 Hows this for an A.R.?, Custom Assault Rifle |
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 Oct 8 2004, 01:06 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 7-October 04 From: The Barrens Member No.: 6,732  |
Heres an idea for an assault rifle.
Design Option FCU cost Bullpup Configuration -.5 Heavy Barrel -.25 Increase Power (1) -.25 Recoil Compensation (2) -1 Selectable Clip -.5 Barrel Extension -.5 Increased FCU +.25 Ceramic Component -.25 Modification FCU Cost Foregrip -0 Extended Clip -0 Nickel and Ivory -0 Personalized Grip -0 Grenade Launcher -.25( r) Rigid Stock -0 External Smartlink-II -.25( r) Power 9 Damage Level Moderate Mode Semi-auto, Burst Fire, Full Auto Concealability 2 Weight 6 Ammunition Capacity 50/50 Ammunition Loading Clip/Clip Mount Barrel, Top, Under FCU 0 DPV 935 Total Cost ¥4675 Recoil Compensation 7 Can you have the removable things [( r)] bring the FCU cost below zero? |
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Oct 8 2004, 01:10 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 241 Joined: 20-September 04 Member No.: 6,682 |
huh, below zero? They just remove the FCU cost of the item.
Removable means it's slotted on the mount, not permanently in place. I've never been able to fathom why you'd ever opt to make it all internal...? |
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Oct 8 2004, 01:44 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 5-August 04 Member No.: 6,541 |
I gather you just got Cannon Companion, UPTD, or that you're rather new here, or both. In any case, most people have looked through the CC weapon creation rules, and have probably written down a weapon themselves. In any case, and I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, you could probably keep this sort of stuff to yourself. Also, you can't take up a single mount twice, as you have with the foregrip and the grenade launcher.
If you like weapons, however, then I could probably point you here, for the ultimate source for shadowrun firearms, and here, for guns in general. |
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Oct 8 2004, 01:46 AM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 7-October 04 From: The Barrens Member No.: 6,732 |
HAHA! yes, you are correct. I am new with the CC and Dumpshock.
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Oct 8 2004, 01:57 AM
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#5
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No no no no no no no. When intermixed with standard SR3 guns and rules, Raygun's weapons are even more horribly broken than the monstrosities that can come out of Cannon Companion. Used alone, they can be cohesive, realistic, and fun, but don't just toss someone a link and say "here's good additional firearms for Shadowrun", because they aren't. ~J |
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Oct 8 2004, 02:06 AM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Good categorical advice, but I will point out that not all of Raygun's weapons are incompatible. Just most.
Still, all that aside, listen to Kayne; the rules are abominably fucked up and really not worth anyone's time. Even if you have no plans to use Raygun's material in your game, there's a wealth of information there you may find interesting. Just as a forewarning, though, the more you learn about real firearms, the more Shadowrun will make your brain hurt. |
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Oct 8 2004, 02:11 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 241 Joined: 20-September 04 Member No.: 6,682 |
This is painfully true... I really prefer to use the CC rules, just because at least the pain is consistent that way.
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Oct 8 2004, 02:34 AM
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#8
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I tend to put my knowledge of real firearms under the Suspension of Disbelief category. Along with everything real-life when I play RPGs.
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Oct 8 2004, 02:37 AM
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#9
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Welcome to Dumpshock. :wavey: Please feel free to ask about anything you want. You might want to use the search feature to find any previous discussion on particular issues, some of which you'll notice pop up more often than one might think. Don't let anyone discourage you from experimenting! A lot of us have been playing and GMing for many years, and sometimes forget the thrill of first cracking a book and making their first weapon(s). Just try to keep in mind the overall feel of the game when designing things for your game. Come up with a realistic reason why a company would mass-produce any such weapon. :) |
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Oct 8 2004, 03:19 AM
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#10
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I wouldn't go so far as to say the guns on my site are "more horribly broken than the monstrosities that can come out of Cannon Companion" (I'm trying hard not to be insulted by that, having seen some of the sheer insanity that has been perpetuated by the CC rules), but they are a little different than straight-out-of-the-books firearms. My intention was to make the game a bit more deadly. Using the guns on my site has a tendency to do just that. If that's not what you're looking for, then you probably shouldn't use them. Whether that equals "broken" or not is up to you. Anyway, aside from the 7 points of recoil compensation, the excessively large ammunition capacity and the nickel and ivory finish (good one!), UPTD's assault rifle seems fine to me. I guess that's not saying much.
Like what? |
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Oct 8 2004, 03:34 AM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
The holdouts are far more powerful than SR offerings. The heavier pistols (mostly revolvers, etc) also unbalance the canon numbers, and the SMGs, for the most part, simply don't fit. Assault rifles tend to be fine, but battle rifles are pretty much more powerful than what's allowed per canon (discounting the even more insane CC creation rules). HMGs flatly go beyond anything comparable in game.
It may not sound so bad to you, but when you factor in someone who sees no problem with his troll carrying an M2HB and then tricking it out with a foregrip, Gas Vent 4, shock pads, and god knows what else, you see a problem fast approaching (Danger! You gotta recognise!). SR firearms are bad enough, but introducing real life only part way just makes things worse. In that sense, I'll stand by Kagetenshi's statement, even if I feel it's a bit farther reaching than it has right to be. |
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Oct 8 2004, 03:49 AM
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#12
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The ERASe has traumatized me for life. No insult was intended, merely emphasis that your guns tend to be significantly more deadly than canon ones, even a lot of the Cannon Companion-created ones (though yours are at least physically possible). I perhaps should amend that to: throwing those guns into a game where some of the group are still thinking in terms of (and using) canon weapons is a good way to get an unhappy group quick. ~J |
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Oct 8 2004, 03:51 AM
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#13
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
It has come up in conversation here before hat SR holdouts need some juicing up just to be relavent against anyone save a blind, comatose, retired librarian. So frankly IMO they get to stay on those grounds. ;) However for the rest they are really a different system of weapons that aren't overly compatible with the canon ones. To take them piecemeal into an existing game is not good. To take and use them across a game, much better. |
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Oct 8 2004, 04:01 AM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Ignore the innate armor piercing and most will suddenly be balanced with SR weaponry. Well, except that they all weigh realistic amounts and light pistols can actually be useful.
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Oct 8 2004, 04:38 AM
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#15
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
And that's a bad thing?
Again, depends on where you're sitting. They actually bring more balance to the game because that's how it really is. A .454 is really going to fuck up your day.
How is that?
That's "balanced" by a standard 2x recoil modifier.
Considering that there aren't any HMGs on my site, I don't see how you can make that comparison.
Exactly. You gotta recognize what a Troll would be capable of, and that, unfortunately for the smaller beings, is one of the things a troll should pretty easily be capable of pulling off. An HMG to a Troll would be like an assault rifle to you and me. What is "unbalanced"? You spend your time playing a game that is terribly askew from the start, you're going to see things a bit differently when someone attempts to straighten them out a bit. I admit that my attempt at straightening things out is not as thorough as I'd like it to be, but it's really not that bad at all, in the overall picture.
Well, see, that's only half true, I think. You can drop one of my guns into the game pretty seamlessly, it's when you start tacking canon accessories onto them that the problem arises. Honestly, I don't think it's as big a deal as it's being made out to be, though.
The thing I have to keep reminding people about it is that it's real. It would traumatize me, too.
Again, that only tends to happen when you mix the canon accessories with my guns. You can have a canon gun and one of my guns run in a game together perfectly fine. It's when you go about trying to tweaking my guns with canon accessory rules that things tend to go badly. That's an area in which I wish I had more time to mess around with.
It might. Depends on the group, I think.
True. The "rifle = x0.75 AP" thing is a broad rule that's designed to be used with all firearms in the game. If you're using it with my rifles, you should use it with all of the rifles in the game, including canon rifles. |
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Oct 8 2004, 04:43 AM
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#16
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Right, which is in my experience exactly what will end up happening if someone tosses your site to someone and says "here, better firearms" with no further explanation. Not your fault, I was attacking Kayne's insufficient explanation of what was being given rather than your rules and weapons. I do, however, want to point out that your statement that your weapons "bring more balance to the game because that's really how it is" is in error. Realism does not of necessity equal balance, as people discover to their misfortune every day. ~J |
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Oct 8 2004, 06:58 AM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 5-August 04 Member No.: 6,541 |
Let no good deed go unpunished. Are we protecting the newbies from themselves, now? All I did was pass UPTD a link with a brief description (perhaps with a little praise for Raygun and his hard work). Let him decide what he wants to use in his game. |
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Oct 8 2004, 08:39 AM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I think you'd agree that RL is more balanced than SR canon, though. At least as far as firearms and ranged combat is concerned. IRL, it's impossible to categorically say that one firearm is better than another. Everything has a downside. Most things which give huge advantages in RL ranged combat are very limited in their scope, and often royally fuck up something else. The problem is in making rules for all the tiny little details that make RL balanced. It's just not possible, and even taking a small fraction of them into account complicates the game far too much. For example, there're no (reasonable) rules for making sniping rifles or MGs difficult to properly wield in CQB like they are IRL. The lack of reliability and increased maintenance needs of most new technologies are in no way taken into account. And because of this, it may sometimes be a good idea to shave off realism in guns to maintain balance. While electronic recoil adjustment might be extremely effective IRL, it has downsides (witnessed by the lack of such systems in common use, I don't know enough about the system to say much more about it). Because rules for why it's not a be-all end-all recoil compensation system are hard to come up with, it might be better to simply reduce its effectiveness by a reasonable amount. In an abstract system, instead of making the weapons as close to real as possible based on just the few figures and rules the game system takes into account, it may be better to compensate for some of the things that the system does not take into account by tweaking the few things it does. That said, the Pred3 ERASe isn't quite as bad as I remembered. It's more concealable and definitely lighter than a similar pistol built with the CC rules, but that's about it. Can't be bothered to do a full comparison of a munched-out, BF HP by CC rules now. |
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Oct 8 2004, 11:31 AM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Heavy Pistol
9M, SA, Conc 5, W 2.75, 10C, Barrel&Top, 2 FCU, 120 DPV Firing Mode SA/BF, +100DP, -1 FCU, +0.5kg Heavy Barrel, +25DP, -0.25 FCU, +0.5kg Improved Conc 2, +40DP, -0.5 FCU, +2 Conc Improved FCU 3, +30DP, +0.50 FCU Recoil Compensation 1, +70DP, -0.5 FCU, +0.25kg Weight Decrease 6, +30 DP, -1.5kg Internal Smartlink-2, +180DP, -0.5 FCU, +0.25kg Extended Clip 5, +10DP Added Gas Vent III, -2 Conc, +0.75kg, +700 nuyen 9M, SA/BF, RC 5, Conc 5, 3.5kg, 605 DP + 700 nuyen. Price for a unique gun: 3,725 :nuyen:. For a production gun, according to this article, 2,092 :nuyen:. This has the exact same capabilities as the Ares Predator III ERASe, except that it cannot accept a sound suppressor and weighs 1.6kg more. For complete recoil compensation, add Personalized Grips for 125 :nuyen: or upgrade to Gas Vent IV for 300 :nuyen:. |
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Oct 8 2004, 11:43 AM
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#20
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The inability to accept a suppressor makes that a decent amount less frightening.
~J |
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Oct 8 2004, 11:44 AM
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#21
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
Although the canon companion rules can be used to create some outrageous weapons (like the one above) if you are reasonable with it I think it is better than being arbitrary. There are serton weapon mods in it that many would want but are not available on any slandered weapon such as bull pup configuration and selectable clip. All you need is a GM that is wiling to say “no that would be broken” when you sagest the HV SMG that lets you fire 2 bursts with no recoil 100 rounds in each weapon and the conselability of a holdout.
As to the need of mass production I consider most mass-produced weapons to be designed by the GM on the odd occasion where they are not in the book. If you have the skills or contacts you can get a truly custom weapon. Edward |
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Oct 8 2004, 11:45 AM
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#22
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Target Group: Members Posts: 32 Joined: 9-September 04 Member No.: 6,639 |
I have to wonder if anyone runs Shadowrun without some degree of house rules regarding firearms, even if it's just to say "the Slivergun doesn't exist," always my house rule #1 followed by "I won't snipe if you don't snipe."
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Oct 8 2004, 11:55 AM
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#23
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I really have never seen the game-balance problems with the AVS that people claim. Sure it's a physically improbable (to say the least) weapon, but it's not significantly better than the others, considering the flechette-only limitation. It's a killer at unarmored parties, but then again, so are a pair of Tiffani Needlers in that situation.
~J |
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Oct 8 2004, 12:34 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Slightly less frightening, yes. But I wouldn't call paying 1,000 :nuyen: for a +2 TN to hear the weapon fired "horribly broken". |
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Oct 8 2004, 12:38 PM
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#25
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You're right, the difference is less than I thought it was. I'm going to have to take another look at everything.
~J |
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