So yeah, this topic seems to keep coming up on the boards and it finally came up in one of my games.

At first I wanted to say "just play a damn samurai" but once I really though about it, I think a "Way of the Gun" adept can be very unique, a totally different creature than a Street Sam.

So I took some ideas people had bounced around and built this little bit of joy. It's undergone a little testing, but the serious "world meshing" hasn't happened yet. I'll be adding in some Metamagic groups and stuff to tie it into the game world a little better later.

Till then, what do you guys think about the "Rules" portion of it?
Way of the Gun at Choke-Chain!

Sigh.

Guns are mechanical things. Why must there always be something to be considered magical with something that is so obviously inanimate?

Trust me, I'd love a Way of the Gun adept, but it just doesn't make any sense. You might as well make magical Riggers, magical Deckers (no, Otaku do not count), magical Cyberzombies...

However, if you're dead set on using this, then I guess I'll critique it a bit.

Raise the costs, yeesh. Why? Well... NaEC + BT 3 + TBC + LLR + OwtG + KTE 5 = 6. Hey, look! I've got every new power and can now kick ass and chew bubble gum and fire bullets like a mofo at chargen! Granted, I won't be fast, but that's what drugs are for, 'natch.

If you want KTE to be truly usable, don't make it take so long to "guess their opponent." Lots of martial artists know their opponent's moves two seconds into the fight. How? The way they hold themselves, the movements they're making, the overall cleanliness of the form... Lots of other things, too.

In all honesty? Just another run at something that has no canon purpose in SR.

You're the GM. If you allow it, it's your thing. Don't be surprised when he starts tearing through people left and right.

By your logic then adepts should not be able to use swords.

Swords are a purely mechanical thing. So are bows.

And if you look at what the character can do at this cost, he is actually slightly weaker (if only using the new stuff) than a baseline Samurai with a machine gun.

If you don't think there can be such a thing as a "gun adept" you need to look up the history of a man named Jelly Bryce.

Technically it is botch

Some people see things in very black and white terms though. He likes his Shadowrun one way and that's the way it "should" be. Some people are like that.

And as someone who does a lot of recreational shooting... firearms are a very simple thing too.

The difference between a bow and a gun is only a matter of projectile shape, how it attains velocity and what that velocity ends up being. One uses a contained explosion, the other uses tension strength. Both are very simple things.

I would hazard that a good Cam bow is actually more complex than your typical small pistol. A pistol is just gas expanding in a contained space, a cam bow uses multiple tension directions and vectors to fire an arrow in a completely different direction.

It's all about how you view the world Tanka. Look up Jelly Bryce, he is CLEARLY an example of a real world Gun Adept.

I like the idea. It falls inline with my Gramaton Monk idea I have.

I don't have a problem with physad abilities tailored to working with guns, as long as they stay on the side of enhancing the person firing the gun, and not directly changing the way the gun performs. For instance, being able to change a clip faster seems perfectly fine to me within the realm of physads. It's a physical motion conducted by the adept, like swinging a sword. It doesn't make the gun perform better. Lead Like Rain is the only one that might be on the edge in that regard, depending on the mechanical rate of fire of the gun.

As for costs and such, I haven't really looked at it from that angle yet, so I have no comment about that.

The cost part has to be carefully handled though, or you'll run into a situation where physads are entirely outperforming street sams.

Alright, now that I've had time to read the stuff (slow day at work):

Never an Empty chamber: cool. I'd also do a spin-off power around reloading cylinder weapons.

Bullet Time: we've house ruled Full Defense, so no comment. I would however see a power called Bullet Time confering extra Dodge dice more than Full Defense...

Two Become One: I hate dual firearms mechanics already. No comments.

Lead Like Rain: I'd put firearm mechanical restrictions aside and say it's ok. However, using a weapon in this way should perhaps be a Complex action to balance it a bit. Not sure.

One With Gun: interesting, but the cost is WAAAAY too low. That's a 2 point power IMO, if not more. We're talking about a free Damage Level upgrade to any firearm.

Know Thine Enemy: Er... that doesn't make sense. The power itself is interesting, but the fluff is no good. I'd drop the whole study thing, or at least change it to observe the guy for a few Combat Turns. Looking at someone smoke a cigarette for a minute won't tell you how to shoot him better. Observing him in combat might.

Lead Fist: NO. NO NO NO. You can already shoot a gun in melee, at the cost of +4 TN IIRC. You can't just take off the +4TN, it's there for a reason.

Gun Kata: No, that just sucks.

Most fully automatic or burst firing pistols fire at really high cyclic RoFs -- 1000rpm and up. Considering how rare automatic weapons with cyclic RoFs under 500rpm are (and the few that exist are generally designed to fire at a slow cyclic RoF, which won't happen with a semi-automatic weapon), the mechanical limits of the weapon's action shouldn't be a problem for the Lead Like Rain power.

The only thing that might cause problems there is the trigger, how quickly it returns after being depressed. Still, since it's extremely rare to get beyond a RoF of 480rpm with SR Burst Fire, I wouldn't worry too much about that.

The "smooth bolt-action" Sporting Rifles might look funny when fired by an adept with Lead Like Rain, though.

Ah... Gun Kata! (more people who have seen <i>Equilibrium</i> I see. I like the Graviton Priests)

My roommate (who I know crawls this forum, but I can't remember his SN) created a character that is essentially a Pistol-Whip Adept, and really good with a gun as well, without bothering with any new powers or anything like that.

IIRC, it involved Improved Skill-Clubs and Improved Skill-Pistols, plus some quickness enhancements and other 'standard' adept fare that doesn't fall under the "Twink" Mercury category of Distance Strike/Killing Blow/drekcetera. That, combined with a pair of tricked-out semiauto pistols, and the character was pretty solid.

We ran this character through the SRM-003 (A Dark and Stormy Night) and he performed pretty well, considering the situation. I'd have to see it in further action to confirm its plusses and minuses, but it's a pretty good non-standard Adept with un-out-there powers and abilities.

--
BaronJ

Want an explination? Sure.

Why do I not like this, but don't mind things like melee weapons and simple ranged weapons (throwing weapons and bows, for instance)? Well, mainly because the gun is a mechanical object with many bits and pieces fitted together to form a larger, more complex object, which then uses many more complex things to do what it does. A sword? Muscle-powered. A bow? Muscle-powered.

Why do I differentiate? I just do.

A sword is muscle-powered, meaning you can put your full intent behind it. A gun is mechanically-powered, meaning any intent you put into it is diluted by the mechanics of it.

As I said before, if you like it, use it. It's your game. However, I would really strongly suggest that you either up the price of the powers or put some limits on them. Starting, sure, a Street Sam can whup his hoop. After a few Initiations? Well, that Street Sam has the same 'ware as before and the PhysAd has several new spiffy powers. I'll give you two guesses as to who's more likely to win.

Cyberzombies: The actual creation of a CZ is magical, yes. The being itself? No. That's like saying all metahumans are magical. They exist because of magic, but they are not all magically active. Cyberzombies are the same way. Sure, they're dual-natured and, when left long enough, begin to create a Background Count, but that does not make them innately magical. Claiming as much is like saying that anyone who SURGEs and has dual-nature is now magical. It just isn't so in the sense I'm defining magical (can cast/use certain powers).

In fact, it explicitly says Cyberzombies can not cast or use PhysAd powers, no matter how many initiations they have already been through.

Aside: kevyn: Here, there, everywhere. I got a bit bored with SR for a while. Started just reading again a few weeks ago and finally decided to pop back in.

Releasing the string does not necessarily fire the arrow. You can slow it out of the nock and disarm that way.

For the most part, when I think bow, I think simple bow. You know, large bit of flexible wood with a bit of some sort of string. Bam. Simple, done.

Sure, a compound bow now does the same thing, but it is, again, more directly muscle-powered than a gun is. A gun you just have to hold and pull the trigger (not mentioning recoil because, if you aim properly, recoil won't matter after the fact). With a bow, you have to nock the arrow, aim, take in several variable factors, aim again, then let loose and hope it gets there before the target moves too far off aim.

Lead Fist is too undefined. are you shooting your opponent, when you use it? if so, shouldn't they be resisting with ballistic armor? heck, as it stands, using Lead Fist doesn't even expend a round. if you're not firing a shot, where does the damage code come from? pistol-whipping? if so, why does a 10M pistol do more damage than a 9M pistol? caliber has nothing to do with the size and weight of the weapon itself. if you're using EX-X ammo, does your damage code when using Lead Fist go up as well? and for the love of pete, what does Kick Attack have to do with anything?

Eh - it's an interesting idea, but when all is said and done, I have to side with the "standard adept with colorful background story" camp.

Reflexes 2 (3)
+3 dice IA: handgun (1.5)
L killing hands (.5)
Blindfighting (.5)
LL, Image mag (.5)

Basic adept without new powers and potentially devastating, depending on the scenario. Lose Killing Hands and Blindfighting in exchange for a smartlink and other toys if you want to be a tweaked gun bunny.

Not something I'd use or allow, but mostly because they are out of touch with the dark tone of the games I try to run. I don't think there's anything inherent to firearms that would stop and adept from developing a power based on using them. I mean, look at Improved Ability: Pistols. Clearly, the book wants you to be able to do this stuff.

I do think a lot of the costs are too low, especially for "One with the gun" which is just broken. Free called shots can increase damage levels or bypass armor per cannon. That's just too dangerous to tolerate, especially combined with a smartlink.

Bullet time's base cost should probably be increased. 1/3 of an adept's athletics ability could be a solid four dice. One point is more appropriate, I think.

Know thine enemy is also much too powerful. With only one power point invested, the adept's gun attacks will all be impossible to dodge. The one minute study time is nice and all, but that just cripples the thing.

Any one of these would make a nice addition to an adept using otherwise normal powers.

Siege: kinda like that "weapon zen," but why not just buy a laser sight?

Heya Raygun!

Clyde -

Laer sights have range limitations, physical limitations and can hypothetically be seen by third parties.

A magical "er" is not detectable by mundane cyber detectors, can be used with any applicable weapon class (as opposed to worrying if the gun you steal has either a laser sight or a smartlink) and will function regardless of range.

So it's not as good as a smartlink, but has definite advantages over a laser sight except for the fact you have to pay magic points for it.

Edit: Remember, this is strictly home brew and your GM may be more than willing to axe the idea right off the bat.

-Siege

Edit: For typo and syntax

Taken to extreme, you can argue that everything is muscle powered.

Snow - the difference with Blind-Fight, Quick Draw and IA all improve the adept and his ability to operate the weapon. It doesn't inherently change the function of the weapon itself.

For example, the adept can't pick up a sword and make it a flaming weapon or somehow make the blade more "er" than it was to begin with.

By the same token, the adept can't make a gun shoot APDS ammo when it was loaded with blanks or cause a 9mm handgun to fire laser beams.

-Siege

My personal favorite way to get a ranged-weapon with an astral presence:

Assault rifle with a weapon foci bayonet. The bullets aren't magic, but you haven't relinquished one for the other.

Well few things some people may have missed.

1) The majority of these powers would not function with a smartlink. I obviously need denote which wont and why.

2) Upping a pistol form SA to BF with this power can also be duplicated with the rules in the Canon Companion. I don't see why blowing some magic power to do the same thing is a hassle.

3) I suppose the points do need to go up to stop people from using them ALL together. I had originally invisioned people using one or two of the powers with reaction and skill increases.

4) In nearly every test we ran a basic Street Samurai with wired 2, Dermal Plating 3, a 6/4 Coat and a Predator defeated an Adept in a one on one gun fight.

However we do have more balancing tests to run to put things in proper perspective. Like I said, I am attempting to brew some rules that aren't overpowered and have their own unique flavor rather than just being "magical smartlink".

i'm not aware of anything in CC that will let someone pick up any random firearm--including, say, sniper rifles and assault cannon--and use it as BF.

No, it isn't just "picking it up" but they allow you to modify the weapon, any weapon as far as I can tell going over the rules, into BF from SA. I don't see how it is suddenly overpowering for a character to give up a point of magic to have that ability on the fly.

Maybe it's just me, but every test we have done so far in several different situations, the Samurai comes out on top. Let me explain our tests.

1) Samurai straight from the BBB vs. an adept who is free to alter his character between test sets.

2) 5 Different locations including narrow corridors, open ground, Samurai with cover, Adept with cover, both with cover.

3) 3 combats in each location, switching who plays the characters every round completes one set, a total of 15 combats.

4) Final test in each location is "modul" rolls, assuming average rolls for each test, rounding up.

We have played roughly 75 matches, a total of 5 different (often VERY different) powersets, and so far the Adept has only one 11 matches. Obviously there is still testing to be done, that's why I threw it up here for some constructive advice.

Okay, my C&C on these powers. I hope it doesn't come across as too negative.

>Never An Empty Chamber
Very underpriced. It lets you do things like get two simple actions for the price of one (clip), do something in a simple action that used to take a complex action (cylinder), or even do something as a FREE action that used to take a complex action (single-shot weapons). Essentially, it boils down to giving an adept an EXTRA simple action whenever he needs to reload. That's HUGE for a gunfighter. I would change the last to making it a simple, rather than a free, action to reload a single-shot weapon, and raise the cost to 1 point at the very least - you could easily make a case for it costing 2 points. Being able to reload faster fits the concept of an adept gunfighter, though.

>Bullet Time
They already have rules for using Athletics for dodging (and dodging makes more sense than full defense for a gunfighter, anyways). I would just use those, and scrap this power. Plus, they already have Sixth Sense and Combat Sense if you want someone who is better at dodging or less likely to be surprised.

>Lead Like Rain
This one is very ripe for abuse. There are a lot of SA weapons, even in the basic book, which would be devastating with burst fire. I would reconsider this one.

>One with the Gun
Too powerful. Called shots with no penalty, at the cost of a mere simple action? No. Called shots are too powerful, after the FAQ, to make them that easy. Another potentially unbalancing power. Possible change - maybe you could make the power allow the adept to use Combat Pool to dodge and not lose the benefits of a Take Aim action. This would give them superior accuracy without being too unbalancing.

>Know thine Enemy
I can see this one being combined with burst fire to create shots that are virtually impossible to dodge. Maybe you could make it a flat cost (1 or 2 points) and say that it negates the "Target running" modifier to an attack.

>Lead Fist (Manuever)
This one doesn't make any sense at all to me. Why would any unarmed attack use the damage code for a firearm?

>Gun Kata (Martial Art)
Reasonably balanced. Halving the "Attacker in melee" combat modifier is a hefty advantage, but it is balanced by the Flaw and the relatively limited selection of maneuvers. Throw seems a bit odd as a choice, though - wouldn't you normally need two hands free to do that maneuver, and isn't the point of this martial art to be able to perform it while wielding pistols?

This arguement about SA to BF triggered a bell in my head. Wasn't there a report of automatic weapons at Wako which turned out to be a non-automatic rifle fitted with a small device that generated automatic firing?

Not sure of the details thanks to British media skimping on them.

Raygun may be able to comment more, but there are several weapons that can be converted from the intended semi-automatic mode to a full auto capability.

For that matter, you can convert a Glock handgun to a fully automatic pistol with a relatively minor modification.

However, that's altering the weapon itself and not a special trick of the shooter.

However, as for making the adept on par with the samurai - the adept isn't intended to stand toe-to-toe with a samurai. By virtue of cybernetics, the samurai's ability to soak and inflict damage will invariably be greater than the adept's who must juggle a relatively set amount of magic in order to accomplish both.

And cyber is easily replaced - magic loss just sucks.

A tad cheesy, but: Handgun 6 + 3 IA + 9 combat pool = 18 dice against a TN 2 at close range. Standard handgun, SA fire, 9M - 5 for an armor jacket (assuming base) = TN 4 for the samurai to resist.

The adept needs four successes to stage the damage to D, which leaves 14 space dice, most of which are going to be extra successes - which may or may not effect the outcome, depending on your group's use of the rules.

-Siege

Had a chat with a slightly less ignorant mate when climbing last night about the SA to BF adaption of the Wako rifle.

It was a little doohicky attached to the trigger that moved the trigger back and forth at high speed. So the adept power of Lead like Rain could work (ultra fast finger wiggling!).

My advice & opinions for people who want to add new things to SR:
Guideline 1: thoroughly check that the new thing cannot be done with something that already exists in the rules.
Guideline 2: resuse as often as possible existing game mechanics.

>Never An Empty Chamber
Use G2: smartgun link allow to eject a clip with a free action, and rules about cylinder guns involve Quickness IIRC, so just give a Quickness bonus for that.

>Bullet Time
G1: CC introduces a rule that allows a character to use a Complex Action to roll Athletics, base TN 4, successes are added to the Combat Pool unitl next Phase. + Improved Ability (Athletics) + Sixth Sense + Combat Sense + Quickness bonuses and your adept can be very though to hit...

>Two Become One
G2: use the Ambidextry Edge and/or the rules for two weapon use. You can just allow the Adept to buy the equivalent of the Edge for a cost in power equals to a fraction of the Edge cost.
G1: Use Improved ability (Off-Hand Weapon), Ambidextry Edge at chargen.
I don't think that the adept really change mode, firing two weapons at once at a single target can easily be handled by a GM without adept powers: the fact that you have to split your Combat Pool between shots is balanced by the fact that the target has also to split her Combat Pool. Four shots in SA can prove difficult to dodge...

>Lead Like Rain
I would allow it at the condition that the burst requires a Complex Action.

>One with the Gun
G1: use Centering against penalties. Improved ability is also a power that makes the gun appear as an extension of the adept.

>Know thine Enemy
Studying your ennemy won't make your shots more difficult to dodge, but will allow you to target weaker points, or to shoot better. G1: Centering, Improved Ability.

>Lead Fist (Manuever)
I can't see the concept behind that. Complete nonsense for me (relation between guns and kick attacks? Distance damage code for melee attack??).

>Gun Kata (Martial Art)
You know, every Martial Art requires years of training and practice to master it. Adaptation is also one attention point of many, if not all, Martial Arts. I didn't see any gun Kata demos, but I would say that the main focus of this MA would be to fight in melee while wielding guns, without these guns hampering the martial artist. So I would go toward a MA or a maneuver of this MA that would negate distance combat modifiers for being attacked in melee, I would also include the Close Combat maneuver and bonus when using firearms as melee weapons. Maybe something about disarming.

Almost any real life SA weapon can be converted to FA. Its BF that's tricky.

I guess the thing I don't like most about these rules is they set a precedent. Like someone said earlier, eventually a player's going to come along and say: "Hey, I want to be a Way of the Sword (Axe/Whip/Club/Fist/Face) Adept. Where are my nifty new rules?" It becomes a slippery slope. Then the sam (or rigger/decker/otaku/face) is going to say: "Hey, I specialized in an area. Where are my nifty new rules?"

It'll turn into D&D 3.5....

To respond to the "Adept only won 11 out of 75 times" arguement: Odds are good that the players won't be facing opposition talent of that calibur very often right out of the gate.

Now to be totaly hypocritical, what do you guys think about a PhysAd ability that allows the use of two weapons at once? I was thinking it be weapon-type specific, like, "Two Weapon: Edged (or Axe/Whip/Club/Pistol/SMG)," Each catagory has a seperate cost. I was thinking 1 or 1.5 for melee skills and 1.5 or 2 for firearms.

The problem I have with "Lead Like Rain" is the fact anyone irl can discharge more than two bullets in 3.5 seconds.

And no matter what justification you use for the adept to squeeze the trigger faster or juggle ammo mags faster still, a wired mundane should be allowed the same thing because the magic, as discussed previously, doesn't extend to the weapon in hand.

As fast as the adept moves, a wired mundane can move as fast, if not faster with the right combination of ware.

-Siege

I agree with pretty much everything Namergon said, so I won't repeat that.

As for adept powers extending to how the gun works, I didn't see anything of the sort oin that list. As others recently said, firing a weapon faster doesn't require the weapon to change. The power doesn't allow you to hold the trigger in and spray bullets from a semi-automatic gun. Nor does it allow three bullets to be fired with one press of the trigger.

It does, however, add the new mechanic that allows the adept to put all his fired shots in one place, counting them as a burst. In no way would I allow using a burst fire weapon as if it was FA (with walking fire etc).

I'd tone the power down abit, and simply state that instead of makinfg a skill test for each shot fired, the adept can fire the shots so rapidly that they, in effect, function as a burst of the same number of bullets. Use one SA gun - short burst, two bullets. Use two SA guns - burst of 4 bullets. Use one BF capable weapon - long burst of 6 bullets. Use two BF capable weapons - burst of 12 bullets.
In some situations this is beneficial, but in others it is counter-productive. It doesn't require the adept power to extend to the weapon in any way.

And Siege, as for your comments regarding flaming swords... The Hands of Flame adept power (canon - see Brainscan) adds elemental effect and flaming aura to the adept's hands. Combine that with distance strike (since killing hands, which the power functions like otherwise, works with distance strike) and in one not so far fetched interpretation of the rules you get a flamethrower.
In any case, I don't think it's a far stretch to extend that aura to something the adept is holding (as long as it can withstand the fire, at least).
Distance Strike, and Silent Delay Damage are both examples of adept powers extending their magic beyond their body (though not through a weapon, granted). And what about Missile Mastery? It adds to the power of projectile weapons, and allows the use of innocuous items as weapons...

My point is that there are several examples of adept powers extending their effect and thus their magic far beyond the adepts personal abilities or own body.

This is what I'd do for a Gun Kata martial art, btw:

Gun Kata

Advantages: Instead of choosing a new maneuver, you can choose a single already learned manuever for use with the Clubs skill. Removes the penalty for firing a pistol in melee combat (alternativelty reduces the penalty +1).

Disadvantages: -1 dice when using the Charging or Subduing Combat options.

Maneuvers: Blind Fighting, Close Combat, Disorient, Evasion, Ground Fighting, Multi-strike, Vicious Blow, Whirling, Zoning.

Well, there is reasonable interpretation and then there's Canon.

Missile Mastery augments the thrower's skill to such levels (s)he can fling credit cards and whatnot with meaningful and potentially deadly accuracy. The credit card itself has not changed, yet the thrower's ability to launch an otherwise unassuming bit of plastic has.

I have no objection to the notion of coupling Distance Strike + Killing Hands + Hands of Flame (oh goody, a reason to look up another book )

However, none of this applies directly to magic interacting with a held object. In fact, that all but violates the concept of the physical adept who uses his (or her) schtick to channel magic into the adept's body.

I will grant you there are examples that don't fit exactly within the parameters of what a Physical Adept is - Traceless Step, for example. Distance Strike for another.

A GM is more than welcome to house-rule anything he wants to - up to and including adepts being able to shape-shift into a dragon for a round for the express purpose of killing an NPC at Deadly. But in my opinion, an adept developing a "Fatality! Killing Blow" has more basis in canon then super-charging held weapons.

-Siege