Melee weapons against vehicles or drones? Options

[Tarantula]

Just one more thing I just thought of.... just HOW is the adept catching this drone in order to be hitting it with his sword? The drones speed (or at least a dobermans) is 70 meters a combat turn. I'm pretty sure the steel lynxes is about there too. even only going 20, its doubtful an adept capable of breaching the armor could keep up, and most drones I know of don't ram, as that forces them to resists damage, its much better to just hang around and shoot them. If the rigger was smart, he'd have the armored drone pilot ordered to avoid that guy, and then jump into the roto-drone with an enfield on it, and blast the adept while he tries to catch the armored non-flying one... Course, thats just what i'd do.

[Kagetenshi]

The rigger would be resisting damage with a Power of 2 and plenty of Control Pool. Ramming is an extremely valid option.

~J

[mfb]

don't see anything, Tarantula. if you find anything, cool, but i haven't so far.

i'm not sure your logic about melee attacks bears out. just because your attack is going to bounce off of your target doesn't mean you don't get to roll the attack. at the very least, you could make a Knockdown attack against a smaller drone. actually, and hilariously, it wouldn't be out of the question or a reasonably strong man to knock over a van--Str 6, +4 for using the knockdown option, /2 for going up against a vehicle = TN 5 for the van to remain upright.

edit: i suppose, to try and maintain at least a patina of reality, you could apply the 1/2 power modifier to the knockdown bonus. that would make it [6 + (4/2)]/2 = TN 4.

[Tarantula]

[mfb]

dude, that's simply not what the rules say. the attack does hit, but if the power isn't high enough, it doesn't do damage. with melee attacks, you stage the damage up--including power boosts--before the defender stages the damage down with damage resist. therefore, if your attack is badass enough to raise the power, it does have a legitimate chance of dealing damage to a high-armor vehicle.

[Tarantula]

[mmu1]

[mfb]

guns work differently, Tarantula. you can't stage up the power of a firearm attack by rolling really well.

[Kagetenshi]

[Tarantula]

[Kremlin KOA]

you really amuse me, only blaze has come close to the real answer...

in Canon rules that adept's katana is 13S one handed and 14S two handed, and 14/2 = 7

Don't use those extra successes to up the power, use them to up the damage code... bye bye drone, if the adept maxes combat pool (assuming 6 skill and at least 6 pool) and uses his reach to his advantage he will score at least 8 successes on average that will give a base damage of 7D+2 after reducing for the vehicle effects

after armor the drone needs 6 successes on TN2 to live, if the rigger is not in it then it is dead and if he is then he can add his pool to make it live, 12 success to totally stage down damage would need 14 dice on average 2 body +12 pool there goes the rigger's control pool... if he has that much, (unlikely more likely he only had 10 in which case drone on light wound)

it's next attack can be dodged by the adept using the rest of his combat pool to dodge (he should have at least 3 dice left, and his armor and body should let him live.
he then cuts again and the drone is toast (6 dice, TN3 4 successes 7D even if staged down will only go to 7S at that point it is game over for the drone who can't hit worth a dime any more.

the ram

If the acceleration rating of the van is greater than the distance between the van and the adept then ignore steps one and two

rigger then rolls his car skill against his van's handling and multiplies successes by acceleration (van seems stationary at this point correct me if I am wrong here) if the total is > 2x the distance between him and the adept then on his nexty action he may ram the adept.

during this part the adept will no doubt get his next action, and probably a perception test to notice the big a$$ van coming for him, along wityh an theletics test to increase running speed enough to hide behind something real solid (concrete dataterminal pillar, corner of building, McHughs) if that doesn't work proceed to step 3

Step 3: the ramming test car skill vs handling rating, one success needed. if one success achived then impact, note successes anyway.

damage to adept, (van speed/10) for power damage table is in BBB pg147 increase damage level by 1 stage them apply impact armor.

damage to vehicle (van speed/10)-(vehicle body* success from stage 3) damage level per table on BBB pg 147 and stage down 1 level automatically.

if preferred one can use the table for damage levels from R3 Pg81 then the damage level for the adept would be D and for the van L.

sorry people but your rules fu is inferior (you being an exception to that is noted blaze)

[Tarantula]

Krem, like I said, they all are assuming the adept can even catch the drone, which is the biggest difficulty in the first place.

[blakkie]

[mfb]

unless Tarantula finds something i'm unaware of, the only power modifier which doesn't help defeat hardened armor is burst- and auto-fire. all other modifiers are kosher.

[Adarael]

Has everyone forgotten that when dealing with Dikote, armor only counts halfway? It doesn't specify 'non-hardened armor' in the description of Dikote that I can recall... so.... what's the issue?

Troll busts with 12 or 13 S damage on a drone with 6 armor. Only 3 of the armor points count. 6 (the reduced power) is greater than 3 (the halved armor of the drone).

Problem solved.

[mfb]

no. only barriers are halved against dikote. armor is not affected.

[Adarael]

You sure? If that was the case, why does the description of dikote say that dikoting gives an edged weapon 'anti-armor capability'...? Or was that rule only for 2nd edition?

(Also, on some level, any object which stands between two things can be considered to have a barrier rating....)

[Paco]

If Dikote makes Melee weapons twice as effective against barries. Shouldn't it be able to damage a vehicle a little more than normal? Say instead of reducing the power by 1/2, use the normal power of the attack ...

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Adarael]

[Austere Emancipa...]

There is no halving of BOD in SR for unconscious characters, the bodies of magicians who are astrally projecting, etc. I think there's one particular type of immobility which causes a +3 on Damage Resistance tests, but there's no such rule for anything else. And to make it absolutely clear, the secguard in my example is completely capable of moving or rolling with the hit, just like the rigger-controlled drone in question.

Still, none of my concern. Melee weapons don't penetrate inches of hardened steel in my game, and never will. If you want to allow them to in yours, go ahead.

[mfb]

i'm sure about the barrier-only thing, for dikote, as i just looked it up. armor is not subject to halving by dikote. or, well, armor ratings aren't.

[Kremlin KOA]

blakkie BBB pg 149 shows that only burst and full auto mod is ignored, also that special ammo damage mods are SPECIFICALLY stated to work against vehicle armor. therefore the two handed approach works. making that other thread even funnier.

Adarael, it was 2nd ed that dikote made edged things AV (in 2nd ed you removed the dikote modifier and treated the vehicle as a non vehicular target for damage purposes... dikote shuriken in trollish hands rocked back then)

Austere, you mean like that incident in WW2 france where a french lancer charged a german tank and had his lance penetrate the front armor killing the pilot? (the gunner mowed the bastard down with the pintle mount right after but the lance still stuck out of the tank) and that wasn't dikote sharpness. force applied is momentum/surface area and a dikote edge has a far smaller surface area than a bullet. maybe enough to more than make up for the difference in momentum (momentum of course being velocity*mass)

[Necro Tech]

Oddly, by cannon, melee weapons aren't mentioned in regards to harming vehicles. The section dealing with damaging attacks against vehicles starts with the sentence "If a character is shooting at a vehicle......". No where does it ever mention melee attacks. Grenades, spells, explosions and gun fire are mentioned but no melee. Hmmmmmm. Weird oversite or were they just thinking that melee weapons use the rules for barriers (like all weapons against vehicle armor) like in 2nd edition.

Hard to believe no one ever mentioned this. Or am I just not seeing it?

[blakkie]