IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Revised Jumping rules, Let's make it reasonable
Buzzed
post Sep 14 2004, 01:13 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-June 03
Member No.: 4,782



I have an idea about jumping. Quickness, cyberware, and magical abilities can determine the maximum distance a character can jump. This is reasonable. However, the difficulty of the jump becomes very absurd at longer distances. If you have the ability to jump 14 meters, your target number is 14. Your chances of making this jump with 20 dice is very slim. Therefore the character doesnt really have the ability to jump 14 meters, as the enhancements fool the player into thinking. It only gives them the opportunity to attempt it.

To fix this issue, I have come up with a simple way to determine more resonable target numbers. Since Jumping is about distance, I will use the firearm target number system. The four possible ranges of a jump and the base target numbers are: Short(TN 2), Medium(TN 4), Long(TN 6), and Extreme(TN 9). To determine the range of a jump a character is attempting, simply divide the characters maximum jumping distance capability by 4. The resulting number is the number of meters in the jump for Short range. Add that number again to calculate Medium range, add it again for Long range, and once more for Extreme range.

Example:
Bob has the ability to jump 10 meters. He attempts to jump 6 meters. Bob divides 10 by 4 and gets 2.5. So Bob's jumping range is 2.5 / 5 / 7.5 / 10. Bob is attempting a Long range jump. Therefore his base target number for the jump is 6.

With a character that attaempts to jump his maximum distance, their base target number for the jump is always 9 (Extreme range), regardless of how long it is.

This rule does screw characters over with low quickness though. A quickness 3 character would have a TN 9 for a 3 meter jump. A simple solution for this would be to allow the original jumping rule and this rule as an option by the player. So the 3 quickness character would only have a TN 3 for his 3 meter jump using the original rule.

Does this new optional jumping rule sound reasonable, or is it too soft?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Sep 14 2004, 02:33 PM
Post #2


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Keeping in mind that that is a ~46-foot jump, Iíd be just fine leaving the TN as 14.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tanka
post Sep 14 2004, 02:51 PM
Post #3


Chrome to the Core
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,152
Joined: 14-October 03
From: ::1
Member No.: 5,715



QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Keeping in mind that that is a ~46-foot jump, Iíd be just fine leaving the TN as 14.

~J

Meters, feet, who's counting? :silly:

Yeah, leave the TNs as-is. I don't want to see any wannabe rabbits bouncing around Seattle.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Sep 14 2004, 02:57 PM
Post #4


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



It seemed that Buzzed was underestimating the full distance of a jump like that (for reference, I can jump from a standing position about two meters, and from running probably about three, or about one meter straight up from a standing position (well, slightly forward but mostly up)). Given that unit confusion is a frequent source of such misestimations, I decided that converting might clear the air a bit.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Buzzed
post Sep 14 2004, 04:46 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-June 03
Member No.: 4,782



I am well aware of the etreme distance of 14 meters. Sure it's not normal for a dude to jump 46 feet. But then again its also not normal for a dude to take 7 bullets in the chest without a scratch, which is not uncommon in this game.

I was noting the impossible odds of making such a jump, regardless of if you have the ability to do it or not. It's a paradox, you can do it, but you can't. I don't care if you have the ability to jump 100,000 meters or 1 meter. If statistically it is impossible to do it, even though you invested essence and magical resources, then what is the point of getting the magical ablity to jump 100,000 meters?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Sep 14 2004, 05:07 PM
Post #6


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



You've got a 5/216 chance of making it the full 14 meters. At somewhat under 2.5%, thatís very far from statistically impossible.

Edit: on a single die, no less! Your 20-die adept will make it slightly under half the time.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Buzzed
post Sep 14 2004, 05:12 PM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-June 03
Member No.: 4,782



QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 14 2004, 01:07 PM)
You've got a 5/216 chance of making it the full 14 meters. At somewhat under 2.5%, thatís very far from statistically impossible.

Edit: on a single die, no less! Your 20-die adept will make it slightly under half the time.

~J

Statistically its not too good.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Sep 14 2004, 05:15 PM
Post #8


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



At just under 13% odds for 6 dice, it ain't bad either.
~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tanka
post Sep 14 2004, 05:21 PM
Post #9


Chrome to the Core
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,152
Joined: 14-October 03
From: ::1
Member No.: 5,715



QUOTE (Buzzed)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 14 2004, 01:07 PM)
You've got a 5/216 chance of making it the full 14 meters. At somewhat under 2.5%, thatís very far from statistically impossible.

Edit: on a single die, no less! Your 20-die adept will make it slightly under half the time.

~J

Statistically its not too good.

You try jumping 14 meters. Not so easy, is it?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Buzzed
post Sep 14 2004, 05:27 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-June 03
Member No.: 4,782



QUOTE (tanka)
QUOTE (Buzzed @ Sep 14 2004, 04:12 PM)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Sep 14 2004, 01:07 PM)
You've got a 5/216 chance of making it the full 14 meters. At somewhat under 2.5%, thatís very far from statistically impossible.

Edit: on a single die, no less! Your 20-die adept will make it slightly under half the time.

~J

Statistically its not too good.

You try jumping 14 meters. Not so easy, is it?

If I had some souped up cyberlegs or could use magic, it would help.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Sep 14 2004, 05:29 PM
Post #11


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Which is why they succeed more than one time in ten.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KeyMasterOfGozer
post Sep 14 2004, 05:46 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 239
Joined: 10-February 04
Member No.: 6,068



I think you guys are missing Buzzed's point. I don't neccessarily like his rule change, but it does make a lot of sense. Let me also preface my argument by saying that I don't have the book with me, and I may not know the jumkp rules exactly.

You are right that jumping 46 feet is impossible for a normal person or even an olympic athlete, however, Buzzed is talking about someone who is Cybered or Magiked up to perform far greater than even todays Olympic atheletes. AN Olympic Athlete would have a quickness of 7 or maybe 8, but Buzzed is talking about someone with a quickness of 14.

Ok, the world record is 8.95 meters held by Mike Powell from 1991 in Tokyo. This years leadinig distance is 8.60 meters, with Junior at 8.35 and youth at 8.25.

THis makes it seem to me that maybe IF someone is enhanced to twice as fast, this distance, which is only 60% more might be possible to do.

So, are you rolling your Atheletics Skill verses the TN to determine success, or are you rolling you quickness?

If you are rolling your Athletics dice, then Buzzes method makes much more sense. IF you are rolling Quickness, then maybe it makes less sense.

I would say that Buzzed's method rolling Athletics skill would make sense, because it pitts your skill against how difficult a challenge it should be. It should seem obvious that Someone who can run much faster should have an easier time jumping a farther distance.

If you are rolling quickness...
I did some crappy statistics with mcmackie's SRDiceRoller...
Rolling 14 at TN 14 produced a success roughly every 3rd or 4th roll
Rolling 14 at TN 9 produce no successes roughly every 3rd roll

I don't know, it seems to me that Buzzed is right to complain, but I'm not sure if his new target number might produce too many successes.

I don't know, maybe I'm retarded.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Sep 14 2004, 05:51 PM
Post #13


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



I really disagree that it's a valid complaint. How many times do you reach your true maximum potential at any given task? If anything, I'd add some dice to the test. The TN is fine where it is.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KeyMasterOfGozer
post Sep 14 2004, 06:12 PM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 239
Joined: 10-February 04
Member No.: 6,068



QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I really disagree that it's a valid complaint. How many times do you reach your true maximum potential at any given task? If anything, I'd add some dice to the test. The TN is fine where it is.

~J

It may indeed be unlikely that I reach my true potential in anything, but that's not the question. The question is: The higher your potential goes, is it exponentially harder to reach your potential?

If a person has a potential of only jumping 3 feet, why should they have a better chance of fulfilling that potential than someone who has the potential to jump 6 feet? I can see where you might say they might fail by less, because that's a percentage value of their potential, but that only supports Buzzed's assertion.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Sep 14 2004, 06:25 PM
Post #15


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



I disagree that the "fail by less" argument supports his assertion. I can only jump about two meters without some serious training (and probably increasing my Quickness). However, it would take some impressive circumstances to make me jump significantly less than that. By any reasonable standard, I haven't failed. The same cannot be said for an olympic athlete; their normal margin of error in jumping is significant.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 14 2004, 06:27 PM
Post #16


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



Jumpy "Bunny" Wabbit, Night One adept.
Q 14
Muscle Toner-4, Suprathyroid, Hydraulic Jacks-5, Enhanced Artwinkulation, Reflex Rec/Athletics, Great Leap-6, IA:Athletics-6, Athletics/Jumping-5/7
Maximum jumping distance: 40 meters
# Dice on Athletics/Jumping tests: 26

Expected jumping distance when character is attempting to jump as far as he can (expected highest roll ~ 13.6 divided by two, rounded down): 6 meters

Probability of managing a 6-meter jump: ~99%
Probability of managing a 10-meter jump: ~90%
Probability of managing a 12-meter jump: ~52%
Probability of managing a 16-meter jump: ~30%
Probability of managing an 18-meter jump: ~11%
22 meters: ~6%
24 meters: ~2%
28 meters: ~1%
30 meters: ~0.33%
34 meters: ~0.17%
36 meters: ~0.06%
40 meters: ~0.03%

In other words, the largest hole in the ground the character would be rather comfortable jumping over would be 10 meters. You could drop the Hydraulic Jacks, the Great Leap power, the Muscle Toner, the Suprathyroid Gland and 3 points of unaugmented Quickness and the expected jumping distance would still stay the same.

In other words, I think it's a valid complaint. The current rules make it insanely difficult to jump unnaturally long distances, even though ware like Hydraulic Jacks and powers like Great Leap are obviously there to allow for it. I don't know if I like Buzzed's house rule suggestion too much, but I would certainly like to have a quick rules fix that made those really long jumps possible.

[Edit]Forgot about AttrBoost:QUI-6. This increases the max jumping distance to 52 meters, with the following probabilities:
42 meters: ~0.01%
46+ meters: less than 0.005%
Just like Jumpy's Muscle Toner, Suprathyroid Gland and extremely high unaugmented Quickness, this does not increase the expected jumping distance at all.[/Edit]

[Edit #2]Crap, he's got one too many dice. He can't have IA:Athletics-6 when his skill is Athletics/Jumping-5/7. Can't be bothered to change the figures now. It won't matter much in this case, the difference between 25 and 26 dice is insignificant.[/Edit #2]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Sep 14 2004, 07:04 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Sep 14 2004, 07:40 PM
Post #17


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Having an over-10% chance of jumping further than 18 meters is impressive enough, in my opinion.

To put it another way, to have a total flight time of 1 second would require the character to be moving forward at about 40 miles per hour while jumping 18 meters.

Let's see. v2=v1+aT, so 0=v1+9.81*.5, so initial velocity of 4.905 m/s upwards (which equals just under 11 mph upwards, too).

So then we've got time and starting velocity. How far up does Łberjumber go?

d=v1*t+1/2*a*t^2, so d=4.905*.5+.5*9.81*.5^2, which, providing I haven't screwed up anywhere, gives us 3.67875 meters.

Edit: I did screw up. Acceleration's negative there (and up above, though my answer's correct despite that), so it's only 1.22625 meters. I guess the speed is my biggest argument.

So, still think it should be easy to jump further?

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 14 2004, 08:00 PM
Post #18


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Having an over-10% chance of jumping further than 18 meters is impressive enough, in my opinion.

Remember that what it really means is that the character has an 11% chance of making an 18 meter jump. With a 89% chance of failing miserably, most people would never risk it. The most important bit here is the "jumping for distance" situation, where we're expecting a jump of 6 meters.

The character is inhumanely quick to begin with -- he's then implanted with the best possible ware to make him as fast as the humanoid physical form can handle, extremely powerful hydraulic jacks are implanted in his legs, and he is highly magical, channeling all that energy into making him jump further.

His expected sprinting speed would be 66 m/CT, 79.2km/h, nearly 50mph. Any physics-stuff should take into account the possible additional acceleration at the time of jump from the hydraulic jacks, as well as the magical effects of both the Improved Ability: Athletics and especially the Great Leap powers.

Yes, I still think it should be easier to jump further.

[Edit]A quick, simple trajectory calculation with velocity of 22 meters/second at an angle of 15 degrees gives a jumped distance of ~24.7 meters in ~1.2 seconds, reaching a height of ~1.7 meters in the middle. And that's without the additional boost from the hydraulic jacks, IA:Athletics and Great Leap.[/Edit]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Sep 14 2004, 08:22 PM
Post #19


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



I don't have my copy of SRComp on hand; what're the effects of failing the test?

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Austere Emancipa...
post Sep 14 2004, 08:28 PM
Post #20


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,889
Joined: 3-August 03
From: A CPI rank 1 country
Member No.: 5,222



There is no set result. It only says it "may result in a fall" (as per Falling rules). Most likely you should then use the highest dice roll, divide it by two, round down, and the character falls flat on his face/ass there.

It's less unhealthy than I remembered though. It would make sense for this character to always try to jump perhaps 10 meters or 11 meters, if there is no additional Bad Stuff about falling flat at 4 meters.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Buzzed
post Sep 14 2004, 09:34 PM
Post #21


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-June 03
Member No.: 4,782



Ok I can see how my base TN's could be too soft. How about 2 / 4 / 6 / 10 ? Or 3 / 5 / 8 / 10 ? or 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 ?

I was also thinking about modifiers.

Narrow landing +1 (Applied if the target landing area is only 1 meter wide for a 10 meter jump perhaps) Like leaping off of the side of a ship to land on the end of a tiny dock for example. Could also give +1 if the ship was moving or rocking.

This system allows for more role playing creativity if you ask me. If you think a task is too easy, modifiers can be a gm's best friend.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Sep 14 2004, 10:37 PM
Post #22


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Personally, I'd rule that no successes lands them within a few meters of their target, but that they fall prone on the landing and possibly take damage depending on the surface. Then again, people may want a harder way to determine that.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ShadowGhost
post Sep 15 2004, 10:59 AM
Post #23


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 376
Joined: 14-July 03
Member No.: 4,928



Why not adjust the Houserule TNs sfor jumping lightly - say distance you want to jump minus 1/2(round down) your quickness?

So a jump of 14M with a quickness of 8 gives you 14-(8/2) or 14-4 = TN of 10. Still challenging, but not improbable.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Sep 15 2004, 11:04 AM
Post #24


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 16,888
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



With six dice, you're hitting that half the time. Not bad.

I'd say either that or add Quickness in dice to the test.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Buzzed
post Sep 15 2004, 12:38 PM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-June 03
Member No.: 4,782



Ok what about the 40 meter jump? How would that help?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 27th October 2020 - 03:40 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.