 Way of the Gun Adept, I know... 'ANOTHER ONE?' |
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 Sep 14 2004, 07:41 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 100 Joined: 14-June 04 Member No.: 6,400  |
So yeah, this topic seems to keep coming up on the boards and it finally came up in one of my games.
At first I wanted to say "just play a damn samurai" but once I really though about it, I think a "Way of the Gun" adept can be very unique, a totally different creature than a Street Sam. So I took some ideas people had bounced around and built this little bit of joy. It's undergone a little testing, but the serious "world meshing" hasn't happened yet. I'll be adding in some Metamagic groups and stuff to tie it into the game world a little better later. Till then, what do you guys think about the "Rules" portion of it? Way of the Gun at Choke-Chain! |
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Sep 14 2004, 08:01 AM
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#2
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Sigh.
Guns are mechanical things. Why must there always be something to be considered magical with something that is so obviously inanimate? Trust me, I'd love a Way of the Gun adept, but it just doesn't make any sense. You might as well make magical Riggers, magical Deckers (no, Otaku do not count), magical Cyberzombies... However, if you're dead set on using this, then I guess I'll critique it a bit. Raise the costs, yeesh. Why? Well... NaEC + BT 3 + TBC + LLR + OwtG + KTE 5 = 6. Hey, look! I've got every new power and can now kick ass and chew bubble gum and fire bullets like a mofo at chargen! Granted, I won't be fast, but that's what drugs are for, 'natch. If you want KTE to be truly usable, don't make it take so long to "guess their opponent." Lots of martial artists know their opponent's moves two seconds into the fight. How? The way they hold themselves, the movements they're making, the overall cleanliness of the form... Lots of other things, too. In all honesty? Just another run at something that has no canon purpose in SR. You're the GM. If you allow it, it's your thing. Don't be surprised when he starts tearing through people left and right. |
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Sep 14 2004, 08:07 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 100 Joined: 14-June 04 Member No.: 6,400 |
By your logic then adepts should not be able to use swords.
Swords are a purely mechanical thing. So are bows. And if you look at what the character can do at this cost, he is actually slightly weaker (if only using the new stuff) than a baseline Samurai with a machine gun. If you don't think there can be such a thing as a "gun adept" you need to look up the history of a man named Jelly Bryce. |
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Sep 14 2004, 08:11 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Err, isn't a cyberzombie a magical cyber-construct |
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Sep 14 2004, 08:16 AM
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#5
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
shhh, don't say that too loudly. It is his game, and he doesn't allow it, remember? |
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Sep 14 2004, 08:17 AM
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#6
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Actually, swords aren't mechanical in nature. They're simple objects. Bows are also quite simple, when it comes down to the basics. I did forget one thing: Gaesa. Throw those in and you've got a WotG Adept that also has Improved Initiative.
It's magically based, yes. Doesn't mean it is magical. |
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Sep 14 2004, 08:56 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 100 Joined: 14-June 04 Member No.: 6,400 |
Technically it is botch :)
Some people see things in very black and white terms though. He likes his Shadowrun one way and that's the way it "should" be. Some people are like that. And as someone who does a lot of recreational shooting... firearms are a very simple thing too. The difference between a bow and a gun is only a matter of projectile shape, how it attains velocity and what that velocity ends up being. One uses a contained explosion, the other uses tension strength. Both are very simple things. I would hazard that a good Cam bow is actually more complex than your typical small pistol. A pistol is just gas expanding in a contained space, a cam bow uses multiple tension directions and vectors to fire an arrow in a completely different direction. It's all about how you view the world Tanka. Look up Jelly Bryce, he is CLEARLY an example of a real world Gun Adept. |
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Sep 14 2004, 09:49 AM
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#8
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Are you suggesting paranormal forces were at work with Jelly Bryce? |
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Sep 14 2004, 10:26 AM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
A compound bow is still just a system of simple pulleys. Saying a gun is just gas expanding in a chamber is a little simplistic. The rules for the gun adept at the dog site there are just too over powered. They are specifically designed to make an uber gunslinger and they are totaly unneccessary. You can make a fine "Way of The Gun" Adept using the exisiting rules. All you have to add is a little (gasp!) roleplaying and a good backstory. Aside: Tanka!! Where have you been? I haven't seen you around here in a year!! |
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Sep 14 2004, 11:32 AM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
I don't go for this "technology and magic don't mix" theory. It's too New Age. Shadowrun is about the collision of magic and technology, and the rule books already detail some of the fall out. Magic can specifically affect mechanical and technological devices. From physical illusions (improved invisibility and trid phantasm) to vehicle wrecking spells and physical adepts with bonus skill points in vehicle driving skills, there's all manner of magics that manipulate things technological. And then there's Otaku (which do, IMO, count) and Cyberzombies, the technomages of the Matrix and cyberware. If an adept wants to apply his magic points to calculating and directing the path of a bullet rather than an arrow or sword, then I say, more power to him. I can still probably make a better street samurai. |
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Sep 14 2004, 11:40 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 541 Joined: 2-August 04 From: South Africa Member No.: 6,531 |
I like the idea. It falls inline with my Gramaton Monk idea I have.
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Sep 14 2004, 11:52 AM
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#12
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I don't have a problem with physad abilities tailored to working with guns, as long as they stay on the side of enhancing the person firing the gun, and not directly changing the way the gun performs. For instance, being able to change a clip faster seems perfectly fine to me within the realm of physads. It's a physical motion conducted by the adept, like swinging a sword. It doesn't make the gun perform better. Lead Like Rain is the only one that might be on the edge in that regard, depending on the mechanical rate of fire of the gun.
As for costs and such, I haven't really looked at it from that angle yet, so I have no comment about that. 8) |
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Sep 14 2004, 11:57 AM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Exactly. The physad is just doing his part of weilding the gun better, not getting the gun to perform its work in a magical fashion. |
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Sep 14 2004, 12:02 PM
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#14
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
The cost part has to be carefully handled though, or you'll run into a situation where physads are entirely outperforming street sams.
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Sep 14 2004, 12:10 PM
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#15
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Alright, now that I've had time to read the stuff (slow day at work):
Never an Empty chamber: cool. I'd also do a spin-off power around reloading cylinder weapons. Bullet Time: we've house ruled Full Defense, so no comment. I would however see a power called Bullet Time confering extra Dodge dice more than Full Defense... Two Become One: I hate dual firearms mechanics already. No comments. Lead Like Rain: I'd put firearm mechanical restrictions aside and say it's ok. However, using a weapon in this way should perhaps be a Complex action to balance it a bit. Not sure. One With Gun: interesting, but the cost is WAAAAY too low. That's a 2 point power IMO, if not more. We're talking about a free Damage Level upgrade to any firearm. Know Thine Enemy: Er... that doesn't make sense. The power itself is interesting, but the fluff is no good. I'd drop the whole study thing, or at least change it to observe the guy for a few Combat Turns. Looking at someone smoke a cigarette for a minute won't tell you how to shoot him better. Observing him in combat might. Lead Fist: NO. NO NO NO. You can already shoot a gun in melee, at the cost of +4 TN IIRC. You can't just take off the +4TN, it's there for a reason. Gun Kata: No, that just sucks. |
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Sep 14 2004, 12:12 PM
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#16
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The rate of rire for semi-automatic and revolvers is equal to the rate at which the shooter can pull the trigger. In theory, there is a mechanial limit, but it is equal to the weapon's maximum cyclic ROF if it were in a full-auto mode. For SA pictol, that is probably several hundred per minute. I doubt any adept would be able to fire fast enough to exced that limit. |
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Sep 14 2004, 12:23 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Most fully automatic or burst firing pistols fire at really high cyclic RoFs -- 1000rpm and up. Considering how rare automatic weapons with cyclic RoFs under 500rpm are (and the few that exist are generally designed to fire at a slow cyclic RoF, which won't happen with a semi-automatic weapon), the mechanical limits of the weapon's action shouldn't be a problem for the Lead Like Rain power.
The only thing that might cause problems there is the trigger, how quickly it returns after being depressed. Still, since it's extremely rare to get beyond a RoF of 480rpm with SR Burst Fire, I wouldn't worry too much about that. The "smooth bolt-action" Sporting Rifles might look funny when fired by an adept with Lead Like Rain, though. |
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Sep 14 2004, 12:27 PM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 2,020 |
Ah... Gun Kata! (more people who have seen <i>Equilibrium</i> I see. I like the Graviton Priests)
My roommate (who I know crawls this forum, but I can't remember his SN) created a character that is essentially a Pistol-Whip Adept, and really good with a gun as well, without bothering with any new powers or anything like that. IIRC, it involved Improved Skill-Clubs and Improved Skill-Pistols, plus some quickness enhancements and other 'standard' adept fare that doesn't fall under the "Twink" Mercury category of Distance Strike/Killing Blow/drekcetera. That, combined with a pair of tricked-out semiauto pistols, and the character was pretty solid. We ran this character through the SRM-003 (A Dark and Stormy Night) and he performed pretty well, considering the situation. I'd have to see it in further action to confirm its plusses and minuses, but it's a pretty good non-standard Adept with un-out-there powers and abilities. -- BaronJ |
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Sep 14 2004, 01:32 PM
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#19
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Want an explination? Sure.
Why do I not like this, but don't mind things like melee weapons and simple ranged weapons (throwing weapons and bows, for instance)? Well, mainly because the gun is a mechanical object with many bits and pieces fitted together to form a larger, more complex object, which then uses many more complex things to do what it does. A sword? Muscle-powered. A bow? Muscle-powered. Why do I differentiate? I just do. A sword is muscle-powered, meaning you can put your full intent behind it. A gun is mechanically-powered, meaning any intent you put into it is diluted by the mechanics of it. As I said before, if you like it, use it. It's your game. However, I would really strongly suggest that you either up the price of the powers or put some limits on them. Starting, sure, a Street Sam can whup his hoop. After a few Initiations? Well, that Street Sam has the same 'ware as before and the PhysAd has several new spiffy powers. I'll give you two guesses as to who's more likely to win. Cyberzombies: The actual creation of a CZ is magical, yes. The being itself? No. That's like saying all metahumans are magical. They exist because of magic, but they are not all magically active. Cyberzombies are the same way. Sure, they're dual-natured and, when left long enough, begin to create a Background Count, but that does not make them innately magical. Claiming as much is like saying that anyone who SURGEs and has dual-nature is now magical. It just isn't so in the sense I'm defining magical (can cast/use certain powers). In fact, it explicitly says Cyberzombies can not cast or use PhysAd powers, no matter how many initiations they have already been through. Aside: kevyn: Here, there, everywhere. I got a bit bored with SR for a while. Started just reading again a few weeks ago and finally decided to pop back in. |
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Sep 14 2004, 02:28 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Tanka your opinions are quite rightly yours, but I just have to disagree about the gun/bow mechanics arguement As I sit looking at a shotgun and a compound bow I count more parts and force vectors on the bow than the shotgun. Besides, a bow is not muscle powered. I use my muscles to impart energy to the rock maple/magnesium/glass fibre/yew/steel cable/aluminium contructed bow which "stores" the energy by loading the cam system and bending the limbs. When you let go the bow then applies that energy to the arrow modified by the cam pulley system to apply a constant force as the arrow is pushed forward. When I fire the shotgun (wood/steel) I pull a trigger which moves a lever and a small spring loaded arm hits the back of the cartridge which results in a bang and a high speed bullet. As far as intent goes, there is more direct intent with a gun than a bow. A loaded gun will not fire a bullet when you stop touching the trigger, let go of a bow string and it fires the arrow. From personal experience of using a bow a large portion of my focus is spent on making release as smooth as possible, with a gun I focus much more on targeting. Umm, just had a thought. Is it because, the person themself has put the energy into the bow that there is more intent? But personally priming the bullets would also achieve this, no? |
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Sep 14 2004, 02:46 PM
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#21
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Releasing the string does not necessarily fire the arrow. You can slow it out of the nock and disarm that way.
For the most part, when I think bow, I think simple bow. You know, large bit of flexible wood with a bit of some sort of string. Bam. Simple, done. Sure, a compound bow now does the same thing, but it is, again, more directly muscle-powered than a gun is. A gun you just have to hold and pull the trigger (not mentioning recoil because, if you aim properly, recoil won't matter after the fact). With a bow, you have to nock the arrow, aim, take in several variable factors, aim again, then let loose and hope it gets there before the target moves too far off aim. |
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Sep 14 2004, 03:21 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Might be. Especially a break-action shotgun is likely to have very few separate parts, whereas a compound bow might have lots. However, there are more little moving bits inside the gun that one might think. You can see a blow-up picture and parts list of an H&K USP on pp. 44-47 of this .PDF manual -- 59 or 57 separate parts in all. And that's still a very simple, basic firearm -- for example, no electronics involved there, while there certainly will be on a 2060s gun. I'm definitely not saying "Way of the Gun" adepts shouldn't exist. I think that's just as viable as a character concept as a "Way of the Sword" adept. I think there should be enough powers for the WotG adept to personalize them similarly to a WotS adept. I'm not very good at balancing adept powers myself, so I don't introduce many in my game, and won't comment on how well these are balanced. |
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Sep 14 2004, 03:27 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Load the gun, aim, allow for tracking and distance, aim again, pull trigger. Same as, same as. Personally I use a 105lb compound bow that has a 70% reduction cam system, this means that I am holding back a mere 30lbs when ready to fire. Just to make matters worse I use a trigger release, kisser and string peep, making the shot VERY like firing a shotgun.
Even a "simple" long bow is comprised 3 to 7 layers of different wood that have varying compression/tension strengths, plus 2 different "glues" to hold it together. Use a piece of wood and string and the accuary and power suck. Besides who on earth would use a "lump of wood" in 2064 and where would they find it. What about a crossbow? Same muscle-energy input as a bow, but fired like a gun.
Yes, letting go of the trigger and engaging the safety is the same as that, no? Firing a bow is all about the cessesation of effort not the concentration of effort. |
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Sep 14 2004, 03:35 PM
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#24
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
Lead Fist is too undefined. are you shooting your opponent, when you use it? if so, shouldn't they be resisting with ballistic armor? heck, as it stands, using Lead Fist doesn't even expend a round. if you're not firing a shot, where does the damage code come from? pistol-whipping? if so, why does a 10M pistol do more damage than a 9M pistol? caliber has nothing to do with the size and weight of the weapon itself. if you're using EX-X ammo, does your damage code when using Lead Fist go up as well? and for the love of pete, what does Kick Attack have to do with anything?
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Sep 14 2004, 03:57 PM
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#25
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Eh - it's an interesting idea, but when all is said and done, I have to side with the "standard adept with colorful background story" camp. Reflexes 2 (3) +3 dice IA: handgun (1.5) L killing hands (.5) Blindfighting (.5) LL, Image mag (.5) Basic adept without new powers and potentially devastating, depending on the scenario. Lose Killing Hands and Blindfighting in exchange for a smartlink and other toys if you want to be a tweaked gun bunny.
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