretation of evidence gels into hypothesis ... and the truth-piercing hypotheses are always a bit of a leap from the springboard of evidence: perhaps obvious to everyone after the fact, but if they were obvious to just everyone before, why didn't anyone else say so? Our different interpretations seem to have led us to very different hypotheses. All the evidence and its interpretation on which I am working is within the commentary I am writing. It's not a priority because once I finish writing the commentary the information will already be up and generally accessible, but at some point I will distill the USMONDO-specific information out of that commentary into a separate page for you, so you can rebut to your heart's content :D
Maybe yes, maybe no. Since the major drive of the entire text is to recognise Juan Atzcapotzalco as a probable Horror-construct (and thus that something Aztlan/Aztechnology is doing is bringing back the Horrors too quickly), we can probably assume he already knows that -- or strongly suspects, and is looking for independent confirmation (although ... would that be really in his personality?) Yet quite a bit of the core text seems to suggest that not all the members of the board are "in" on what is happening within the teocali ... and in fact even Dunkelzahn never reveals who actually owns Aztechnology (p.64) -- if he even knows. That mystery is left completely unsolved.
Curious, I don't seem to remember writing anything about what Dunkelzahn thought about USMONDO. I'd been trying to stay away from inside the dragon's head -- I don't understand it yet. Could you point me to it? Could be that I miswrote.
Generous of you. |
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Sep 5 2004, 06:07 PM
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#110
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Have I been misspelling it all this time, or should that be Umsondo?
~J |
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Sep 5 2004, 08:53 PM
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#111
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Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 3-July 04 Member No.: 6,455 |
Oops. Nice catch. Irritated at self: I did do that through half the post, didn't I? And that after specifically analysing um + sondo.
If you catch anything like that in the webpage, let me know? I'm obviously missing the obvious things. |
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Sep 5 2004, 08:58 PM
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#112
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The misspelling occurred somewhat frequently on the webpage as wel, though you may have fixed that.
~J |
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Sep 5 2004, 10:00 PM
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#113
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Well, as you said, we're working two different viewpoints. I see an Azanian representative as another piece of the puzzle that fits snugly (Threats said as much, as well.)
This is the particular section which I referred to as you perhaps reading a bit too much into the Passions. Perhaps I was misleading in mentioning that the dragons have a very different view of the Passions. I've left the idea that Hecate might be Aina in because it fits in many places; as it does Alachia. A person with a history connected to Harlequin, blood magic and Horrors.
Not at all. Credit where credit is due, and whatnot.
I did rather expect this to come up eventually, and won't go into the various details regarding claims to omniscience, the limits of the Passions, etc. Suffice it to say I don't think it beyond imagining that someone with with the title "the Watcher" has ways of finding things out and looks as carefully as they can at everything. Even if they have to live on the moon! <snicker> |
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Sep 6 2004, 02:36 PM
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#114
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 4-December 02 From: Ankeny, IA Member No.: 3,684 |
Here's my issue- how is Umsondo's response a reprimand? What does it mean? Why reference Mujaji at all? It's odd, as a reprimand. Please explain this to me, because I really don't get it. I am totally open to the posibility of being wrong, I just somehoe missed the psecifics about my wrongness. To me, referencing Mujaji is a deliberate choice chosen to reveal something. Of course I personally am unwilling to commit to an interpretation of what that means. Now, you also mentioned that Harlequin never needles Umsondo, but he does say the "Another Watcher?" line, which could be a nettling of Umsondo, depending on your interpretation of that line. As for Mountain.. I mean, Dunkie, having a different view of Passions- try Dragons (LRG's version- I'm at a place where I don't want to endorse looking through the PDF anymore) page 17. Vasdenjas says that the Dragons have a very different view of the Passions, and have seen them change many times over the years. Furthermore, to bring some haze to the issue of differing Passions vs. Same Passion, Different Name... in Vasgothia, some Passions were slain by Horrors. Tragedy unbalances Passions (and boy would Thera blowing up and teh 4th World crashing to a halt mean some heavy-duty tragedy), and different places certainly have different Passions that represent different ideals altogether (like Creana). Yes Thera worships Barsaivan Passions, as does the Blood Wood, but if you keep in mind that Thera is built from Blood/Wyrm Wood defectors, and that the Blood Wood/Wyrm Wood is in the same general region as Barsaive, I can buy into regional Passions rather than national Passions. That still puts plenty of different regions, with very different belief structures, into play. Just some rambles. Have at them at will. --PenAgain |
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Sep 6 2004, 11:19 PM
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#115
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Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 3-July 04 Member No.: 6,455 |
Next page up, slowly hunting through for UMSONDO fixes, but I hope I at least didn't add any new ones. (Damn, been thinking in html, and now I'm almost automatically typing in it here. "URL". Square brackets.) Oh, and since there's other name-derivations and such to play with, I decided to just throw up a new webpage for that. I'll link it once I get to that part of my notes: for now the only thing there is the UMSONDO play we did earlier. (Changed the "point and counterpoint" url btw for consistency: it's now here. I'll work through yours first, PenAgain. I like that you're really forcing me to see different ways of looking at this -- to think! :D I have to read through your entire post and then again, first to make sure I'm catching everything you're saying, then to try to see it from your perspective. (Once a person evolves a theory, it is perhaps too easy to see all aspects of the theorised evidence thereafter solely as how they support that theory or are irrelevant: call it the curse of academia.)
For what it's worth, I didn't see that as a reprimand, more as a consideration, a piece of advice: the distinction between "Don't generalise (you idiot)!" and "It would be a good idea not to generalise here". Something I did see as a reprimand to both Harlequin and Ehran fell under today's writings, however.
Interesting. I had read it as a statement of something already known among the group, for no reason other than tonality. It could also be that the sourcebook writers are using this exchange to reveal in-game information to the readers? (All questors of Mynbruje, they :D)
Again, I can now see how it could be read that way. I had seen it differently: and this takes some explaining. If we see "Watcher" as somewhat equating to "Passion", the line suggests that Harlequin is simply inquiring of Mynbruje, one who would maybe know for sure, if another Passion has made its appearance: specifically Astendar, Passion of ... well, Ding's behaviour fairly well describes the actions this Passion's sphere covers. (Ding is the elf whose description invites the comments.) I'll include a quote from the Earthdawn Companion, since that page isn't done:
Now compare Ding, from Aztlan:
If I've ever had the knowledge to comment intelligently on what you say of dragons and Passions and Earthdawn geography, I don't remember. (Hence all the interesting subnotes throughout the urgently flung-up commentary: find reference, remember where this came from, where on earth did I get this? I'll get them cleaned up eventually, or specify speculation.) Will you accept that for now, I'm reading it, and thinking about it? I just don't know enough, at this point in time, to comment intelligently on it, and you deserve no less. More generally, I can accept regional Passions, and I can accept national Passions, and I can accept universal Passions known under different names. I don't remember that any of the texts forced one specific canon interpretation, here: and I'm certainly willing to remain open to all of them. Now to Ancient History:
I don't place much value in evidence from Threats, for reasons I stated in the Overview. That by itself could account for a great deal of the different viewpoints. Thank you for specifying the section. I still don't see an explicitly draconic perspective as being mentioned in those words, though ... although I do speculate (within the generality of Name-givers) that a Passion might possibly be able to tap into a dragon's perspective ... which would have nothing whatsoever to do directly with how the dragon sees the Passion. Will you accept the generality of the speculation, without my needing to rewrite everything as PC-race Name-givers?
But, if we are to accept Worlds Without End, a relationship with those concepts completely and utterly different -- almost polar opposite -- from that demonstrated again and again by HECATE in Aztlan. It's not even something subtle: Aina rejects extremes of magic, HECATE shrugs much of it off. Accolades are invariably granted from a position of perceived self-superiority (and thus frequently can come across as patronising and condescending); Aina only comes out when she has something she feels essential to say and the hell with personal accolades or personal demonisation. Appreciating personality I think essential to true knowledge. There seem to be an increasing number of things you won't go into, Ancient History. Wrt the theory I offer, please do feel free to go into anything you wish, in as much detail as you wish. If I'm building on sand, I need to know that. If I don't know something, I'll say it. If I can't explain something, I'll say that too. Basically, I approached the whole thing initially from the perspective that each and every aspect of what I read, even the smallest, even a title, should be directly and specifically explicable by any hypothesis I came up with. If something isn't, I should know about it and not just shrug it off as "well, he should be able to do that, it stands to reason." |
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Sep 7 2004, 12:09 AM
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#116
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Aye, well. Trying to avoid long drawn-out arguements in some cases.
You're missing the point, I'm afraid. I tend to be indirect when I'm trying to be polite. I think the indicated section is bull. It is way, way off of general information for the Passions, and I think you just went out on too far of a limb from a scanty one-liner in this section. In my opinion, at least. The dragon reference, which seemed to confuse you, was in the Dragons.PDF Just do a search for "Passion." It'll be the section where Vasdenjas starts "Oh, we dragons are not without passion..."
I admit that the likening of Aina to Hecate is not without problems; and the same may be said for Alachia to Hecate in many respects. I freely suggest it. However, it is a gross overstatment to say Aina rejects extremes of magic (she disagrees with them for very practical reasons, if only because they "pull" the Horrors closer.) Hecate does come across as patronizing at times, but whether that's Alachia's haughtiness, Aina's well-earned stoicism and a facade to the others present, or something else is a matter of opinion and conjecture. The greatest hint that this is /not/ Alachia is that House of the Sun came out at about the same time (as I recall), and so Worlds WIthout End would have been after this meeting.
Aye. Threats is far from 100% accurate, but close enough in enough accounts to worthy at least some credence rather than outright dismissal, I think. By-the-by, nice call on the macchismo of Jungle Cat...whom I've always considered a female :P |
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Sep 7 2004, 12:27 AM
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#117
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Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 3-July 04 Member No.: 6,455 |
Jury's still out on my side wrt JUNGLE CAT's gender. Honestly, I don't know. I'd like to know, but I'm not sure it really matters. There's teasing suggestions to tug both ways -- the "she" of the totem description is another one, and there's absolutely nothing to say a female couldn't be showing macchismo -- but nothing I could point to and say: "That makes JUNGLE CAT male (or female), for sure." Maybe I'll have a more solid opinion on it when I finish writing this.
Re Passions, I did read that section: but it is what you are reading into it and how you are relating that to what I actually wrote that confuses me (q.v. my earlier comment re Threats). Anything brought across inside the game universe as being written by a Shadowrun character cannot be taken as objective evidence. The entire Dragons document, as I recall, is written from an extremely biased point of view. Maybe I see that as rather more relevant than you? In any case, I'll readily grant that I jumped -- that's always what a hypothesis is -- but I still don't see exactly what in all that explicitly makes my suggestion bull. (Then again, I consider "bull" to be something explicitly contradicted by existing evidence ... and still argued.) Please, do feel free to enlighten me point by excruciating point? Re Alachia/Aina: too much of this part of hypothesis-examination is yet to come in my writing. Working on it. I will say that for Aina at least, since the author chose a first-person perspective in WWE, we are given an extended and detailed glimpse inside her head, even inside her dreams ... something which is not the case for any other source or character. Of course, we could always also assume that she is in the habit of extensive lying to herself. Edit: incidentally, the events of House of the Sun are directly referenced by Harlequin in Worlds Without End; and the in-Shadowrun dates for Worlds Without End show that Aztlan predates it by five months. |
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Sep 7 2004, 03:43 PM
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#118
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 439 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .se Member No.: 625 |
If someone made off with boxes with lots of good SR|ED art I (I recon DV8 to) have the place for them if we can share them online.
Just PM or Email me. |
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Sep 7 2004, 04:07 PM
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#119
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I /thought/ that Azlan pre-dated Worlds Without End; thanks for checking. Anywho, I knew I'd have to go through this:
The only possible reference you can have to base this off of that I can recall is the description of Mynbruje jumping from one metahuman mind to another. However, there is no evidence that the Passions cannot exist without Namegivers; the dragon Vasdenjas implies they are older and far different than metahumans imagine. While we get back to the "we can't prove anything" debate on this, I will say that this contradicts both the fact that Passions act independantly of metahumans (such as when Jaspree made a deal with Alamaise) and those Passions who have died (in Vasgothia); as well in a more general sense those "Passions" who don't literally embody a given emotion (Theran sourcebook.)
I find this statement a bit irreconcilable with your previous one, but I agree with it. In their least-powerful theoretical forms, a Passion is no different from a powerful free spirit.
I think you're trying to make way too much of way too little here. The basic idea is not without merit...it's along the lines of saying a totem is just a basic Archetype that a number of magicians agree on; and the sum of their views makes up the totem. By that arguement, the appearence of the figure to Harlequin in "Voices From the Past" could just literally by a figment of his imagination, telling him something he won't yet acknowledge to himself. However, as I said, you're basing too much off too little. In my opinion. |
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Sep 7 2004, 05:46 PM
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#120
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 27-August 04 Member No.: 6,605 |
Holy THREADJACK Batman!
Ok, those of you who have submitted 'want lists', I'm back home and will try to answer your questions regarding availability of certain development materials tonight. A good chunk o stuff was claimed by a gentleman from Ohio, he is expecting to drive out to pick the stuff up in a few weeks. He paid a deposit, so I wont be letting that stuff go. I picked up the other 12 boxes I left behind at Cermak, turns out that the engineer didnt put it in the dumpster as he was supposed to. Good news I guess. Those of you submitting want lists, I would like to clarify a few things. If you send me a list, I am assuming that you plan on purchasing the items on the list at $25 per item (will work with you on price if more than 4 items). If this is NOT your intent, you need to let me know. Shipping costs will vary, but if I send Media Mail (the cheapest by far) I dont think I can insure it (I'll double check). Last I checked, a full box send UPS Ground will be as much as $45 (sending from 49002). I will not itemize the contents of the archive, some are simply 3 or 4 folders of manuscripts and notes, others are full boxes of goodies. You take that risk, but I think all of it is worth the price. I will start putting the stuff on Ebay very soon, so time is running out to have first dibs. You may resume your previously scheduled debate, thanks for the time. |
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Sep 8 2004, 01:18 AM
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#121
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Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 3-July 04 Member No.: 6,455 |
That's more nuyen being asked than I care to think of myself spending, just now. Good luck! And now back to your regularly scheduled threadjack, already in progress :D Next page up For general reference and comparison, here's a few sourcebooks and their in-game dates, based on internal evidence and shadowtalk:
For the sake of both our sanities, I'll skip right over the "we can't prove anything" part of the debate. You know it, I know it, we both accept it, end of that particular storyline. I'll also concede right off that yes, it is a jump. Actually, the core of that jump - and the one that reconciles what you find contradictory - lies in the nature of karma. The world is split up into Name-givers and non Name-givers: if Passions are not the first, they must fall under the second. The qualities of experience between the two seem to be fundamentally different.
This interpretation of "fact" is shaky, because "independence" itself in this context is a somewhat questionable concept. Let me put it this way: could any sentient and native part of Earthdawn act independently of the Great Pattern? More recently: could a free spirit have come into being spontaneously? and could it act as other than the nature within which it was formed, the nature embodied within its Name?
Perhaps one possible parallel in the Sixth World might be Twist's "killing" of the Spider totem ...? I'll suggest that such concepts are precisely as potent as their followers - and so long as there are followers, the concept retains a form of existence, or else the potential for reincarnation when the mana level grows sufficiently high. And yes, this is pure and utter speculation.
I've always thought of Passions as mythic constructs, rather than personified emotions per se. So yes: the Archetype concept would be almost exactly right ... except that once it arrives at a certain point of general belief, said Archetype would gain "independent" existence and be able to move freely upon this earth. Speculation, certainly ... but also no outright contradiction yet ...? |
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Sep 8 2004, 01:49 AM
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#122
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 4-December 02 From: Ankeny, IA Member No.: 3,684 |
I would say the only contradiction (and it certainly isn't outright) that I can see is simply that I can't imagine Passions, even if they are what you say they are, being at that self-sufficient state so early in this mana cycle. Weathering the downcycle would have battered away at them largely, unless perhaps they found a way to lurk somewhere in the higher metaplanes (like Ghostwalker)... but it took a cataclysmic event t o enable Ghost Waker to come back. So my feeling is just that we are too early in the cycle for Passions of the scope you envision. And again, you are presuming that passions, particularly Mynbruje, survived many thousands of years without being fundamentally damaged, where as in just a few hundred years of EarthDawn history, 3 of the 12 (or 13) were fundamentally altered by the state of human suffering. I just don't think there's enough juice in the world, as a whole, to power the great Passion battery in the heavens :-) You argue that
So, during the past 5000 years, wouldn't you say that point of general belief has faded CONSIDERABLY if not nearly vanished entirely? --PenAgain Too many adverbs in that last sentence. Please excuse. |
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Sep 8 2004, 01:51 AM
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#123
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
See, I wouldn't have referenced the Lightbearers for this...their Great Pattern being what you are referring to. I don't think either of us quite have the information to confirm or deny something acting independantly...but if the Passions are from another NEtherworld (like spirits, or totems, or even Horrors), then yes, they could be said to act independantly (but of course, then they wouldn't be "native.")
The answer, natch, is "maybe" on the first count (there is no /proven/ case of a non-summoned free spirit...well, unless you count Man-of-the-Woods and the like, although there have been many, many reportings of such, of relative reliability.) The answer to the second is "maybe" again; Free Spirits can grow and change, both in power, abilities and to a limited extant nature...there is nothing that says a Free Spirit /cannot/ change mentally (many seem to), or that their True Name restricts them in any way. Whether a spirit is more than their True Name isn not explicitly defined.
I don't think it is quite in the same vein; the Spider totem was never completely imprisoned or destroyed, only a particularly malevolent and alien aspect of it. The destruction of the Vasgothian Passions was much more complete, and their apparent power and influence much greater. Indeed, the destruction of the Vasgothian Passions makes a fine arguement for some of your own hypotheses.
Muddy waters. There are some accounts that the Passions began as a whole, which later broke apart (somewhat similar to Zebulon in Denver); the Passions are almost always spoken of as actual beings rather than outright concepts...think of the Catholic Saints, perhaps, where actual beings become associated with given aspects within their area of interest. You could argue this as an aspect of Name magic, the Law of Contagion, an instinctual or deliberate move on the parts of incredibly powerful spirits...hard to tell. Any and all would work. All we know is that at their lowest perceived levels, Passions resemble very, very powerful Free Spirits; and at their highest perceived levels they resemble Totems or Gods. So no, no outright contradiction. On a total aside, you might be interested in reading the "Trio for Lute" by R.A. MacAvoy. Note how the Archangel changes as he continues to interact with mortals. As regards your new page: The morality of blood magic has always been a matter of considerable debate, even to such stoic creatures as dragons and Immortal Elves. Aside from little things like the Blood Wood, which color perceptions a bit, everyone on the channel appears aware of the dark results of Sacrificing, even if they sometimes require it. The Great Ghost Dance is literally the road to Hell paved with good intentions, and the IE's are more than aware of it. Really, only Aina appears to be cautious enough to not want to do /any/ magic that might bring them closer, and see what happened to her in a pinch... Interesting interpretation on the Jungle Cat comment. Very good, well done. |
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Sep 8 2004, 02:52 AM
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#124
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Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 3-July 04 Member No.: 6,455 |
It was also supposed to be too early in the cycle for the harbingers of the Horrors, the insect spirits: and yet they are here years before the Aztlan commentary. The standard explanation is that the Great Ghost Dance spiked the mana curve, and I won't argue with it.
I am guessing the first, yes, based on independent mentions of what certainly seems to be Passions in different contexts. As to "damaged", well, those few hundred years were Scourge years, as the thousands of years in between were not. That might make something of a difference. More generally, people still have passions. I suggest that creates the basic pool within which archetypes can once again manifest.
Oh, there used to be some beautiful SR dialogues written on faith (Aztlan, VR2). That is another thing that seems to have gone by the wayside in the 3rd edition. Specific to the Aztlan commentary though, that's coming up a couple of segments from now - can I get back to you on this after I get it up? (I trust you to remind me :) )
I absolutely would. There is some debate about whether the Greater Pattern is actually the true pattern of the world -- in which case everyone and everything native is a part of it. It's speculation still, but I think that whatever else, the Passions -- like, oh, the Spirits of Man -- are "native", bound to the pattern of this earth and its peoples ... as the Horrors are not. In that context, anything "native" could potentially act "independently" while always remaining bound by the Great Pattern; while anything from "outside" would not be. Of course, that drifts quickly into a discussion of the nature of the metaplanes ... which might end up being the same as a discussion of the nature of spirits. Extremely muddy waters :) Re "netherworld" and the original Matrix access issue, check out this wording from HB:
Once again, at this particular moment in time, I don't know/remember enough about the Vasgothian Passions to be able to analyse this intelligently. For now, assume you've reached my limits of Earthdawn knowledge, and you won't be far wrong.
Interesting analogy, given how often those saints do manifest within folklore. But I've never had a problem with the concept of an archetype manifesting. In a way, in SR, it happens every time someone summons the spirit of a place.
Oh, I liked that trilogy, and the Lens of the World series. Have you read any of MacAvoy's other works? Tea With the Black Dragon comes to mind for some reason ;) But you are right, that would work well as an example of deic concepts manifesting. Not such a total aside after all!
Sacrificing is far from the only form of blood magic. Lightbearer magic can include blood magic too, per the oath:
True. Although in all fairness, that was one hell of a pinch.
Danke. |
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Sep 9 2004, 01:55 AM
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#125
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Incidentally, what is the copyright status of the stuff we get? Would we even be able to legally scan stuff and make it publicly available?
~J |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 21st February 2025 - 08:34 PM |
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