Full Version: Surviving a Vacuum in Shadowrun
Get yourself some Regeneration.
I like the idea of the 10L per turn, probably go with that. And the eye stuff. Rest sounds good so far.
And we were already thinking about the water carbine. It has its own air supply if I recall, which for some reason is needed for the gun to work? (Not sure why it would be, hmmm.)
And we were already thinking about the water carbine. It has its own air supply if I recall, which for some reason is needed for the gun to work? (Not sure why it would be, hmmm.)
| QUOTE (Thistledown) |
| I like the idea of the 10L per turn, probably go with that. And the eye stuff. Rest sounds good so far. |
If you mean "eyes pop out of the head," no, they won't. It might get a bit hard to see, but eyes aren't particularly bothered by pressure changes (compared to lungs and ears).
10L physical per turn will represent the general asphyxiation and "bends" damage.
6M to 10M stun per turn would represent the risk of rapidly passing out due to loss of oxygen in the lungs. The typical person should pass out in about 10 seconds.
| QUOTE |
| And we were already thinking about the water carbine. It has its own air supply if I recall, which for some reason is needed for the gun to work? (Not sure why it would be, hmmm.) |
For simplicity, I'd allow revolvers, lasers, and SS/SA weapons to work normally. BF and FA weapons might be prone to failure...like, if more 1's than successes are rolled, or if no successes are rolled.
The 10L a round is supposed to account for all the various things that start going wrong with you body if you're able to still suck air, but are playing in the void without your special pants. If you really want to get into the gory details, well go right ahead.
For current SR tech, I'd really recommend a revolver for use in space, since it's operation is completly mechanical, and does not need gas to cycle the bullets.
Giving a regenerating character an oxygen mask, and then locking them outside the the airlock. That's just mean.
Finally, whatever you do, don't lick the hull of the spaceship.
For current SR tech, I'd really recommend a revolver for use in space, since it's operation is completly mechanical, and does not need gas to cycle the bullets.
Giving a regenerating character an oxygen mask, and then locking them outside the the airlock. That's just mean.
Finally, whatever you do, don't lick the hull of the spaceship.
| QUOTE (Sandoval Smith) |
| For current SR tech, I'd really recommend a revolver for use in space, since it's operation is completly mechanical, and does not need gas to cycle the bullets. |
Most pistols don't either, they are recoil-operated -- short recoil or (delayed) blowback. I doubt Desert Eagle-style gas operation has become any more common by the 2060s. No idea how that would affect reliability of the action in space, either.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Most pistols don't either, they are recoil-operated -- short recoil or (delayed) blowback. I doubt Desert Eagle-style gas operation has become any more common by the 2060s. No idea how that would affect reliability of the action in space, either. |
So this is showing my lack of nitty-gritty detailed firearm operation knowledge, but would there be any strange effects in recoil-operated firearms in a zero-g environment where the firer moves in reaction to the shot? I ask because I've taken friends who don't know too much to the range, and noticed that a lot of pistols seem to jam when fired in the hands of someone who doesn't grip them right. My girlfriend was jamming on every shot from a pretty nice Kimber .45, while I went through mag after mag without a problem; after I showed her a proper, firm, and well-seated grip on the weapon, her jam problems were gone.
I assume (probably wrongly) that the jamming was due to the fact that she was holding the gun loosely, allowing the whole frame to move with the recoil, rather than just the slide. If I'm wrong (and this is a tangent of course), anyone know what caused this? If I'm right, would one's inability to really brace onesself lead to less reliable feed even from a recoil-operated weapon?
Firing a gunshot in space would cause a person to acelerate in the direction of the recoil. The exact acceleration would be equal to the force of the recoil divided by the person's mass. In any event, this would be bad.
A single shot would send the shooter tumbling backward. However, it robably wouldn't effect the operation of the gun.
A single shot would send the shooter tumbling backward. However, it robably wouldn't effect the operation of the gun.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Firing a gunshot in space would cause a person to acelerate in the direction of the recoil. The exact acceleration would be equal to the force of the recoil divided by the person's mass. In any event, this would be bad. |
Figure a PC (~80kg) in a spacesuit (~80kg) fires a...
... .44M revolver, launching a 240-grain (15.55 gram) bullet at 1200 feet per second (366m/s). The 160kg of (PC+Suit) would recoil at 0.0354m/s (0.08mph). Grab a ruler and run your finger down 30cm/12 inches in ~8 seconds. That's .0354m/s. It won't be much of a tumble.
... 5.56mm assault rifle, launching a 62-grain (4 gram) bullet at 3000fps (914m/s). The 160kg of (PC+suit) would recoil at 0.023m/s, slower than the massive .44M slug propelled the novice space marine.
... 5.56mm assault rifle, emptying a 30-round clip of the aforementioned 62-grain bullets. The 160kg of (PC+suit) would recoil at 0.69m/s (1.5 miles per hour, half a typical walking pace). It would be a slow motion but annoying tumble.
With a little preparation (IDing the PC's center of mass in a space suit), the tumble can be minimized. Alternately, hold onto something.
| QUOTE (Cray74 @ Sep 29 2004, 08:22 PM) |
| Why would your blood not move, aside from Bends-type blockages? |
From the article I linked:
| QUOTE |
| Heart rate may rise initially, but will fall rapidly thereafter. Arterial blood pressure will also fall over a period of 30 to 60 seconds, while venous pressure rises due to distention of the venous system by gas and vapor. Venous pressure will meet or exceed arterial pressure within one minute. There will be virtually no effective circulation of blood. |
The pressure differentials make it very hard to properly circulate blood, especially since your lungs are <empty> and your blood needs to pass through the alveoli. From what I can tell, this causes the pressure in your arteries to fall off while pressure in your veins rises...
As for the damage done by the vacuum, probably 10M stun (so you'll be KO in around 12 seconds) and then 10L physical every three turns (Deadly physical in 90 seconds and actual death through overflow at around 36 seconds later for someone with body 4.) Although the article says that 'rapid recovers' is likely if recompression occurs within 60-90 seconds, so the physical damage moy not be modeled very well.
Cray74: A significant part of the recoil comes from the propellant gases escaping at the muzzle. Exactly how large a part this is, I don't know, but I'm guessing it varies from 5% to 33% or more of the total recoil momentum, obviously more with cartridges with higher propellant/bullet weight ratios, like rifles, and definitely ARs. The M855 5.56x45mm FMJ cartridge clocks a 62gr bullet at 3025fps with 26.1gr of propellant, the M882 9x19mm FMJ cartridge launches a 112gr bullet at 1263fps with 6gr of propellant. So the actual recoil acceleration for the AR might be up to 40% greater without any means for compensating for the recoil (the gas operation helps a bit, of course).
You'd probably want a massive muzzle brake on any gas-operated gun (might screw with the functioning of a recoil operated weapon), as sound and concealability are not major issues in space, nor are the gases being directed back at your if you've got a suit. Without a suit, though, the hot gases coming at your face at 3000fps might be uncomfortable...
You'd probably want a massive muzzle brake on any gas-operated gun (might screw with the functioning of a recoil operated weapon), as sound and concealability are not major issues in space, nor are the gases being directed back at your if you've got a suit. Without a suit, though, the hot gases coming at your face at 3000fps might be uncomfortable...
The recoil's going to be exactly the same as it is on Earth... it's just harder to brace yourself against it when you don't have gravity nailing you to an oversized rock. If you're not hanging onto something, it will push you around and tumble you over, but the speeds shouldn't be too extreme... a Desert Eagle that generates 1800 ft-lbs of muzzle energy will push a 180-pound firer back at about a meter per second, or maybe 2 mph, a slow walking speed.
I don't think it'd have a significant effect on jamming. If you're holding the gun loosely, the recoil's kicking around a kilogram or two of gun. If you're gripping the gun firmly, you've turned yourself and the gun into a single system, and the recoil's having to push around another 80 kilos of human. Even if you're completely unbraced and falling free, you've increased the mass the recoil's affecting by a factor of fifty or so, and reduced the movement of the gun, and its effects on the feed mechanism, accordingly.
I don't think it'd have a significant effect on jamming. If you're holding the gun loosely, the recoil's kicking around a kilogram or two of gun. If you're gripping the gun firmly, you've turned yourself and the gun into a single system, and the recoil's having to push around another 80 kilos of human. Even if you're completely unbraced and falling free, you've increased the mass the recoil's affecting by a factor of fifty or so, and reduced the movement of the gun, and its effects on the feed mechanism, accordingly.
DE with a 10" barrel firing a 325gr (21.06 gram) bullet at 1590fps (484.6 m/s) = 10.21kgm/s momentum, near the maximum possible out of standard DE model with factory loaded ammunition. I'll be add 10% for the propellant, which might be a bit high, for 11.23kgm/s. That will push a 180lbs (81.65kg) human back at 0.1736m/s. Not even near a walking speed, but will still clear the aforementioned 30cm ruler in ~1.7 seconds, bound to be annoying in space. Even for the 160kg PC+space suit combo, that's still 0.0702m/s.
Now take a bolt-action .50BMG rifle without a muzzle brake and... fuck the numbers, it's a bad idea. [~51.3kgm/s with common loadings using +50% for the propellant, 233gr propellant with a 671gr projectile at 2910fps.]
Now take a bolt-action .50BMG rifle without a muzzle brake and... fuck the numbers, it's a bad idea. [~51.3kgm/s with common loadings using +50% for the propellant, 233gr propellant with a 671gr projectile at 2910fps.]
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| Heart rate may rise initially, but will fall rapidly thereafter. Arterial blood pressure will also fall over a period of 30 to 60 seconds, while venous pressure rises due to distention of the venous system by gas and vapor. Venous pressure will meet or exceed arterial pressure within one minute. There will be virtually no effective circulation of blood. |
Ah. Clearly you want to minimize blood gases with a careful decompression, then.
And look into orthoskin for its elasticity, to minimize the boiling/vaporization of blood.
That should buy you some more seconds to enjoy your asphyxiation.
For space operations, how about a gas powered gun? Along with the ammo, you also load up a compressed gas cylinder (NO2 perhaps). Instead of a bullet, it'd fire loosly packed needles. Very little mass that needs to be moved, so relativly small gas pressure to fire, so very little recoil to worry about (and you could probably create a counter vent so that with a little extra gas expenditure, you cancel out the recoil). No heat to worry about either. It wouldn't do much damage to flesh, but would shred or otherwise put multiple punctures into the target's enviromental suit, and well, that's never fun.
| QUOTE (Cray74) |
| If you mean "eyes pop out of the head," no, they won't. It might get a bit hard to see, but eyes aren't particularly bothered by pressure changes (compared to lungs and ears). |
Actually, I meant the nictating membranes or protective covers that somebody mentioned.
And like I said, he's got 75 minutes of air, so the stun should be all right for a while.
| QUOTE (Thistledown) |
| Actually, I meant the nictating membranes or protective covers that somebody mentioned. |
Oh, my bad.
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