Surviving a Vacuum in Shadowrun

Surviving a Vacuum in Shadowrun

Da9iel View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 09:07 AM Post #26
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367	Don't forget he would also need a means of holding in the air, or it would escape through his lungs faster than nanites or a compressed air cylinder could replace it. To do this he would have to increase the pressure around his lungs. In effect, he'd be walking around in a skin tight space suit everywhere he went.

Shadow View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 09:13 AM Post #27
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006	You guys are funny. Survive a vacuum. Hah. There are thirty different things that will kill you in less then a minute. Ten seconds is for a non-space vacuum. IN other words they put a animal in a room and sucked all the air out. In space it is -200 in the shade and +200 in the light. You will freeze on one side, burn on the other. Your eyeballs will explode, and your insides will leak out any possible orifices. Ten seconds. You will die unless you are leaving a pressurized area going 10 meters per second on a bee-line to another pressurized area. Ten seconds. No turning handles or punching in codes. You cannot see, if you open your eyes you will loose them. I cannot stand up and go open the bedroom door in ten seconds and I can actually move. Survive a vacuum. Try this. Close all the doors in your house. Stand in your kitchen and close your eyes. Take a couple of deep breaths and then forcibly exhale all the air in your lungs. Now go find the toilet. You will be dead before you get to the bathroom door.

Da9iel View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 09:18 AM Post #28
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367	You may have not noticed that the last two posters (myself included) were trying to point out some of those difficulties.

Shadow View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 09:21 AM Post #29
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006	I was agreeing with you then :)

Kagetenshi

Sep 28 2004, 09:43 AM

Post #30

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QUOTE (DarkShade @ Sep 28 2004, 03:54 AM)

a HUGE amount of modifications to seal ALL his body cavities at will <installing valves or whatever>

Eek, this is the exact opposite of what you want. When you hit vacuum, you want as little gas inside you as possible, and none of it trapped.

Shadow: why would your insides magically start crawling for the door?

Also, I took your challenge. I did it without difficulty (and I didn't even cheat and use the bathroom adjoining the kitchen). Things got iffy when I decided to spin in place ten times before trying, but I can probably still make it about half to a third of the time.

~J

Da9iel View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 09:48 AM Post #31
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367	If you don't trap the air inside, you can't operate in space for more than 10 sec. The oxygen will off-gas too rapidly. The trapped air is only a problem because of the vacuum. If the orthoskin or whatever is tight enough, it will maintain pressure inside the body (just like a space suit).

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 10:10 AM Post #32
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	In general, you are worried more about dumping heat in space than staying warm. The only way to cool off in a vacuum is by radiation which is highly in-efficient compared to convection. If you are in the sunlight, you be getting whatever heating from the absorbtion of radiation in addition to whatever waste hear your body produces. If you up your activity level, then the amount of waste heat you have to dump also goes up. The radiation of heat is not going to cool you down that fast (unless you tack on some heat sinks to help you lose waste heat). Upping vacuum survial time to minutes is probably doable (and still being mostly human) adding more time that that is likely to make you 'space suit man'. You probably need: modifications to the eyes, ears, and nose to prevent them from being damaged. Modifications to your lungs. Modifications to your heart and major blood vessels. Changes to your skin... Going with something like: cyber eyes, cyber ears, balance augmentor, orthoskin, synthacardium, expanded volume, internal air supply, then adding around 1 BE in changes to your circulatory system... and you'll probably be able to go for a while longer in a vacuum. But any long term stays are probably not in the cards.

Shadow

Sep 28 2004, 10:24 AM

Post #33

Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Shadow: why would your insides magically start crawling for the door?

It's not magic. When there is no pressure exherted on your body, the liquid parts start looking for the door (it was mentioned in the NASA article linked above). You need pressure to survive without it you die a rather painful death.

And like I said, that is just one of the things that will kill you in a hard vacuum.

Cray74

Sep 28 2004, 12:15 PM

Post #34

Running Target

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QUOTE (Shadow)

It's not magic. When there is no pressure exherted on your body, the liquid parts start looking for the door (it was mentioned in the NASA article linked above). You need pressure to survive without it you die a rather painful death.

...

Your eyeballs will explode, and your insides will leak out any possible orifices.

No, they won't. Shadow, you apparently only skimmed the link that Crusher Bob provided. Let me quote the intro again:

QUOTE

A frequently asked question is: how realistic is the scene in 2001: A Space Odyssey where astronaut Bowman makes a space-walk without a helmet? How long could a human survive if exposed to vacuum? Would you explode? Would you survive? How long would you remain conscious?

The quick answers to these questions are: Clarke got it about right in 2001. You would survive about a ninety seconds, you wouldn't explode, you would remain conscious for about ten seconds.

The pressure change involved is no more dramatic than surfacing from a 10m/33ft dive. If you follow standard scuba diving procedures for equalizing pressure - keep exhaling, don't resist any farts - there are no explosions, no lung embolisms, no eyeball popping, no organ ejection. The body has means of venting the pressure that would be responsible for damaging it.

Once the gas in body cavities is out, the pressure exerted by the circulatory system is generally adequate to keep the blood from boiling at body temperature in a vacuum. You'll risk the bends around soft tissue if the pressure drop was sudden, but if it happened over the course of minutes - time enough for a scuba diving safety stop - the problem will be minimal.

The major problem is asphyxiation; you'll lose consciousness in about 15-30 seconds since there will be no air in the lungs. And, yes, you can punch buttons and turn knobs in the mean time.

Cable

Sep 28 2004, 12:36 PM

Post #35

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QUOTE (DarkShade)

just have him use a specialised variant of full body orthoskin, replace his eyes with special modified cyber and do a HUGE amount of modifications to seal ALL his body cavities at will <installing valves or whatever>, replace his ears as well.
then you have to somehow generate heat I suppose resistors could be built in the specialised orthoskin, and a powerpack could be put somewhere.
also you would need air, a built in tank.
radiation is an issue for extended trips or if he returns there often and doesnt want cancer as part of his retirement package.
on the good side he wouldnt care about hereditary malformations from radiation as his genitals would likely have to be removed anyway.

with all this he would need a propulsion system in space <or magnetic boots, but if all he wants is a space walk, why not just use a suit? >

all in all we are talking about a SERIOUS amount of nuyen, and a serious amount of essence as well, and technology that doesnt officially exist in sr <if you use a completely sealed orthoskin for protection you will need for example a system to dispose of sweat and to generate some vitamins etc generated by the skin>
also remember that the orthoskin has to be mirrorlike or at the very least very white or he will burn upon exposure to sunlight in space. this character will look very freaky in any social situation. is all this worth it???

DS

Good justification for just no. Along with lack of O2, heat, pressure, lack of propulsion, and possible radiation, dont forget if the character is in view of the sun he would most likely fry. Those suits keep you warm but also keep you cool and protected. Also, what do you think the damage code is on orbital debri? Not good.

Just No

Cray74

Sep 28 2004, 01:10 PM

Post #36

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QUOTE (DarkShade @ Sep 28 2004, 08:54 AM)

radiation is an issue for extended trips or if he returns there often and doesnt want cancer as part of his retirement package.

Not really. The dosage rates on the International Space Station are quite manageable. Also, SOTA's Genetech introduction encouraged development of new types of genetech by players and GMs. An obvious genetech for a spacer would be the DNA repair mechanisms being found in real life today - they'd greatly enhance radiation tolerance.

QUOTE

then you have to somehow generate heat I suppose resistors could be built in the specialised orthoskin, and a powerpack could be put somewhere.

Or you could just let the spacer's blood system carry heat from the sunlit sides to the cold sides. If completely out of the light, the spacer is still in a vacuum - great insulation. The kilowatt of metabolic heat he's releasing should be plenty to keep him warm.

QUOTE

on the good side he wouldnt care about hereditary malformations from radiation as his genitals would likely have to be removed anyway.

I doubt it. Orthoskin should protect them, too, or (for males) you could implement a flesh pocket sort of system for retracting them into a protected environment.

QUOTE

with all this he would need a propulsion system in space <or magnetic boots, but if all he wants is a space walk, why not just use a suit? >

Suits aren't always available. Being able to survive 10-15 minutes in a vacuum without a suit would be very useful for long-term spacers.

QUOTE

also remember that the orthoskin has to be mirrorlike or at the very least very white or he will burn upon exposure to sunlight in space.

You're forgetting sweat. Sweat, if anything, will be more efficient in space than on the ground. It'll certainly have no trouble evaporating in a vacuum.

The heat loads in orbit are only slightly higher than in a well-lit spot on Earth, about 1400W per square meter vs ~1000 on Earth. You don't have convective cooling, but any fairly reflective skin coloration will help, and sweating will certainly help manage temperatures, too.

For avoiding awkward social situations, use something like dermal sheathing's ruthenium polymers: color changing orthoskin. In normal light levels, it's skin-toned. In high UV, it's reflective.

Alternately, just depend on a thermal garment. The "suitless spacewalker" will probably be wearing some kind of clothing anyway, at least gloves and boots to protect his skin from direct contact with heated or chilled surfaces. A light coverall with the correct coloration will reduce the number of implants required, and can even use existing equipment (the color-changing "rapid transit" clothing in Cannon Companion).

QUOTE

Good justification for just no.

I still don't see the issue. What's the harm in letting a PC be immune to space? Given the lack of vacuum guns in corporate security hands, the PC would be spending an enormous amount of effort on only nearly useless implants.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 04:03 PM Post #37
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	hmm, that scuba carbine from CC could in theory fire in space ;)

Siege View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 04:08 PM Post #38
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916	Hah ha! Little did you know Cray that the janitors would rise to power and strike fear into the hearts of Shadowrunners everywhere! Eat Dirt Devil, shadowrunner scum! -Siege

Cray74

Sep 28 2004, 05:29 PM

Post #39

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QUOTE (hobgoblin)

hmm, that scuba carbine from CC could in theory fire in space ;)

Most guns should fire in space without special ammo. The problem would be firing repeatedly.

1) Cooling will be difficult - the guns are effectively vacuum-insulated. A water cooling system would probably help, as might puffing cool gas (argon, nitrogen) through the breach and barrel between shots.

1a) In Earth orbit, I don't think the ammo would get hot enough just from sunlight to cook off, but its shelf life might be shortened from continuous high temperatures.

2) Lubrication might also be a problem; some oils might evaporate or gum up, or fail from excessive heat. A dry lubricant like graphite, hexagonal boron nitride, or molybdenum disulfide would fix that issue.

3) On the moon, the dust might be annoying, particularly to liquid-lubricant weapons. See the dry lubricant options.

I suspect revolvers would actually do very well with no modification. They don't use the same firing chamber for each shot and are (I think) less sensitive to lubricant troubles than other repeating mechanisms.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 07:16 PM Post #40
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Overheating should not really be a problem for most pistols either, if you're only firing 6 shots of some rather low-power ammunition. MGs might be problematic...

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 07:59 PM Post #41
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	and there is newton, would not the act of fireing a gun push you in the other direction unless you are you against something?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 08:25 PM Post #42
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Yep. ~J

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 08:32 PM Post #43
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	A.k.a. recoil.

RangerJoe View Member Profile	Sep 28 2004, 08:56 PM Post #44
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 22-June 02 From: Parts Without Member No.: 2,897	Any self-respecting space-runner should be sporting a bleeding edge laser weapon simply for style reasons... and the fact that the recoil would be negligible.

Cray74

Sep 28 2004, 09:28 PM

Post #45

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QUOTE (RangerJoe)

Any self-respecting space-runner should be sporting a bleeding edge laser weapon simply for style reasons... and the fact that the recoil would be negligible.

Hmm. How about a Smartlink-integrated rocket pack, so it can deliver equal-and-opposite reactions no matter where a non-laser firearm is aimed? That's got the electronics-heavy thrill for "early adopters" who can't afford lasers.

Plus, how can you play Colonial Marines with a laser? The aesthetics of fighting insect spirits or escaped genetically engineered monsters on the partially-terraformed Martian colonies demands assault rifles and gyro mounted MGs.

Req

Sep 29 2004, 12:07 AM

Post #46

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QUOTE (Cray74)

Hmm. How about a Smartlink-integrated rocket pack, so it can deliver equal-and-opposite reactions no matter where a non-laser firearm is aimed? That's got the electronics-heavy thrill for "early adopters" who can't afford lasers.

Oh god, we're turning him into a Glitter Boy.

If you don't get the reference, then you're a happier human being than I. :)

Cray74 View Member Profile	Sep 29 2004, 12:43 AM Post #47
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860	I have a very extensive Rifts collection, actually. :)

Sandoval Smith View Member Profile	Sep 29 2004, 11:43 AM Post #48
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690	The assumption I was operating under was that this hypothetical had some poor chump getting booted out an airlock with no preparation. I don't remember Target: Wastelands having a damage code for vacuum exposure. If you didn't have an extra source of oxygen suffocation damage would make things easy. However, if you happened to have an internal tank or something I'd go for some sort of constant rate of damage. To just toss a number out there, you'd have to resist 10L a round (since if you have air, I'd say it's perfectly fair to have a couple minutes before you succumb to heat, cold, or general suckage)?

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Sep 29 2004, 11:49 AM Post #49
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	There's some oddities that crop up in your circulatory system (ie, not being able to move blood around) that would need to be addressed.

Cray74

Sep 29 2004, 12:22 PM

Post #50

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QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

There's some oddities that crop up in your circulatory system (ie, not being able to move blood around) that would need to be addressed.

Why would your blood not move, aside from Bends-type blockages?

QUOTE

To just toss a number out there, you'd have to resist 10L a round (since if you have air, I'd say it's perfectly fair to have a couple minutes before you succumb to heat, cold, or general suckage)?

10L a turn sounds good, if T:WL lacks a number.

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