I have an idea about jumping. Quickness, cyberware, and magical abilities can determine the maximum distance a character can jump. This is reasonable. However, the difficulty of the jump becomes very absurd at longer distances. If you have the ability to jump 14 meters, your target number is 14. Your chances of making this jump with 20 dice is very slim. Therefore the character doesnt really have the ability to jump 14 meters, as the enhancements fool the player into thinking. It only gives them the opportunity to attempt it.

To fix this issue, I have come up with a simple way to determine more resonable target numbers. Since Jumping is about distance, I will use the firearm target number system. The four possible ranges of a jump and the base target numbers are: Short(TN 2), Medium(TN 4), Long(TN 6), and Extreme(TN 9). To determine the range of a jump a character is attempting, simply divide the characters maximum jumping distance capability by 4. The resulting number is the number of meters in the jump for Short range. Add that number again to calculate Medium range, add it again for Long range, and once more for Extreme range.

Example:
Bob has the ability to jump 10 meters. He attempts to jump 6 meters. Bob divides 10 by 4 and gets 2.5. So Bob's jumping range is 2.5 / 5 / 7.5 / 10. Bob is attempting a Long range jump. Therefore his base target number for the jump is 6.

With a character that attaempts to jump his maximum distance, their base target number for the jump is always 9 (Extreme range), regardless of how long it is.

This rule does screw characters over with low quickness though. A quickness 3 character would have a TN 9 for a 3 meter jump. A simple solution for this would be to allow the original jumping rule and this rule as an option by the player. So the 3 quickness character would only have a TN 3 for his 3 meter jump using the original rule.

Does this new optional jumping rule sound reasonable, or is it too soft?

Keeping in mind that that is a ~46-foot jump, I’d be just fine leaving the TN as 14.

~J

It seemed that Buzzed was underestimating the full distance of a jump like that (for reference, I can jump from a standing position about two meters, and from running probably about three, or about one meter straight up from a standing position (well, slightly forward but mostly up)). Given that unit confusion is a frequent source of such misestimations, I decided that converting might clear the air a bit.

~J

I am well aware of the etreme distance of 14 meters. Sure it's not normal for a dude to jump 46 feet. But then again its also not normal for a dude to take 7 bullets in the chest without a scratch, which is not uncommon in this game.

I was noting the impossible odds of making such a jump, regardless of if you have the ability to do it or not. It's a paradox, you can do it, but you can't. I don't care if you have the ability to jump 100,000 meters or 1 meter. If statistically it is impossible to do it, even though you invested essence and magical resources, then what is the point of getting the magical ablity to jump 100,000 meters?

You've got a 5/216 chance of making it the full 14 meters. At somewhat under 2.5%, that’s very far from statistically impossible.

Edit: on a single die, no less! Your 20-die adept will make it slightly under half the time.

~J

At just under 13% odds for 6 dice, it ain't bad either.
~J

Which is why they succeed more than one time in ten.

~J

I think you guys are missing Buzzed's point. I don't neccessarily like his rule change, but it does make a lot of sense. Let me also preface my argument by saying that I don't have the book with me, and I may not know the jumkp rules exactly.

You are right that jumping 46 feet is impossible for a normal person or even an olympic athlete, however, Buzzed is talking about someone who is Cybered or Magiked up to perform far greater than even todays Olympic atheletes. AN Olympic Athlete would have a quickness of 7 or maybe 8, but Buzzed is talking about someone with a quickness of 14.

Ok, the world record is 8.95 meters held by Mike Powell from 1991 in Tokyo. This years leadinig distance is 8.60 meters, with Junior at 8.35 and youth at 8.25.

THis makes it seem to me that maybe IF someone is enhanced to twice as fast, this distance, which is only 60% more might be possible to do.

So, are you rolling your Atheletics Skill verses the TN to determine success, or are you rolling you quickness?

If you are rolling your Athletics dice, then Buzzes method makes much more sense. IF you are rolling Quickness, then maybe it makes less sense.

I would say that Buzzed's method rolling Athletics skill would make sense, because it pitts your skill against how difficult a challenge it should be. It should seem obvious that Someone who can run much faster should have an easier time jumping a farther distance.

If you are rolling quickness...
I did some crappy statistics with mcmackie's SRDiceRoller...
Rolling 14 at TN 14 produced a success roughly every 3rd or 4th roll
Rolling 14 at TN 9 produce no successes roughly every 3rd roll

I don't know, it seems to me that Buzzed is right to complain, but I'm not sure if his new target number might produce too many successes.

I don't know, maybe I'm retarded.

I really disagree that it's a valid complaint. How many times do you reach your true maximum potential at any given task? If anything, I'd add some dice to the test. The TN is fine where it is.

~J

I disagree that the "fail by less" argument supports his assertion. I can only jump about two meters without some serious training (and probably increasing my Quickness). However, it would take some impressive circumstances to make me jump significantly less than that. By any reasonable standard, I haven't failed. The same cannot be said for an olympic athlete; their normal margin of error in jumping is significant.

~J

Jumpy "Bunny" Wabbit, Night One adept.
Q 14
Muscle Toner-4, Suprathyroid, Hydraulic Jacks-5, Enhanced Artwinkulation, Reflex Rec/Athletics, Great Leap-6, IA:Athletics-6, Athletics/Jumping-5/7
Maximum jumping distance: 40 meters
# Dice on Athletics/Jumping tests: 26

Expected jumping distance when character is attempting to jump as far as he can (expected highest roll ~ 13.6 divided by two, rounded down): 6 meters

Probability of managing a 6-meter jump: ~99%
Probability of managing a 10-meter jump: ~90%
Probability of managing a 12-meter jump: ~52%
Probability of managing a 16-meter jump: ~30%
Probability of managing an 18-meter jump: ~11%
22 meters: ~6%
24 meters: ~2%
28 meters: ~1%
30 meters: ~0.33%
34 meters: ~0.17%
36 meters: ~0.06%
40 meters: ~0.03%

In other words, the largest hole in the ground the character would be rather comfortable jumping over would be 10 meters. You could drop the Hydraulic Jacks, the Great Leap power, the Muscle Toner, the Suprathyroid Gland and 3 points of unaugmented Quickness and the expected jumping distance would still stay the same.

In other words, I think it's a valid complaint. The current rules make it insanely difficult to jump unnaturally long distances, even though ware like Hydraulic Jacks and powers like Great Leap are obviously there to allow for it. I don't know if I like Buzzed's house rule suggestion too much, but I would certainly like to have a quick rules fix that made those really long jumps possible.

[Edit]Forgot about AttrBoost:QUI-6. This increases the max jumping distance to 52 meters, with the following probabilities:
42 meters: ~0.01%
46+ meters: less than 0.005%
Just like Jumpy's Muscle Toner, Suprathyroid Gland and extremely high unaugmented Quickness, this does not increase the expected jumping distance at all.[/Edit]

[Edit #2]Crap, he's got one too many dice. He can't have IA:Athletics-6 when his skill is Athletics/Jumping-5/7. Can't be bothered to change the figures now. It won't matter much in this case, the difference between 25 and 26 dice is insignificant.[/Edit #2]

Having an over-10% chance of jumping further than 18 meters is impressive enough, in my opinion.

To put it another way, to have a total flight time of 1 second would require the character to be moving forward at about 40 miles per hour while jumping 18 meters.

Let's see. v2=v1+aT, so 0=v1+9.81*.5, so initial velocity of 4.905 m/s upwards (which equals just under 11 mph upwards, too).

So then we've got time and starting velocity. How far up does überjumber go?

d=v1*t+1/2*a*t^2, so d=4.905*.5+.5*9.81*.5^2, which, providing I haven't screwed up anywhere, gives us 3.67875 meters.

Edit: I did screw up. Acceleration's negative there (and up above, though my answer's correct despite that), so it's only 1.22625 meters. I guess the speed is my biggest argument.

So, still think it should be easy to jump further?

~J

I don't have my copy of SRComp on hand; what're the effects of failing the test?

~J

There is no set result. It only says it "may result in a fall" (as per Falling rules). Most likely you should then use the highest dice roll, divide it by two, round down, and the character falls flat on his face/ass there.

It's less unhealthy than I remembered though. It would make sense for this character to always try to jump perhaps 10 meters or 11 meters, if there is no additional Bad Stuff about falling flat at 4 meters.

Ok I can see how my base TN's could be too soft. How about 2 / 4 / 6 / 10 ? Or 3 / 5 / 8 / 10 ? or 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 ?

I was also thinking about modifiers.

Narrow landing +1 (Applied if the target landing area is only 1 meter wide for a 10 meter jump perhaps) Like leaping off of the side of a ship to land on the end of a tiny dock for example. Could also give +1 if the ship was moving or rocking.

This system allows for more role playing creativity if you ask me. If you think a task is too easy, modifiers can be a gm's best friend.

Personally, I'd rule that no successes lands them within a few meters of their target, but that they fall prone on the landing and possibly take damage depending on the surface. Then again, people may want a harder way to determine that.

~J

Why not adjust the Houserule TNs sfor jumping lightly - say distance you want to jump minus 1/2(round down) your quickness?

So a jump of 14M with a quickness of 8 gives you 14-(8/2) or 14-4 = TN of 10. Still challenging, but not improbable.

With six dice, you're hitting that half the time. Not bad.

I'd say either that or add Quickness in dice to the test.

~J

Ok what about the 40 meter jump? How would that help?

It wouldn't. Neither of those suggestions would give Mr Wabbit a decent chance of jumping 40 meters, let alone 52. The first suggestion (TN = distance - QUI/2) would make 18 meters manageable and 24 meters not-so-rare, but anything beyond that would still be extremely unlikely. The second (+QUI dice in Jumping tests) would help even less, increasing the chances of succeeding in the extremely long jumps by about half of what the first suggestion would. Rolling 40-ish dice for jumping would be fun, though.

Unless I’m forgetting something, it does cover all values of quickness. It just doesn’t make them all easy to achieve.

I have absolutely no problem, as I have previously stated, with a 40-meter jump being difficult. If you remember, I balked over making the 18-meter easier.

~J

And the proposed revisions (both –(QCK/2) to TN and +QCK to dice) both address that. Perhaps not as much as you would like, but enough as far as I’m concerned..

~J

No need to continue to argue with Kagetenshi, Buzzed. His mind is set. Apparently in his world of physics, a bullet traveling at 600MPH from the barrel of a gun will have a 0.00025% chance of making it 50ft.

Apparently when Motorcycles jump 40meters while hitting the ramp at 75MPH(QCK 34) doesn't demonstrate that maybe these super human speeds might change his fixed distances.

Even if you negate getting a higher vertical leap, you still stay in the air for the same amount of time. Logic tells you that if you are travelling twice as fast for the same amount of time, you will go twice as far.

However, I would say that since vertical leap comes from "Explosive" action of the muscles rather than strength, I would say higher QCK would undoubtedly give more Vertical Leap.

I say your (Buzzed) ranged weapon type approach is far better and more realistic, with the exception that if someone defaults to tonnes of QCK dice instead of rolling Jumping Skill, then maybe a +4 modifier is not good enough. However, this same problem would come up with a person having a high QCK and no Pistol skill.

Double-checking, because I'm not sure how everything added up back there: what's the expected running speed with your bunny?

~J

Cool. Thanks ShadowGhost. Do you happen to know where I can find that rule, because it helps with lots of potential wierd loopholes I've thought of based on Defaulting with a really high Stat.

For instance:
Statistically 6dice at TN 4 is similar to 15dice at TN 8 for number of successes.

What this means is that the person with a 15 Stat can perform any skill based on that stat with as much proficiency as an expert in that particular skill. Even with no knowlege of the subject or never having seen it before.

So... If that 15 was QCK, he could Lock-Pick like a Pro, Shoot pistols or rifles Dead-eye, and Out perform a professional athelete at his own sport, all without having ever seen these things before.

That's a loop hole that would be plugged up with the "No Defaulting over TN 8" rule.

I also did not know about the 8 TN rule for defaulting. Good to know.

Should I post this thread in the main Shadowrun section? I am beginning to think this would get more input if posted there. The more brains working on this, the more ideas can come together to make a rule that works for everyone.

Limits on Defaulting is on page 85 BBB, left side, half way down.

Defaulting on open tests is even worse..... subtract the defaulting modifier from the highest die roll - so if you roll fives or less...... Rule of Ones applies!

Also Defaulting has different TN modifiers;
From Skill to Skill: +2
From Skill to Specialization: +3
From Skill to base attribute: +4
Page (84-85, BBB)

Nope, rule of 1 only applies when 1s are rolled, not when dice are modified to 1s.

~J

Ok, there are three separate issues that can be resolved here.

Number one is distance based on speed. This is the main one people are worried about. If all you care about is pure distance, I'd go with the gun-ranges-style rule. Your character travels twice as fast, he can make twice the jump at the same difficulty. I'd tweak the ranging system a little (rather than 4 equal-sized chunks) but it's a good quick-and-dirty system.

Number two is accuracy. You jump twice as far, if you're a little off in your direction you'll be twice as far off in your landing. For this, I'd add in Grenade-style bounce and use some fraction of distance jumped (distance/2 or 3 sounds reasonable) for how much you miss the target by. Successes on the jump test reduce the spread. This makes number of dice important for long jumps, even if the distance is "easy" for your character. This also makes that longer jump more difficult or easier depending on what direction you miss by.

Number three is cyberware and magic that should provide massively increased jumping ability (but don't under current rules). If you want to use the present rule system, use the ability as a divisor or direct reduction of the TN in addition to providing the usual increase of distance and dice bonus (I don't have my books in front of me, that's just what I remember those things doing). For an alternate system, you'd have to detemrine what was appropriate. I'd say they should emphatically not help reduce the spread potential. They are overdrives on your body, they cause you to move in ways that the human body is not really designed to handle. They will indirectly reduce spread by lowering your base TN for normal jumps, but the extended range ones should be hard to control.

For a final alternative, turn jumping into a pure open test. That should be fun.

Ok... I'm not sure if it's been put this way... a bit distracted... but let's ignore solid probabilities and all for a moment.

Jimmy the Stooge is just a normal guy, he can jump 4m;
NinjaGuy is an adept, with muay powers for jumping, and can jump 25m.

Ignore that Ninja is augmented and consider this... if this was a natural fact he could jump 25m, he still has a max he can jump, just like Jimmy. How is is then that he can never reach that maximum; why bother saying he can jump that far if he's never going to? It's a flawed rule by that simple logic alone: you can jump what you can jump. Just like firing a gun. The base TN for shooting doesn't raise with more skill, so why should it for jumping?

I think Digital Heroin is agrees that the jumping rule needs to be changed.

Reading through it again, it seems like he might indeed, I think I misread "raise" as "fall". He's just approaching it from a different angle. In which case my above message doesn't make a whole lot of sense (editing it a bit now...). Yeah, if you accept the maximum jumping distances given as something you should reach (and, indeed, why would they be there if you shouldn't), then you can reach the same conclusion: that the rules need to be changed, and in the direction we are pushing them.

Jumping distance is based on speed and angle of launch. Thats just basic physics. Speed, in m/s, can be calculated from a characters Q. Its a simple substitution into the right trajectory formula to determine distance traveled given a chosen angle of launch.

Normally the formulas assume an impact launch and favor a 45 degree angle for max distance. Even using this, its not hard to show that a character with a Q less than 9.8 (pull of gravity) cannot achieve a distance equal to his Q in meters.

the math is not easily included, but I have a spreadsheet that I have been developing that shows all this and tries to correct for things like, Strength, characters weight, carried weight, etc. If there is any interest, I'll try to find a way to post it for all to use.

My conclusion is that, much like the encumbrance rules, the existing jumping rules are grossly inaccurate, and require a major overhaul to correct.