Revised Jumping rules, Let's make it reasonable Options

[Buzzed]

I have an idea about jumping. Quickness, cyberware, and magical abilities can determine the maximum distance a character can jump. This is reasonable. However, the difficulty of the jump becomes very absurd at longer distances. If you have the ability to jump 14 meters, your target number is 14. Your chances of making this jump with 20 dice is very slim. Therefore the character doesnt really have the ability to jump 14 meters, as the enhancements fool the player into thinking. It only gives them the opportunity to attempt it.

To fix this issue, I have come up with a simple way to determine more resonable target numbers. Since Jumping is about distance, I will use the firearm target number system. The four possible ranges of a jump and the base target numbers are: Short(TN 2), Medium(TN 4), Long(TN 6), and Extreme(TN 9). To determine the range of a jump a character is attempting, simply divide the characters maximum jumping distance capability by 4. The resulting number is the number of meters in the jump for Short range. Add that number again to calculate Medium range, add it again for Long range, and once more for Extreme range.

Example:
Bob has the ability to jump 10 meters. He attempts to jump 6 meters. Bob divides 10 by 4 and gets 2.5. So Bob's jumping range is 2.5 / 5 / 7.5 / 10. Bob is attempting a Long range jump. Therefore his base target number for the jump is 6.

With a character that attaempts to jump his maximum distance, their base target number for the jump is always 9 (Extreme range), regardless of how long it is.

This rule does screw characters over with low quickness though. A quickness 3 character would have a TN 9 for a 3 meter jump. A simple solution for this would be to allow the original jumping rule and this rule as an option by the player. So the 3 quickness character would only have a TN 3 for his 3 meter jump using the original rule.

Does this new optional jumping rule sound reasonable, or is it too soft?

[Kagetenshi]

Keeping in mind that that is a ~46-foot jump, I’d be just fine leaving the TN as 14.

~J

[Tanka]

[Kagetenshi]

It seemed that Buzzed was underestimating the full distance of a jump like that (for reference, I can jump from a standing position about two meters, and from running probably about three, or about one meter straight up from a standing position (well, slightly forward but mostly up)). Given that unit confusion is a frequent source of such misestimations, I decided that converting might clear the air a bit.

~J

[Buzzed]

I am well aware of the etreme distance of 14 meters. Sure it's not normal for a dude to jump 46 feet. But then again its also not normal for a dude to take 7 bullets in the chest without a scratch, which is not uncommon in this game.

I was noting the impossible odds of making such a jump, regardless of if you have the ability to do it or not. It's a paradox, you can do it, but you can't. I don't care if you have the ability to jump 100,000 meters or 1 meter. If statistically it is impossible to do it, even though you invested essence and magical resources, then what is the point of getting the magical ablity to jump 100,000 meters?

[Kagetenshi]

You've got a 5/216 chance of making it the full 14 meters. At somewhat under 2.5%, that’s very far from statistically impossible.

Edit: on a single die, no less! Your 20-die adept will make it slightly under half the time.

~J

[Buzzed]

[Kagetenshi]

At just under 13% odds for 6 dice, it ain't bad either.
~J

[Tanka]

[Buzzed]

[Kagetenshi]

Which is why they succeed more than one time in ten.

~J

[KeyMasterOfGozer]

I think you guys are missing Buzzed's point. I don't neccessarily like his rule change, but it does make a lot of sense. Let me also preface my argument by saying that I don't have the book with me, and I may not know the jumkp rules exactly.

You are right that jumping 46 feet is impossible for a normal person or even an olympic athlete, however, Buzzed is talking about someone who is Cybered or Magiked up to perform far greater than even todays Olympic atheletes. AN Olympic Athlete would have a quickness of 7 or maybe 8, but Buzzed is talking about someone with a quickness of 14.

Ok, the world record is 8.95 meters held by Mike Powell from 1991 in Tokyo. This years leadinig distance is 8.60 meters, with Junior at 8.35 and youth at 8.25.

THis makes it seem to me that maybe IF someone is enhanced to twice as fast, this distance, which is only 60% more might be possible to do.

So, are you rolling your Atheletics Skill verses the TN to determine success, or are you rolling you quickness?

If you are rolling your Athletics dice, then Buzzes method makes much more sense. IF you are rolling Quickness, then maybe it makes less sense.

I would say that Buzzed's method rolling Athletics skill would make sense, because it pitts your skill against how difficult a challenge it should be. It should seem obvious that Someone who can run much faster should have an easier time jumping a farther distance.

If you are rolling quickness...
I did some crappy statistics with mcmackie's SRDiceRoller...
Rolling 14 at TN 14 produced a success roughly every 3rd or 4th roll
Rolling 14 at TN 9 produce no successes roughly every 3rd roll

I don't know, it seems to me that Buzzed is right to complain, but I'm not sure if his new target number might produce too many successes.

I don't know, maybe I'm retarded.

[Kagetenshi]

I really disagree that it's a valid complaint. How many times do you reach your true maximum potential at any given task? If anything, I'd add some dice to the test. The TN is fine where it is.

~J

[KeyMasterOfGozer]

[Kagetenshi]

I disagree that the "fail by less" argument supports his assertion. I can only jump about two meters without some serious training (and probably increasing my Quickness). However, it would take some impressive circumstances to make me jump significantly less than that. By any reasonable standard, I haven't failed. The same cannot be said for an olympic athlete; their normal margin of error in jumping is significant.

~J

[Austere Emancipa...]

Jumpy "Bunny" Wabbit, Night One adept.
Q 14
Muscle Toner-4, Suprathyroid, Hydraulic Jacks-5, Enhanced Artwinkulation, Reflex Rec/Athletics, Great Leap-6, IA:Athletics-6, Athletics/Jumping-5/7
Maximum jumping distance: 40 meters
# Dice on Athletics/Jumping tests: 26

Expected jumping distance when character is attempting to jump as far as he can (expected highest roll ~ 13.6 divided by two, rounded down): 6 meters

Probability of managing a 6-meter jump: ~99%
Probability of managing a 10-meter jump: ~90%
Probability of managing a 12-meter jump: ~52%
Probability of managing a 16-meter jump: ~30%
Probability of managing an 18-meter jump: ~11%
22 meters: ~6%
24 meters: ~2%
28 meters: ~1%
30 meters: ~0.33%
34 meters: ~0.17%
36 meters: ~0.06%
40 meters: ~0.03%

In other words, the largest hole in the ground the character would be rather comfortable jumping over would be 10 meters. You could drop the Hydraulic Jacks, the Great Leap power, the Muscle Toner, the Suprathyroid Gland and 3 points of unaugmented Quickness and the expected jumping distance would still stay the same.

In other words, I think it's a valid complaint. The current rules make it insanely difficult to jump unnaturally long distances, even though ware like Hydraulic Jacks and powers like Great Leap are obviously there to allow for it. I don't know if I like Buzzed's house rule suggestion too much, but I would certainly like to have a quick rules fix that made those really long jumps possible.

[Edit]Forgot about AttrBoost:QUI-6. This increases the max jumping distance to 52 meters, with the following probabilities:
42 meters: ~0.01%
46+ meters: less than 0.005%
Just like Jumpy's Muscle Toner, Suprathyroid Gland and extremely high unaugmented Quickness, this does not increase the expected jumping distance at all.[/Edit]

[Edit #2]Crap, he's got one too many dice. He can't have IA:Athletics-6 when his skill is Athletics/Jumping-5/7. Can't be bothered to change the figures now. It won't matter much in this case, the difference between 25 and 26 dice is insignificant.[/Edit #2]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Sep 14 2004, 07:04 PM

[Kagetenshi]

Having an over-10% chance of jumping further than 18 meters is impressive enough, in my opinion.

To put it another way, to have a total flight time of 1 second would require the character to be moving forward at about 40 miles per hour while jumping 18 meters.

Let's see. v2=v1+aT, so 0=v1+9.81*.5, so initial velocity of 4.905 m/s upwards (which equals just under 11 mph upwards, too).

So then we've got time and starting velocity. How far up does überjumber go?

d=v1*t+1/2*a*t^2, so d=4.905*.5+.5*9.81*.5^2, which, providing I haven't screwed up anywhere, gives us 3.67875 meters.

Edit: I did screw up. Acceleration's negative there (and up above, though my answer's correct despite that), so it's only 1.22625 meters. I guess the speed is my biggest argument.

So, still think it should be easy to jump further?

~J

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Kagetenshi]

I don't have my copy of SRComp on hand; what're the effects of failing the test?

~J

[Austere Emancipa...]

There is no set result. It only says it "may result in a fall" (as per Falling rules). Most likely you should then use the highest dice roll, divide it by two, round down, and the character falls flat on his face/ass there.

It's less unhealthy than I remembered though. It would make sense for this character to always try to jump perhaps 10 meters or 11 meters, if there is no additional Bad Stuff about falling flat at 4 meters.

[Buzzed]

Ok I can see how my base TN's could be too soft. How about 2 / 4 / 6 / 10 ? Or 3 / 5 / 8 / 10 ? or 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 ?

I was also thinking about modifiers.

Narrow landing +1 (Applied if the target landing area is only 1 meter wide for a 10 meter jump perhaps) Like leaping off of the side of a ship to land on the end of a tiny dock for example. Could also give +1 if the ship was moving or rocking.

This system allows for more role playing creativity if you ask me. If you think a task is too easy, modifiers can be a gm's best friend.

[Kagetenshi]

Personally, I'd rule that no successes lands them within a few meters of their target, but that they fall prone on the landing and possibly take damage depending on the surface. Then again, people may want a harder way to determine that.

~J

[ShadowGhost]

Why not adjust the Houserule TNs sfor jumping lightly - say distance you want to jump minus 1/2(round down) your quickness?

So a jump of 14M with a quickness of 8 gives you 14-(8/2) or 14-4 = TN of 10. Still challenging, but not improbable.

[Kagetenshi]

With six dice, you're hitting that half the time. Not bad.

I'd say either that or add Quickness in dice to the test.

~J

[Buzzed]

Ok what about the 40 meter jump? How would that help?