SimpleRunner
Sep 26 2004, 12:31 AM
Where is the information on this. I have a player that wants to be shipped inside a sealed container to fool a chem sniffer and other various analyzers. I am trying to find the refference to how would a PC/NPC survive such a trip with an Oxygen container?
HMHVV Hunter
Sep 26 2004, 01:32 AM
Target: Wastelands has those rules, I believe.
SimpleRunner
Sep 26 2004, 02:04 AM
I thought that was the name of the manual. Just found my copy of it. It fell behind a bookcase. Only thought about looking for it after I remember the name of it.
hyzmarca
Sep 26 2004, 12:50 PM
A container doesn't have to be vacuume sealed to fool chemsniffers, just airtight.
Thistledown
Sep 26 2004, 04:54 PM
Well, you might want an internal air tank cyberware. Gives 75 minutes of oxygen. I belive theres a hibernate spell which could help as well. And if your using the physad handybook, I think theres hibernation in there too.
Speeking of vacumes, a player of mine wants his cyber-sam to be able to survive in space for a few minutes if necesary, without a suit. He's got dermal sheath3, internal air tank (not sure if thats good or bad), replaced organs, thermal mod3 radsuit6, and magnetic boots. Anything else he'll need?
RangerJoe
Sep 26 2004, 06:43 PM
A pile of karma.
Ombre
Sep 26 2004, 06:44 PM
I think you could go for Oxy-rush nanites...
iPad
Sep 26 2004, 07:03 PM
I think people can be exposed to the void for about 10 seconds before they pass out (probably a 12D stun), but the radiation in orbit would probably inflict 10m each round as well. I imagen ware can help, but things like the eyes, synusses(sp?) and weak bits on the body suffer from the capilaries bursting quickly due to the lack of pressure.
hobgoblin
Sep 26 2004, 09:21 PM
and the cold can be very bad from what i understand.
radiation is a slow killer unless we are talking close range atom bomb or similar
your more likely to die from cold or lackof air then anything else i think...
Wounded Ronin
Sep 26 2004, 10:59 PM
The biggest thing about surviving in the vacum of space is the pressure differential. See, everyone on earth has a certain amount of pressure pushing out of them which matches the extent to which gravity pushes in on us. If you put someone in deep space without a suit, I think they'd explode from internal pressure.
It's the same reason why when SCUBA diving you have to be careful about how fast you dive or come up.
hobgoblin
Sep 26 2004, 11:49 PM
thier blood may boil but i dont think they will explode from lack of pressure. you have to go from i think about 10-20 atmospheres of pressure and rapidly to the surfaces (1 atmosphere) to get any kind of outwards signs that you came up from great depths (deep sea fish get bulgy eyes and so on). going from 1 to 0 will not make you explosively decompress, our body is to flexible for that.
scuba diving needs to go up slowly as to avoid the "gasses" that is disolved in the blood form going from liquid to gass to fast and create bubbles in the blood. these are extremly dangerous if they hit the brain or heart. only wya to counteract the effect is to get the person back under pressure in a pressure chamber or similar.
gasses become liquid when either under high pressure or low temprature.
Bossemanden
Sep 27 2004, 12:23 AM
If I understand correctly, being exposed to hard vacuum in space for more than a few seconds has a bad habit of pushing your lungs out through your nose and mouth. Possibly followed by the rest of your intestines.
You wont "explode" as such, but will die from lack of oxygen and massive bleeding from your lung tissue.
Kagetenshi
Sep 27 2004, 12:28 AM
That may be true, but the biggest problem would be if you tried to hold your breath. Suddenly all of that air is trying to get out, and anything holding it back is going to be hurting. Holding your breath is not a good way to survive a suitless spacewalk.
I'm not sure what would push your lungs out, though.
~J
hyzmarca
Sep 27 2004, 01:07 AM
Well, since no Astronaut has ever volunteered to go on a suitless spacewalk it is impossible to know for sure exactly how one would die in that situation. However, I'm sure we can all agree that it would be terribly unpleasent.
Sandoval Smith
Sep 27 2004, 01:34 AM
Actually, vacuum conditions are pretty survivable. It's suffocation that will do you in (although if you don't exhale and empty your lungs before going out then you probably will rupture them). If you have an oxygen supply handy then you can survive until you freeze to death.
It certainly won't leave you pretty. Surface capillaries will probably rupture, and internal capillary ruptures are going to start causing you to leak from eyes, ears and mouth, although not enough for you to bleed to death before the cold gets you. I'm really not sure about radiation. I'd simply say that although nasty, unless they are spending hours out there without a suit, all they take away is some nasty sunburn (L wound) and a signifigantly increased chance of cancer and birth defect in any children they have (how often do those two events come up in game?).
Kagetenshi
Sep 27 2004, 01:44 AM
Unfortunately, Target: Wastelands gives no guide for radiation in space.
Incidentally, is that a quote from a review for The Mangler?
~J
John Campbell
Sep 27 2004, 02:22 AM
You may not even necessarily freeze to death. Space isn't really "cold" in the conventional sense... there's so little actual stuff there that talking about its temperature isn't terribly useful. Because there's nothing there, you can't lose heat through conduction or convection, so it becomes a question of whether you're radiating more heat than is being radiated at you (by the sun, mostly). In, say, the shadow of a planet, you'll freeze, but if you're out in sunlight, getting broiled is much more likely. I'm not sure how long either of those processes would take, but I'd be willing to bet that anoxia would get you first.
Sandoval Smith
Sep 27 2004, 05:22 AM
Kagetenshi: Yes, it is. I'm a big fan of Cold Fusion Video Reviews, and I always thought that was one of the funniest lines on the site. Also potentially applicable to SR. If you can follow Totem: Toaster, a cult centered around a possessed laundry press isn't too much weirder.
John: I forgot about that. I was stuck in a 'space cold' mindset. I'll rephrase to state that IMO, if you have an oxygen supply with you, you can survive unprotected in space for a decent amount of time. It's the enviromental factors that you have to worry about: you'll either fry or freeze before the cumulative effects of the vacuum can do you in.
Crusher Bob
Sep 27 2004, 09:32 AM
Surviving in VaccumBefore you stand the doors of the Internet. Google friend, and enter.
As for living in a crate for a while:
How big a crate and for how long?
If you are going to be in there for any length of time, you'll need a CO2 scrubber since high partial pressures of CO2 are toxic.
If you are going to spend alot of time in there you'll want something to dehumidify the air as well, since exhaled mositure would make the interior unpleasantly damp.
Then you have the more mundane life support issues like waste processing, water, and food (if you are there for a really long time).
If you are expecting to be there for several days, best bring along something to do (datajack and game console, or whatever) as sensory deprivation effects will start to get to you.
SimpleRunner
Sep 27 2004, 01:35 PM
Crusher Bob,
Wow now thats a nice article. I did do a search from Google and it came up with thousands of entries. Based on a little of what I read I had to ask the question here as I knew I saw it referenced to in a SR product. My copy was slightly misplaced and after the name was mentioned I remember I had a copy somewhere.
All the info I have helped me deal with what I needed here and due to the complexities the Runners went a different route anyhow.
Cray74
Sep 27 2004, 09:25 PM
QUOTE (iPad) |
I think people can be exposed to the void for about 10 seconds before they pass out (probably a 12D stun), but the radiation in orbit would probably inflict 10m each round as well. I imagen ware can help, but things like the eyes, synusses(sp?) and weak bits on the body suffer from the capilaries bursting quickly due to the lack of pressure. |
Radiation is a non-issue in orbit, except in the Van Allen belts. You pick up some REMs in orbit, but it's at a fairly low rate.
And Crusher Bob: That's exactly the article I would've gone for to cure any notions of vacuum exposure pulling your lungs out your mouth.
People have been exposed to vacuum without a spacesuit (see: Soyuz 11), and the experience leaves an "open casket corpse."
Cable
Sep 27 2004, 09:40 PM
QUOTE (Thistledown) |
Speeking of vacumes, a player of mine wants his cyber-sam to be able to survive in space for a few minutes if necesary, without a suit. He's got dermal sheath3, internal air tank (not sure if thats good or bad), replaced organs, thermal mod3 radsuit6, and magnetic boots. Anything else he'll need? |
Just No
Cray74
Sep 27 2004, 10:22 PM
Why not? What's so horrible or munchkin about surviving in a vacuum?
It's almost a stock of cyberpunk. Cyberpunk 2020 has vacuum adaptation cyberware, as does GURPS Transhuman Space (which takes the bioware route).
Thistledown, you might add nictating membranes or eye covers.
hobgoblin
Sep 27 2004, 10:47 PM
the main problem (that i gatherd from the article linked by crusher bob) is the sirculation of oxygen around the body (next after air pressure in the lungs). so with the mods there i would allow him to survive for a short while atleast. the problem is longer time survival as the body can carry only so mutch waste (i hope he visited the bathroom before going eva).
DarkShade
Sep 28 2004, 08:54 AM
just have him use a specialised variant of full body orthoskin, replace his eyes with special modified cyber and do a HUGE amount of modifications to seal ALL his body cavities at will <installing valves or whatever>, replace his ears as well.
then you have to somehow generate heat I suppose resistors could be built in the specialised orthoskin, and a powerpack could be put somewhere.
also you would need air, a built in tank.
radiation is an issue for extended trips or if he returns there often and doesnt want cancer as part of his retirement package.
on the good side he wouldnt care about hereditary malformations from radiation as his genitals would likely have to be removed anyway.
with all this he would need a propulsion system in space <or magnetic boots, but if all he wants is a space walk, why not just use a suit? >
all in all we are talking about a SERIOUS amount of nuyen, and a serious amount of essence as well, and technology that doesnt officially exist in sr <if you use a completely sealed orthoskin for protection you will need for example a system to dispose of sweat and to generate some vitamins etc generated by the skin>
also remember that the orthoskin has to be mirrorlike or at the very least very white or he will burn upon exposure to sunlight in space. this character will look very freaky in any social situation. is all this worth it???
DS
Da9iel
Sep 28 2004, 09:07 AM
Don't forget he would also need a means of holding in the air, or it would escape through his lungs faster than nanites or a compressed air cylinder could replace it. To do this he would have to increase the pressure around his lungs. In effect, he'd be walking around in a skin tight space suit everywhere he went.
Shadow
Sep 28 2004, 09:13 AM
You guys are funny. Survive a vacuum. Hah.
There are thirty different things that will kill you in less then a minute. Ten seconds is for a non-space vacuum. IN other words they put a animal in a room and sucked all the air out.
In space it is -200 in the shade and +200 in the light. You will freeze on one side, burn on the other. Your eyeballs will explode, and your insides will leak out any possible orifices.
Ten seconds.
You will die unless you are leaving a pressurized area going 10 meters per second on a bee-line to another pressurized area.
Ten seconds.
No turning handles or punching in codes. You cannot see, if you open your eyes you will loose them.
I cannot stand up and go open the bedroom door in ten seconds and I can actually move.
Survive a vacuum. Try this. Close all the doors in your house. Stand in your kitchen and close your eyes. Take a couple of deep breaths and then forcibly exhale all the air in your lungs. Now go find the toilet. You will be dead before you get to the bathroom door.
Da9iel
Sep 28 2004, 09:18 AM
You may have not noticed that the last two posters (myself included) were trying to point out some of those difficulties.
Shadow
Sep 28 2004, 09:21 AM
I was agreeing with you then
Kagetenshi
Sep 28 2004, 09:43 AM
QUOTE (DarkShade @ Sep 28 2004, 03:54 AM) |
a HUGE amount of modifications to seal ALL his body cavities at will <installing valves or whatever> |
Eek, this is the exact opposite of what you want. When you hit vacuum, you want as little gas inside you as possible, and none of it trapped.
Shadow: why would your insides magically start crawling for the door?
Also, I took your challenge. I did it without difficulty (and I didn't even cheat and use the bathroom adjoining the kitchen). Things got iffy when I decided to spin in place ten times before trying, but I can probably still make it about half to a third of the time.
~J
Da9iel
Sep 28 2004, 09:48 AM
If you don't trap the air inside, you can't operate in space for more than 10 sec. The oxygen will off-gas too rapidly. The trapped air is only a problem because of the vacuum. If the orthoskin or whatever is tight enough, it will maintain pressure inside the body (just like a space suit).
Crusher Bob
Sep 28 2004, 10:10 AM
In general, you are worried more about dumping heat in space than staying warm. The only way to cool off in a vacuum is by radiation which is highly in-efficient compared to convection. If you are in the sunlight, you be getting whatever heating from the absorbtion of radiation in addition to whatever waste hear your body produces. If you up your activity level, then the amount of waste heat you have to dump also goes up. The radiation of heat is not going to cool you down that fast (unless you tack on some heat sinks to help you lose waste heat).
Upping vacuum survial time to minutes is probably doable (and still being mostly human) adding more time that that is likely to make you 'space suit man'.
You probably need: modifications to the eyes, ears, and nose to prevent them from being damaged. Modifications to your lungs. Modifications to your heart and major blood vessels. Changes to your skin...
Going with something like: cyber eyes, cyber ears, balance augmentor, orthoskin, synthacardium, expanded volume, internal air supply, then adding around 1 BE in changes to your circulatory system... and you'll probably be able to go for a while longer in a vacuum. But any long term stays are probably not in the cards.
Shadow
Sep 28 2004, 10:24 AM
QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
Shadow: why would your insides magically start crawling for the door? |
It's not magic. When there is no pressure exherted on your body, the liquid parts start looking for the door (it was mentioned in the NASA article linked above). You need pressure to survive without it you die a rather painful death.
And like I said, that is just one of the things that will kill you in a hard vacuum.
Cray74
Sep 28 2004, 12:15 PM
QUOTE (Shadow) |
It's not magic. When there is no pressure exherted on your body, the liquid parts start looking for the door (it was mentioned in the NASA article linked above). You need pressure to survive without it you die a rather painful death.
...
Your eyeballs will explode, and your insides will leak out any possible orifices. |
No, they won't. Shadow, you apparently only skimmed the link that Crusher Bob provided. Let me quote the intro again:
QUOTE |
A frequently asked question is: how realistic is the scene in 2001: A Space Odyssey where astronaut Bowman makes a space-walk without a helmet? How long could a human survive if exposed to vacuum? Would you explode? Would you survive? How long would you remain conscious?
The quick answers to these questions are: Clarke got it about right in 2001. You would survive about a ninety seconds, you wouldn't explode, you would remain conscious for about ten seconds. |
The pressure change involved is no more dramatic than surfacing from a 10m/33ft dive. If you follow standard scuba diving procedures for equalizing pressure - keep exhaling, don't resist any farts - there are no explosions, no lung embolisms, no eyeball popping, no organ ejection. The body has means of venting the pressure that would be responsible for damaging it.
Once the gas in body cavities is out, the pressure exerted by the circulatory system is generally adequate to keep the blood from boiling at body temperature in a vacuum. You'll risk the bends around soft tissue if the pressure drop was sudden, but if it happened over the course of minutes - time enough for a scuba diving safety stop - the problem will be minimal.
The major problem is asphyxiation; you'll lose consciousness in about 15-30 seconds since there will be no air in the lungs. And, yes, you can punch buttons and turn knobs in the mean time.
Cable
Sep 28 2004, 12:36 PM
QUOTE (DarkShade) |
just have him use a specialised variant of full body orthoskin, replace his eyes with special modified cyber and do a HUGE amount of modifications to seal ALL his body cavities at will <installing valves or whatever>, replace his ears as well. then you have to somehow generate heat I suppose resistors could be built in the specialised orthoskin, and a powerpack could be put somewhere. also you would need air, a built in tank. radiation is an issue for extended trips or if he returns there often and doesnt want cancer as part of his retirement package. on the good side he wouldnt care about hereditary malformations from radiation as his genitals would likely have to be removed anyway.
with all this he would need a propulsion system in space <or magnetic boots, but if all he wants is a space walk, why not just use a suit? >
all in all we are talking about a SERIOUS amount of nuyen, and a serious amount of essence as well, and technology that doesnt officially exist in sr <if you use a completely sealed orthoskin for protection you will need for example a system to dispose of sweat and to generate some vitamins etc generated by the skin> also remember that the orthoskin has to be mirrorlike or at the very least very white or he will burn upon exposure to sunlight in space. this character will look very freaky in any social situation. is all this worth it???
DS |
Good justification for just no. Along with lack of O2, heat, pressure, lack of propulsion, and possible radiation, dont forget if the character is in view of the sun he would most likely fry. Those suits keep you warm but also keep you cool and protected. Also, what do you think the damage code is on orbital debri? Not good.
Just No
Cray74
Sep 28 2004, 01:10 PM
QUOTE (DarkShade @ Sep 28 2004, 08:54 AM) |
radiation is an issue for extended trips or if he returns there often and doesnt want cancer as part of his retirement package. |
Not really. The dosage rates on the International Space Station are quite manageable. Also, SOTA's Genetech introduction encouraged development of new types of genetech by players and GMs. An obvious genetech for a spacer would be the DNA repair mechanisms being found in real life today - they'd greatly enhance radiation tolerance.
QUOTE |
then you have to somehow generate heat I suppose resistors could be built in the specialised orthoskin, and a powerpack could be put somewhere. |
Or you could just let the spacer's blood system carry heat from the sunlit sides to the cold sides. If completely out of the light, the spacer is still in a vacuum - great insulation. The kilowatt of metabolic heat he's releasing should be plenty to keep him warm.
QUOTE |
on the good side he wouldnt care about hereditary malformations from radiation as his genitals would likely have to be removed anyway. |
I doubt it. Orthoskin should protect them, too, or (for males) you could implement a flesh pocket sort of system for retracting them into a protected environment.
QUOTE |
with all this he would need a propulsion system in space <or magnetic boots, but if all he wants is a space walk, why not just use a suit? > |
Suits aren't always available. Being able to survive 10-15 minutes in a vacuum without a suit would be very useful for long-term spacers.
QUOTE |
also remember that the orthoskin has to be mirrorlike or at the very least very white or he will burn upon exposure to sunlight in space. |
You're forgetting sweat. Sweat, if anything, will be more efficient in space than on the ground. It'll certainly have no trouble evaporating in a vacuum.
The heat loads in orbit are only slightly higher than in a well-lit spot on Earth, about 1400W per square meter vs ~1000 on Earth. You don't have convective cooling, but any fairly reflective skin coloration will help, and sweating will certainly help manage temperatures, too.
For avoiding awkward social situations, use something like dermal sheathing's ruthenium polymers: color changing orthoskin. In normal light levels, it's skin-toned. In high UV, it's reflective.
Alternately, just depend on a thermal garment. The "suitless spacewalker" will probably be wearing some kind of clothing anyway, at least gloves and boots to protect his skin from direct contact with heated or chilled surfaces. A light coverall with the correct coloration will reduce the number of implants required, and can even use existing equipment (the color-changing "rapid transit" clothing in Cannon Companion).
QUOTE |
Good justification for just no. |
I still don't see the issue. What's the harm in letting a PC be immune to space? Given the lack of vacuum guns in corporate security hands, the PC would be spending an enormous amount of effort on only nearly useless implants.
hobgoblin
Sep 28 2004, 04:03 PM
hmm, that scuba carbine from CC could in theory fire in space
Siege
Sep 28 2004, 04:08 PM
Hah ha! Little did you know Cray that the janitors would rise to power and strike fear into the hearts of Shadowrunners everywhere!
Eat Dirt Devil, shadowrunner scum!
-Siege
Cray74
Sep 28 2004, 05:29 PM
QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
hmm, that scuba carbine from CC could in theory fire in space |
Most guns should fire in space without special ammo. The problem would be firing repeatedly.
1) Cooling will be difficult - the guns are effectively vacuum-insulated. A water cooling system would probably help, as might puffing cool gas (argon, nitrogen) through the breach and barrel between shots.
1a) In Earth orbit, I don't think the ammo would get hot enough just from sunlight to cook off, but its shelf life might be shortened from continuous high temperatures.
2) Lubrication might also be a problem; some oils might evaporate or gum up, or fail from excessive heat. A dry lubricant like graphite, hexagonal boron nitride, or molybdenum disulfide would fix that issue.
3) On the moon, the dust might be annoying, particularly to liquid-lubricant weapons. See the dry lubricant options.
I suspect revolvers would actually do very well with no modification. They don't use the same firing chamber for each shot and are (I think) less sensitive to lubricant troubles than other repeating mechanisms.
Austere Emancipator
Sep 28 2004, 07:16 PM
Overheating should not really be a problem for most pistols either, if you're only firing 6 shots of some rather low-power ammunition. MGs might be problematic...
hobgoblin
Sep 28 2004, 07:59 PM
and there is newton, would not the act of fireing a gun push you in the other direction unless you are you against something?
Kagetenshi
Sep 28 2004, 08:25 PM
Yep.
~J
Austere Emancipator
Sep 28 2004, 08:32 PM
A.k.a. recoil.
RangerJoe
Sep 28 2004, 08:56 PM
Any self-respecting space-runner should be sporting a bleeding edge laser weapon simply for style reasons... and the fact that the recoil would be negligible.
Cray74
Sep 28 2004, 09:28 PM
QUOTE (RangerJoe) |
Any self-respecting space-runner should be sporting a bleeding edge laser weapon simply for style reasons... and the fact that the recoil would be negligible. |
Hmm. How about a Smartlink-integrated rocket pack, so it can deliver equal-and-opposite reactions no matter where a non-laser firearm is aimed? That's got the electronics-heavy thrill for "early adopters" who can't afford lasers.
Plus, how can you play Colonial Marines with a laser? The aesthetics of fighting insect spirits or escaped genetically engineered monsters on the partially-terraformed Martian colonies demands assault rifles and gyro mounted MGs.
Req
Sep 29 2004, 12:07 AM
QUOTE (Cray74) |
Hmm. How about a Smartlink-integrated rocket pack, so it can deliver equal-and-opposite reactions no matter where a non-laser firearm is aimed? That's got the electronics-heavy thrill for "early adopters" who can't afford lasers. |
Oh god, we're turning him into a Glitter Boy.
If you don't get the reference, then you're a happier human being than I.
Cray74
Sep 29 2004, 12:43 AM
I have a very extensive Rifts collection, actually.
Sandoval Smith
Sep 29 2004, 11:43 AM
The assumption I was operating under was that this hypothetical had some poor chump getting booted out an airlock with no preparation. I don't remember Target: Wastelands having a damage code for vacuum exposure. If you didn't have an extra source of oxygen suffocation damage would make things easy. However, if you happened to have an internal tank or something I'd go for some sort of constant rate of damage. To just toss a number out there, you'd have to resist 10L a round (since if you have air, I'd say it's perfectly fair to have a couple minutes before you succumb to heat, cold, or general suckage)?
Crusher Bob
Sep 29 2004, 11:49 AM
There's some oddities that crop up in your circulatory system (ie, not being able to move blood around) that would need to be addressed.
Cray74
Sep 29 2004, 12:22 PM
QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
There's some oddities that crop up in your circulatory system (ie, not being able to move blood around) that would need to be addressed. |
Why would your blood not move, aside from Bends-type blockages?
QUOTE |
To just toss a number out there, you'd have to resist 10L a round (since if you have air, I'd say it's perfectly fair to have a couple minutes before you succumb to heat, cold, or general suckage)? |
10L a turn sounds good, if T:WL lacks a number.