[Dragons6thW] Consequences of losing a Great., GMs please help me discuss the pros/cons Options

[Firyoshin]

I was currently planning a run where there would be a possibility for my team to flat out kill a great dragon. And not just any great dragon, but the big one, Lofwyr. Now The odds of them pulling it of are EXTREMELY slim at best and I have countermeasures for if they get close to it but there is still that chance that they pull it off.

What would the reprecautions of such a serious powerplayer in the world of Shadowrun to just be blown away by a group of meta-human runners? Any thing good or bad could help.

My current Pros are so, this team get the glory (plus the almost unlimited bounties) of killing Seader-Krupps main Dragon. They retire rich and famous and proud. Europe, Asia, and the MIddle East are free fromm his control. Transys Neurnet (Cele) gets control of the grids of Europe and a new Loremaster is found (Ghosty?).

However the Cons are slightly harder to plan out. Do the other greats welcome the death of their greatest enemy, or do they take his assassination as a direct insult (and threat) to their proud race and declare war not only on those responsible, but the entire Metahumanity. And what of Saeder-Krupp, will they go under or will a new Great/adult take them over in Lofys place?

Any help with this would be great. Also if any other GM is having a run for or against another Great then they may themselves use this Thread as a way to find info. I have DOTSW and im purchasing POAD:DS soon so I may be able to help some people.

Thanks alot and may dealing with Dragons be your best!

[Bigity]

More power to you to handle whatever you want in your game, but some things just shouldn't happen.

Corp. Download has some info as well.

[Firyoshin]

Im not trying to kill the Big L but my runners seem like they want him dead... they're liking the millions upon millions of nuyen that are on his head. Any hints?

[aeon]

Let them die. Plain and simple. I'd really be interested on how someone would manage to kill a great dragon without help from another (or a horror/shedim, invea or whatever other supermetahuman powers you got in your world).

[Ancient History]

It has been done. The closest in this Age would be Priest vs. Alamaise.

[aeon]

Would you be so kind and tell me how. And why Alamais is still listed as being alive in DotSW?
This ain't Earthdawn were you just have to go ahead and sneak on the dragon dealing enough damage. This is SR and Lofwyr has probably figured out your plan before you even finished it and sent some hitsquads.

[Ancient History]

Priest sort of stumbled across Alamaise by accident when raiding the Der Nachtmachen headquarters. Naturally, he came prepared, and called in a strike of military-grade lasers. Alamais was assumed dead by many for years after that.

[aeon]

Thanks for pointing this out :)

[Firyoshin]

But if I allow it to happen what would probably happen. That what I need to find out. The scale (no pun inteneded) of losing such a huge character.

[mfb]

yeah, i really don't see any group of runners killing any great dragons, much less Lofwyr--the least reason for which is that Lofwyr is confident enough in his combat abilities to take on other dragons. there's no way in hell a being whose lifespan is measured in millennia would risk a throwdown with anybody, much less another dragon, unless he were as certain of victory as he is of sunrise. it's just not worth the risk--in that long a lifespan, the more risks he takes, the more chances he has to screw up; and with as many enemies as Lofwyr has, it only takes one screw up. if he's that certain that he can take on a fellow dragon, how are a bunch of runners supposed to do anything that Lofwyr would even register as a threat?

but, assuming you let them win (because if they kill Lofwyr, that's what happened--the GM let them win), the ramifications would include a financial collapse big enough to redraw the maps of most of Eurasia, as Saeder-Krupp rips itself apart without the dragon to direct its activities.. the runners themselves probably wouldn't survive to even collect any reward money, much less begin spending it--killing a great dragon is hard enough; killing a great dragon without anyone knowing they did it is simply impossible (hell, if they're collecting reward money, that means someone knows about it, right?). with as many enemies as Lofwyr has, he's probably got some contingecy plans that include cacking whoever cacked him. the Corporate Court would undergo a major change as the rest of the corps scrabbled to snap up the remains of Saeder-Krupp.

[L.D]

Besides that they'd most likely be dead (by some other dragon or a corp) then I'm thinking something similar to a new corp war. IIRC there are certain companies that guarantees a seat on the CC and SK owns at least one of those companies.

Just look what the Big D's death did and he didn't own a megacorp.

[Namergon]

Nobody mentioned a new fight between Greats for Lofwyr's possessions (including S-K, as the wyrm mostly owns it).

[mfb]

isn't there a draconic ritual for dividing the possessions of a dead great? i remember lofwyr being pissed, in SotF, because dunk spurned that tradition.

[Senchae]

[snowRaven]

Unless the runners have access to a large-scale nuke, or truly massive amounts of artillery fire, I can't see how they'd even have a slight chance of offing Lofwyr. He will have at least a dozen spirits (Force 10-12 or so, Great Form) and tons of magical defenses at all times, and he can use the players' karma pool against them. He's probably at least a Grade 30 Initiate (much higher in any game of mine!) and knows a number of spells around Force 20, pretty much all of them at over Force 10 (This is going by canon-material - Rhonabwy in Prime Runners). Due to his 'Extended Detect Enemies' spell Force 15 with a range of about 5 kilometers, he'll know they are coming before they are anywhere near him. Add some ritual magic and astral scouts to that, and he can counter their move before they make it.

Assuming they manage to get close to him they will need something more powerful than a Panther Assault Canon, and armor piercing of course, to even be able to penetrate his natural armor and armor spell.

A suicide mission with the runners acting as targets for an incoming nuclear missile would be their best (and only) chance, I think. And even that will likely fail long before they even know where the dragon is.

As for the runners retiring as heroes... I doubt the other Greats would tolerate such an act (after all, if the team killed Lofwyr they can kill any one of the Greats and thus they must be eliminated - Dragon Ritual Magic...need I say more?), and he probably has a number of expert operatives close to him that would make it their final job of exacting revenge. I would think most of the immortal elves would want to quickly eliminate the obvious threat the runners now are, as well.

The ramifications of Lofwyr's death would be huge, as has been mentioned. A new SoTF event where the dragons compete for S-K and more importantly - Lofwyr's sizeable collected hord. Alamaise and Aden would rise in power immediately, as would the remaining german dragons, and Celedyr. You're looking at a reshaping of the entire power structure of the Shadowrun world - something along the lines of the combination of Fuchi's fall, Dunkelzahn's death, and the Universal Brotherhood collapse, in the least.

Let them try, but make it painfully clear to them that Lofwyr is in a league far, far above them. If they are really good and do well, he may even be impressed by their effort (futile and purile that it was) and hire them for some important job.

Lofwyr is one of the most intelligent (Intelligence in the upper teens or lower twenties) beings on the planet; one of the best magicians; economically the most powerful, with all the resources of the worlds biggest corporation (including the very best intelligence gathering) at his disposal. How can any team of runners even begin to compete?

[FrostyNSO]

Anybody have stats on Lofwyr?

[paul_HArkonen]

its near the end, in the GM info section of DOtSW

[FrostyNSO]

Anybody wanna give me a ballpark on those?

[Johnson]

Basically, I would taste their crispies. How can you have a runner group take out a Dragon. Great Dragons are hard core. I know from experience when our team decided after 2 years of playing a campaign that would take out a Dragon.

The Team was specialised to the point that each member had about close to 200 Karma points on there character sheet.

Well before we could get the first round of combat going half the team was deficating in fear. What good is that.

I had a group who tried. You can visit there remain if you would like.

Think of it as Karma. The longer you have been around the more Karma.
If your team is that good we don't you think a dragon would play apart in your bidding.

I would never risk anyone of my Campaign Characters to take out a Dragon never mind a Great Dragon. A Named Dragon well how stupid an idea.

I am not even gong to discuss game machanics as they have been well said by Snow Raven. As for stats they are there for those who would like to try.

In your campaign dragon may be fools. But if the genre is the of SR. Well if dragons are to be killed, would you not think the Corps would have done that a long time ago. May be they know the Expense and reprocusions.

[mfb]

the ballpark figure on L's stats are "way too high to contemplate". as i recall, the stats are laughably low for someone who's been around as long as GDs have--something like grade 20-25 initiate and 50-odd karma pool.

[FrostyNSO]

But there would have to be an upper limit on his attributes right? And how high would his skills likely be? High 20's?

Or does he not have body and armor, but Hull and Bulwark? =)

[mfb]

specific stats aren't given, just general stuff like grade and karma pool. i wouldn't put an upper limit on their attributes, myself. they've had thousands of years to figure out ways around any such limits.

[Demonseed Elite]

Well, Dunk's stats did appear in Dragon Magazine, in an article written by Tom Dowd, which can be found here.

[mfb]

magic 20...? i don't know whether to laugh or cry. at least the 'grade' entry has a plus sign by it.

[lokugh]

Ok Tom Dowd's article was written in 1993... the advanced magical theories had not been worked out (like the fact that there is no such thing as hermetic or shamanic magic...at least for people who understand magic like dragons). They are off, IMNSHO.

I worked out some stats for Lofwyr a year or so ago because he was going to show up for my campaign (just in case one of my players was feeling suicidal, I thought I'd have fun rolling handfuls of dice...). Remember, the stats for Great Dragons in DotSW are for your basic Great Dragon. Masaru, as a new GD maybe has something similar. Lofwyr has been a Great for AT LEAST six millenia and probably over twice that based on some ED material. Here is what I came up with:

B: 40/35
Q: 14(x3)
S: 75
C: 20
I: 18
W: 18
E: 15Z
M: 15, + Grade 30 initiate, roll 9d6 for magic loss, no geasa present (45 magic total).
R: 15 (Init: +5d6)
Astral R: 66 (Init: +5d6) (note to self: Do not fight Lofwyr in astral)

Combat Pool: 24 dice
Spell Pool: 26 dice
Astral Combat: 27 dice
Astral Pool: 30 dice
Karma Pool: 1000

Metamagic techniques: all published + some you make up (I'll leave you this fun...my rule is, if he needs to do it, he can)

Spells Known: All + some you make up (same as metamagic)

Skills: Dragon-fu at level 20 (Draconic Martial Art...can be used as basis for physical attack skill, aerial, submarine or ground based). Any knowledge skill at skill level equal to 13+ (computer based skills at 4, no matrix combat skills at all and no vehicle/rigging skills).

Attacks: Physical attacks hit at 24D. Fire breath is a 36D, area effect attack.

Notes: Note armor rating exceeds penetration rating of metahuman portable weapons. Also note that Lofwyr will probably have additional armor above this level due to spell effects. Unless you are getting main battle tanks and heavy artillery (155mm or larger) into wherever you expect Lofwyr to be, your runners will not even be able to harm him. The blast that damaged the Murrough Federal Building in OK City would only be a minor inconvenience to Lofwyr.

Second note: Dunkhelzahn was larger and MORE magically powerful than Lofwyr (my source is various ED material and the fact that Big D was Loremaster and Loffy was not). Think about that one sometime...