I was currently planning a run where there would be a possibility for my team to flat out kill a great dragon. And not just any great dragon, but the big one, Lofwyr. Now The odds of them pulling it of are EXTREMELY slim at best and I have countermeasures for if they get close to it but there is still that chance that they pull it off.

What would the reprecautions of such a serious powerplayer in the world of Shadowrun to just be blown away by a group of meta-human runners? Any thing good or bad could help.

My current Pros are so, this team get the glory (plus the almost unlimited bounties) of killing Seader-Krupps main Dragon. They retire rich and famous and proud. Europe, Asia, and the MIddle East are free fromm his control. Transys Neurnet (Cele) gets control of the grids of Europe and a new Loremaster is found (Ghosty?).

However the Cons are slightly harder to plan out. Do the other greats welcome the death of their greatest enemy, or do they take his assassination as a direct insult (and threat) to their proud race and declare war not only on those responsible, but the entire Metahumanity. And what of Saeder-Krupp, will they go under or will a new Great/adult take them over in Lofys place?

Any help with this would be great. Also if any other GM is having a run for or against another Great then they may themselves use this Thread as a way to find info. I have DOTSW and im purchasing POAD:DS soon so I may be able to help some people.

Thanks alot and may dealing with Dragons be your best!

More power to you to handle whatever you want in your game, but some things just shouldn't happen.

Corp. Download has some info as well.

Im not trying to kill the Big L but my runners seem like they want him dead... they're liking the millions upon millions of nuyen that are on his head. Any hints?

Let them die. Plain and simple. I'd really be interested on how someone would manage to kill a great dragon without help from another (or a horror/shedim, invea or whatever other supermetahuman powers you got in your world).

It has been done. The closest in this Age would be Priest vs. Alamaise.

Would you be so kind and tell me how. And why Alamais is still listed as being alive in DotSW?
This ain't Earthdawn were you just have to go ahead and sneak on the dragon dealing enough damage. This is SR and Lofwyr has probably figured out your plan before you even finished it and sent some hitsquads.

Priest sort of stumbled across Alamaise by accident when raiding the Der Nachtmachen headquarters. Naturally, he came prepared, and called in a strike of military-grade lasers. Alamais was assumed dead by many for years after that.

Thanks for pointing this out

But if I allow it to happen what would probably happen. That what I need to find out. The scale (no pun inteneded) of losing such a huge character.

yeah, i really don't see any group of runners killing any great dragons, much less Lofwyr--the least reason for which is that Lofwyr is confident enough in his combat abilities to take on other dragons. there's no way in hell a being whose lifespan is measured in millennia would risk a throwdown with anybody, much less another dragon, unless he were as certain of victory as he is of sunrise. it's just not worth the risk--in that long a lifespan, the more risks he takes, the more chances he has to screw up; and with as many enemies as Lofwyr has, it only takes one screw up. if he's that certain that he can take on a fellow dragon, how are a bunch of runners supposed to do anything that Lofwyr would even register as a threat?

but, assuming you let them win (because if they kill Lofwyr, that's what happened--the GM let them win), the ramifications would include a financial collapse big enough to redraw the maps of most of Eurasia, as Saeder-Krupp rips itself apart without the dragon to direct its activities.. the runners themselves probably wouldn't survive to even collect any reward money, much less begin spending it--killing a great dragon is hard enough; killing a great dragon without anyone knowing they did it is simply impossible (hell, if they're collecting reward money, that means someone knows about it, right?). with as many enemies as Lofwyr has, he's probably got some contingecy plans that include cacking whoever cacked him. the Corporate Court would undergo a major change as the rest of the corps scrabbled to snap up the remains of Saeder-Krupp.

Besides that they'd most likely be dead (by some other dragon or a corp) then I'm thinking something similar to a new corp war. IIRC there are certain companies that guarantees a seat on the CC and SK owns at least one of those companies.

Just look what the Big D's death did and he didn't own a megacorp.

Nobody mentioned a new fight between Greats for Lofwyr's possessions (including S-K, as the wyrm mostly owns it).

isn't there a draconic ritual for dividing the possessions of a dead great? i remember lofwyr being pissed, in SotF, because dunk spurned that tradition.

Unless the runners have access to a large-scale nuke, or truly massive amounts of artillery fire, I can't see how they'd even have a slight chance of offing Lofwyr. He will have at least a dozen spirits (Force 10-12 or so, Great Form) and tons of magical defenses at all times, and he can use the players' karma pool against them. He's probably at least a Grade 30 Initiate (much higher in any game of mine!) and knows a number of spells around Force 20, pretty much all of them at over Force 10 (This is going by canon-material - Rhonabwy in Prime Runners). Due to his 'Extended Detect Enemies' spell Force 15 with a range of about 5 kilometers, he'll know they are coming before they are anywhere near him. Add some ritual magic and astral scouts to that, and he can counter their move before they make it.

Assuming they manage to get close to him they will need something more powerful than a Panther Assault Canon, and armor piercing of course, to even be able to penetrate his natural armor and armor spell.

A suicide mission with the runners acting as targets for an incoming nuclear missile would be their best (and only) chance, I think. And even that will likely fail long before they even know where the dragon is.

As for the runners retiring as heroes... I doubt the other Greats would tolerate such an act (after all, if the team killed Lofwyr they can kill any one of the Greats and thus they must be eliminated - Dragon Ritual Magic...need I say more?), and he probably has a number of expert operatives close to him that would make it their final job of exacting revenge. I would think most of the immortal elves would want to quickly eliminate the obvious threat the runners now are, as well.

The ramifications of Lofwyr's death would be huge, as has been mentioned. A new SoTF event where the dragons compete for S-K and more importantly - Lofwyr's sizeable collected hord. Alamaise and Aden would rise in power immediately, as would the remaining german dragons, and Celedyr. You're looking at a reshaping of the entire power structure of the Shadowrun world - something along the lines of the combination of Fuchi's fall, Dunkelzahn's death, and the Universal Brotherhood collapse, in the least.

Let them try, but make it painfully clear to them that Lofwyr is in a league far, far above them. If they are really good and do well, he may even be impressed by their effort (futile and purile that it was) and hire them for some important job.

Lofwyr is one of the most intelligent (Intelligence in the upper teens or lower twenties) beings on the planet; one of the best magicians; economically the most powerful, with all the resources of the worlds biggest corporation (including the very best intelligence gathering) at his disposal. How can any team of runners even begin to compete?

Anybody have stats on Lofwyr?

its near the end, in the GM info section of DOtSW

Anybody wanna give me a ballpark on those?

Basically, I would taste their crispies. How can you have a runner group take out a Dragon. Great Dragons are hard core. I know from experience when our team decided after 2 years of playing a campaign that would take out a Dragon.

The Team was specialised to the point that each member had about close to 200 Karma points on there character sheet.

Well before we could get the first round of combat going half the team was deficating in fear. What good is that.

I had a group who tried. You can visit there remain if you would like.

Think of it as Karma. The longer you have been around the more Karma.
If your team is that good we don't you think a dragon would play apart in your bidding.

I would never risk anyone of my Campaign Characters to take out a Dragon never mind a Great Dragon. A Named Dragon well how stupid an idea.

I am not even gong to discuss game machanics as they have been well said by Snow Raven. As for stats they are there for those who would like to try.

In your campaign dragon may be fools. But if the genre is the of SR. Well if dragons are to be killed, would you not think the Corps would have done that a long time ago. May be they know the Expense and reprocusions.

the ballpark figure on L's stats are "way too high to contemplate". as i recall, the stats are laughably low for someone who's been around as long as GDs have--something like grade 20-25 initiate and 50-odd karma pool.

But there would have to be an upper limit on his attributes right? And how high would his skills likely be? High 20's?

Or does he not have body and armor, but Hull and Bulwark? =)

specific stats aren't given, just general stuff like grade and karma pool. i wouldn't put an upper limit on their attributes, myself. they've had thousands of years to figure out ways around any such limits.

Well, Dunk's stats did appear in Dragon Magazine, in an article written by Tom Dowd, which can be found here.

magic 20...? i don't know whether to laugh or cry. at least the 'grade' entry has a plus sign by it.

Ok Tom Dowd's article was written in 1993... the advanced magical theories had not been worked out (like the fact that there is no such thing as hermetic or shamanic magic...at least for people who understand magic like dragons). They are off, IMNSHO.

I worked out some stats for Lofwyr a year or so ago because he was going to show up for my campaign (just in case one of my players was feeling suicidal, I thought I'd have fun rolling handfuls of dice...). Remember, the stats for Great Dragons in DotSW are for your basic Great Dragon. Masaru, as a new GD maybe has something similar. Lofwyr has been a Great for AT LEAST six millenia and probably over twice that based on some ED material. Here is what I came up with:

B: 40/35
Q: 14(x3)
S: 75
C: 20
I: 18
W: 18
E: 15Z
M: 15, + Grade 30 initiate, roll 9d6 for magic loss, no geasa present (45 magic total).
R: 15 (Init: +5d6)
Astral R: 66 (Init: +5d6) (note to self: Do not fight Lofwyr in astral)

Combat Pool: 24 dice
Spell Pool: 26 dice
Astral Combat: 27 dice
Astral Pool: 30 dice
Karma Pool: 1000

Metamagic techniques: all published + some you make up (I'll leave you this fun...my rule is, if he needs to do it, he can)

Spells Known: All + some you make up (same as metamagic)

Skills: Dragon-fu at level 20 (Draconic Martial Art...can be used as basis for physical attack skill, aerial, submarine or ground based). Any knowledge skill at skill level equal to 13+ (computer based skills at 4, no matrix combat skills at all and no vehicle/rigging skills).

Attacks: Physical attacks hit at 24D. Fire breath is a 36D, area effect attack.

Notes: Note armor rating exceeds penetration rating of metahuman portable weapons. Also note that Lofwyr will probably have additional armor above this level due to spell effects. Unless you are getting main battle tanks and heavy artillery (155mm or larger) into wherever you expect Lofwyr to be, your runners will not even be able to harm him. The blast that damaged the Murrough Federal Building in OK City would only be a minor inconvenience to Lofwyr.

Second note: Dunkhelzahn was larger and MORE magically powerful than Lofwyr (my source is various ED material and the fact that Big D was Loremaster and Loffy was not). Think about that one sometime...

Er, quick addendum to my post: I might still be low on Loffy's magic score...feel free to up the initiation by up to 100%. But let's face it...once you get up above 30 or so, what mortal can tell the difference?

his Rea should be 16. and as for the grade thing, well, i think that all GDs should be magician's path adepts. so, figure 30-40 grades dedicated to their magical ability, and 20-30 grades for physad abilities, plus 20-30 grades for metamagics. that's just me, though.

Actually I thought about doing something like this for awhile, but decided to stop it because I couldn't grasp in the entire situation of losing Lofwyr in the SR universe.

In my version Lofwyr decides to pull an a stunt similar to his brother. It starts when a Johnson (lofwyr) hires the runners. They are told to go into a lab and kill the Dragon overseeing it and that the Dragon is an old Adult, and very powerful. To help them out the Johnson equips the group with extremely powerful stuff: Force 12 foci, super power weapons and the like all to help them and give them the confidence to defeat the dragon, along with a hefty paycheck. The team is given exact details on everything in the lab to make it as easy as possible to further boost the characters feelings of superiority.

In reality the equipment is fake, high powered dragon magic (and the like) keep the equipment working but in the end it is all fake, staged really all for the show that the PC's will be center stage.

The team goes into the lab they find it easy, but if the characters believe it to be to easy guards and security pop up to make it seem harder, but the entire affair is for the characters to build up their feelings and play into their 'I'm the best' attitude.

When the characters reach the lair they find not the powerful adult, but Lofwyr, who acts as surprised as the characters are at finding them here. The Dragon begins to battle, careful not the break their fragile little bodies, but making sure that the characters believe what is going on. As the fight rages Lofwyr finds a way to blast, drag or fly the group outside where low and behold a KSAF news crew are awaiting and catch the action. In the final, dramatic scene Lofwyr is killed by the PC's in the titantic battle and the PC should run off as the S-K group is coming in. Somehow the group gets away, almost as if S-K's security lets them, but that can't be because they just killed the boss right. Also all that nifty equipment ceases to function after the battle.

After a couple of days the proverbial shit hit the fan and the S-K staff offer a 500 million nuyen reward for any of the PC's brought to a S-K place alive. So the players are on the run and in the course of it meet some very power beings who try to figure out how these knuckle heads could have killed the great Lofwyr.

But like I said I stopped after I realized that I couldn't figure out just what would happen if everyone thought and believed Lofwyr dead. Which the Dragon was planning on making everyone believe for about 36 months. That and I figured it would quickly turn into a power game to fast but I could dream of a SR world without the great dragon.

Also, 6000 years doesn't just give them 6000 years to accumulate karma pool, but also to burn it.

Nath and Frosty,

That could all be true enough. I don't insist these be Loffy's stats in your world

However, a couple of notes:

1. I gave Loffy 1 good karma point for each year he has been a GD. I used the book's stats as a starting point.

2. From some things said, I estimate Loffy has been a great for around at least 10,000 years (which is probably low by at least 8,000 years, since I assume he was a great during the Age of Dragons...6,000 to end of Age of Legend, another 6,000 to beginning of Age of Legend, another 6,000 to end of Age of Dragons...and this assumes he became a GD at the very end of the AoD, which is not something I assume...but I used 10,000 because it was a BIG ROUND NUMBER...and those are easier ).

3. I gave him one karma pool in twenty, but you can lower it to 1:100 and give him a karma pool of 100. Or set it at whatever level you want, if you assume he permanently burned karma pool at some point. DotSW says GD's can have a Karma pool of 50 or more...so I just went more.

4. I used the stats in the book as the base value of a great. While, yes, the book does not state these as the minimum for a GD, I assume Masaru, who is a brand new GD, has those stats, so a being like Lofwyr, who had those stats some 10 to 20 thousand years ago has certainly improved upon them. As far as the ED note goes, a few points above those values was good then...but the GD's were active for at least another millenia or two after the base ED timeline, I do believe, so I think they went up. You do not need agree

5. As far as racial max's go, I choose to believe those do not apply to Dragons, as it has been stated that dragons keep growing throughout their lives. As such, I assume the physical stats keep improving. Obviously there is some limit to quickness, which is why I did not make it too uber, but as far as body, armor and strength, I feel safe in thinking them accurate enough, and essence should increase with his size, IMHO. As a basis for this, I point to the fact that Big D and GW and Lofwyr are physically larger and more powerful than some other greats and can obviously take them in a fight. In a dragon fight, you need more than a couple points difference, IMO. For example, a Troll is some 50% larger than an human and has racial body and strength max's almost double that of humans. I look at Loffy as a Troll and Masaru as a human in that sort of fight...

So, I built him from there, and came out with many good karma points left over.

When it is all said and done, I believe making stats for beings who should not be killable in a campaign is probably a bad idea, but it was, for me, a fun excercise. I posted them only because Frosty asked if anyone had a ballpark. Remember though: At least in my campaign, Lofwyr and the other GD's are the closest thing any person will ever meet to a god in the real world (the astral is something different ). At least in the sense of a being whose power so dwarfs theirs as to be incomprehensible.

In your campaign, Frosty, you can set his points at those of a standard GD from the book, and limit him in a few other ways, which makes him killable, but only barely. I don't recommend it, but you can. Figure on a Corp War, a Dragon War...and this time with probably Ghostwalker coming out on top...and my guess would be Alamaise being killed (you know he'd want to take possession of Loffy's stuff and you know GW would kick his butt). Possibly an invasion of Denver by the Azzies, if GW is hurt during the Dragon War (Rite of Succession...which is not always as peaceful as the last was, according to ED's TBoD).

Of course, all of that is moot, as your characters are going to die within a month of killing Loffy (and that is if they cover their tracks...if they don't/didn't, I doubt they'd live out the week). The other GD's are going to want to kill them on principle (Dragon hunting is bad, and dragons know ritual magic your players cannot even dream of). Loffy's lieutenants at SK will be sending high powered hit teams after them. The Atlantean Foundation and the Tir's will be wanting to talk to them to acquire whatever they got out of his lair. It is possible a few of the independent IE's might also want a piece of them. What the Draco Foundation might do is iffy, but I am betting Assets, Inc might get on their tail.

My two nuyen anyway.

Everything should be killable to some extent, it's when your back is against the wall that you reach beyond logic and go for that plan that "just might work".

Does anybody know what the damage code is for a tactical nuke? With some of the stats people give for these greats, I'd be worried a nuke wouldn't do the trick. If a nuke won't do the trick, what good is another GD going to do to them?

edit: Big D was a Great for quite a long time too, but why are his published stats so low in comparison?

Because all the FASA dragons where weaklings. Perianwyr had:

Charisma - 4
Intelligence - 5
Willpower - 8

That's not dragons stats. That's what a dwarf could have.

It depends, if you have 40 points to spread thought those 3 attribues they'd drive the dwarf's stats into the ground.

But when did Lofwyr find the time to raise those stats that high? Unlike some other dragons he didn't simply stay in his lair all day, he was actively changing the world and making corporations and nations his little playground. Also some things, mainly magical, don't transfer over from ED, like intiation. How did he get it so high when if memory serves their wasn't intiation in ED and in SR he spent nearly all of his time on over things.

The problem I have with stats those high are that Dragons aren't like us. They see the long game so unlike normal PC's they don't have the insane drive to max out their stats and raise them higher than normal, why should they they have decades if not centuries to riase them. The dragons limitation on their stats isn't physical but more mental the thought of 'I have better things, more imporatant things to do then raise my stats' are predominate. In fact I would see it as actually harder for a dragon to raise stats via Karma as most if not all would simply rely on age to imporve themselves.

Yeah, I've always been of the opinion that a dragon's power doesn't lie in absurdly high stats, but in their ability to think long-term, and be prepared. I subscribe to the exponential curve idea, where getting more powerful stats gets harder and more time-consuming with each raise, and so dragons wouldn't have super-crazy high initiation grades and such. But they would have all kinds of toys, tricks, and traps they've prepared for every contingency over time.

Multiple points:

1. Raising stats: Physical stats could be assumed to increase as a normal part of his growth process. Dragons just keep getting bigger and stronger naturally. Mental stats...well, if nothing else he has those 6,000 year downtimes when dragons are at least partially mentally active. As for magical stats, I think we can confidently say that GD's can safely spend a couple of years ever century to initiate, if needed.

2. Remember, Loffy has only been a corporate dragon for 40 years or so. What he did in the AoL or AoD we don't know. He is only mentioned peripherally in the ED material I have, and there only as Alamais' brother who has run him out of his old territory long ago, before the creation of the Wyrm Wood.

3. As far as a motivation for doing so, that is two-fold. First, the physical stats can be considered a natural manifestation that is not willed, but just happens, buring some percentage of good karma automatically. The second prong is that GD's have two really good reasons to improve their stats: 1) Competition with other Greats and 2) Furtherance of their long term goals. For example, in the AoL, Ghostwalker wanted to create new servants. Don't you think he might have pursued increasing levels of magic power so that he could more easily conduct his research that lead to Drakes? Similar goals might require similar pursuits.

As far as the FASA dragon stats go, they were ridiculous, at least for GD's. Take Big D. In 2050, Big D is almost certainly the oldest, smartest, most powerful single being in the world and has been alive for probably 25,000 years or longer. Think about that when you think about what knowledge and power he might have. Tom Dowd did not think big enough

Now, that said, could you come up with logical reasons why Lofwyr might be more limitied? Yes. Here are a couple:

1. Loffy may be a Grade 30 initiate, but it may be that the mana level in the world has not reached a level where you can actually access that level of magic. So, for game purposes, he might be limited to a magic level of only 20 or so instead of 45.

2. It may be that while a GD keeps getting bigger and stronger (thus increases in strength and body scores), that dragon hide has a limit of, oh, say 24 armor because natural materials just don't get that much tougher. Or whatever.

And as for the notion that everything should be killable, the answer is yes and no. Yes, everything should be killable, and anything the players should reasonably expect to face should be killable. But no, not everything in a campaign should be killable by the characters and their resources, at least not in my opinion. I won't put my players into a situation they cannot win. I will however let them get themselves into no-win situations if they are relentlessly stupid. Attacking a GD is a relentlessly stupid act for any level PC group I care to run a campaign for. If you are running an IE level campaign, things might change...

I agree with Demonseed and Prettz.

The power of a GD lies in it's massive intellect and planning for the future. They have a contingency for every situation and when a plot "fails", they still manage to come out ahead.

I think dragons like Lofwyr or Big D would scoff at the benefits of physical stats when compared to wit and strategy.

yes, well, "massive intellect", to me, speaks of something higher than 13. i don't really subscribe to the exponential difficulty thing, myself, because that's not how it works for PCs; i'm a big fan of equality between geese and ganders. i agree that the strength of a GD lies more in its intellect than its physical prowess--but the smartest way i can think of to outlive your enemies is to make sure nothing can kill you.

and, last but not least, high stats are a good way of making sure GDs remain badass and scary even when the players outwit the GM--something that happens in games i'm in, and games i run, on a regular basis.

How is 13 not massive? The average metahuman is 3, einstein was like a 6/7, 13 is HUGE.

lokugh
"Raising stats: Physical stats could be assumed to increase as a normal part of his growth process. Dragons just keep getting bigger and stronger naturally. Mental stats...well, if nothing else he has those 6,000 year downtimes when dragons are at least partially mentally active. As for magical stats, I think we can confidently say that GD's can safely spend a couple of years ever century to initiate, if needed."

Well a comma patient is also partially mentally active but I doubt that they would ever get downtime to raise their mental stats. But how exactly is a dragon raising his mental stats while dreaming? Again the problem with magic is that there wasn't intiation until the sixth world (unless I missed something in ED), so how is a dragon suppose to be such a high intiate, espically someone like Lofwyr who had pently of other things to do. As for the physical side I don't ever see GD's no matter how old benchpressing submarines, aircraft carriers or surviving nuclear blasts at point blank. Now granted that on the large end of it but giving dragons those stats I beleive gives them an invincblity they shouldn't have. I see dragons realing on their dragonic powers and stats instead of just their stats, but that is me.

lokugh
"Remember, Loffy has only been a corporate dragon for 40 years or so. What he did in the AoL or AoD we don't know. He is only mentioned peripherally in the ED material I have, and there only as Alamais' brother who has run him out of his old territory long ago, before the creation of the Wyrm Wood."

True but remeber two things: A) Magic was different in the fourth world and so he and every other Dragon would need to adapt to sixth world magic. While powerful indeed the dragons are still shackled by the mana cycle. B) Dragons are long thinking creatures and his way of knocking over empires smells of a tryed and true menthod of thinking. We GMs and players ID dragons by the way the acted in the Fourth world and how it is similar to that method in sixth world. So I believe this is the way he's always acted, just adapted it to the world around him.


The way I've always done dragons and always will in SR, is to use the standard stats and assign a Dragon Power stat. It is scaled 1-10 and I use it to determine its overal power (kinda like the threat pool). Every point in it gives me one point to assign to any stat except essence. I then add between 5-10 to the Dragon Power stats to determine the dragons grade (depending on how magical I think the dragon is) . Finally I simply re-figure the stats and pools accordingly, but that's me

we don't actually know what the dragons were doing during the fifth world. they might have all been asleep and dreaming--or maybe they were all out touring the metaplanes, which is a great way to earn karma. that's certainly what GW seemed to have been doing.

Replies to multiple people:

Whereas a shadowrunner would want to blast through initiation grades in a matter of years or decades, a dragon would take a much longer, slower view, preferring to learn every nuance and detail and take their time, and maybe initiate over the course of centuries.

Er, how would 1 good karma point per year of life be excessively fast? Most average shadowrunners probably earn five times that, easily. Also, at an initiation level of 30, if you figure two centuries of life per grade, you get 6,000 years to accumulate that level. If you accept my figures, Loffy has been a great dragon for a minimum of 18,000 years, or at least 6,000 years of fully active life. So, I don't think it is out of line. If you limit Loffy to something like grade 12 initiate, you assume he takes a minimum of 500 years to earn an initiate grade...and this assumes you do not accept my theory that dragons are at least partially active during downcycles. In any event, I think that underestimates their power.

Well a comma patient is also partially mentally active but I doubt that they would ever get downtime to raise their mental stats. But how exactly is a dragon raising his mental stats while dreaming? Again the problem with magic is that there wasn't intiation until the sixth world (unless I missed something in ED), so how is a dragon suppose to be such a high intiate, espically someone like Lofwyr who had pently of other things to do. As for the physical side I don't ever see GD's no matter how old benchpressing submarines, aircraft carriers or surviving nuclear blasts at point blank. Now granted that on the large end of it but giving dragons those stats I beleive gives them an invincblity they shouldn't have. I see dragons realing on their dragonic powers and stats instead of just their stats, but that is me.

Well, I think equating a down-cycle dragon with a coma patient is a bit off. We have evidence that at least some GD's have some activity during down-cycles. While they might not be active on the physical plane, they are at least astrally active to some extent...witness Ghostwalker. There have been other hints as well, although I admit not to having text references handy. As for physical stats, I am not saying that Loffy works out with the weights to up his strength. But, the fact is that dragons, including GD's, do not ever stop growing. So, if a dragon keeps getting bigger, then its body and strength should keep getting higher as well. And, it seems obvious that at least some of dragon competition is physical in nature (Loffy has killed how many fellow greats in just the last 40 years? Three?)...so I doubt any of them neglect the physical.

True but remeber two things: A) Magic was different in the fourth world and so he and every other Dragon would need to adapt to sixth world magic. While powerful indeed the dragons are still shackled by the mana cycle. B) Dragons are long thinking creatures and his way of knocking over empires smells of a tryed and true menthod of thinking. We GMs and players ID dragons by the way the acted in the Fourth world and how it is similar to that method in sixth world. So I believe this is the way he's always acted, just adapted it to the world around him.

My response: A) I am not completely familiar with the ED system (I only study ED material for SR purposes) but it seems to me illogical that there was not some form of raising one's magic power beyond the initial point in ED. It might not be called initiation but the effect is there. Too much of the stuff done in ED with magic is grossly beyond what could be done by a normal metahuman in SR for it not to exist. It might be more restricted information, but I bet it is there. Also, too many immortals came out of the shell incredibly more powerful than normal humans for stuff not to translate. Some of it may be restricted because the mana level is not yet high enough to do things like create floating islands or Theran flying battleships, but the skill remains waiting for the power. B) While it is true that Loffy was probably running some nation in that...what was it, Vasgothia? region...remember that the pace of life was slower. While in the Sixth World, it might take him, say, 16 hours a day to run SK what with 24 hour matrix feeds and stock markets running continually and the fact that SK is a global entity, in the 4th World, it might have only taken him 4 or 5 hours per day. Information traveled more slowly and things happened more slowly and his reach was so much shorter. He might have run a nation in his region, but he did not seem to have much to do at all with Barsaive or other similar regions. Can you think of one area in the Sixth World where he does not have his scaly claw?

Here is my argument in a nutshell: What numbers you finally decide on in your campaign, it seems clear to me that GD's are intended to be beyond the ability of all but the most powerful beings to kill. No party of shadowrunners, unless they are doing so with the full active support of a corporation or national government, should be able to physically threaten a GD. They might be able to inconvenience it by interfereing in its plans, but even that should be dangerous. I choose to make that clear to my players by presenting them with a set of numbers they realize they cannot beat. It saves me the trouble of killing them off.

I'm not really saying that Great Dragons aren't making the karma to initiate to those levels, but that they may be taking considerably longer to undergo the process and also possibly finding other things to use their karma for.

On the first point, I imagine most dragons think of the short-lived races as impatient and dabblers for the way they progress through magic so quickly. Granted, metahumanity doesn't have much of a choice, but dragons certainly do. A dragon can afford to take two decades on familiarizing themselves with an ordeal or spirit quest in order to seek higher mysteries. In fact, since dragon magic works differently than the magic that metahumanity uses, this slow approach might even be required. We can't assume that dragons initiate like metahumanity does, given that non-dragons can not learn draconic magic, and suffer a +2 TN when even trying to understand any dragon magic concept.

On the second point, keep in mind a dragon's hoard. I imagine dragons are bound to a sheer number of foci and magical items that metahuman casters can't even imagine. That's a lot of karma investment. Not to mention all the various other magical constructs dragons might enchant, sustain, etc. Which goes back to my point about dragons being powerful because of their long-view, not sheer numbers.

Your stats may be a bit off, Lokugh. If Lofwyr is as old as Ghostwalker and Dunkelzahn (and that is an if, I believe he's a generation younger) then he's been a Great Dragon for no longer than seventeen to fifteen thousand years; and at least 10,000 of that was hibernating.

lokugh
"Well, I think equating a down-cycle dragon with a coma patient is a bit off. We have evidence that at least some GD's have some activity during down-cycles. While they might not be active on the physical plane, they are at least astrally active to some extent...witness Ghostwalker."

I'm not sure I always thought of Ghostwalker being the exception not the rule.

I'm not sure I always thought of Ghostwalker being the exception not the rule.

For the level of activity, GW probably is unusual. However, there has been a lot of speculation that at least some of the dragon legends from history are the result of astrally projecting dragons. I am not saying they were physically active during this period (it is obvious they were not) but mentally and astrally active does not seem to be a stretch.