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UPTD
Heres an idea for an assault rifle.

Design Option FCU cost
Bullpup Configuration -.5
Heavy Barrel -.25
Increase Power (1) -.25
Recoil Compensation (2) -1
Selectable Clip -.5
Barrel Extension -.5
Increased FCU +.25
Ceramic Component -.25

Modification FCU Cost
Foregrip -0
Extended Clip -0
Nickel and Ivory -0
Personalized Grip -0
Grenade Launcher -.25( r)
Rigid Stock -0
External Smartlink-II -.25( r)

Power 9
Damage Level Moderate
Mode Semi-auto, Burst Fire, Full Auto
Concealability 2
Weight 6
Ammunition Capacity 50/50
Ammunition Loading Clip/Clip
Mount Barrel, Top, Under
FCU 0
DPV 935
Total Cost 4675
Recoil Compensation 7

Can you have the removable things [( r)] bring the FCU cost below zero?
Zenmaxer
huh, below zero? They just remove the FCU cost of the item.

Removable means it's slotted on the mount, not permanently in place. I've never been able to fathom why you'd ever opt to make it all internal...?
Kayne
I gather you just got Cannon Companion, UPTD, or that you're rather new here, or both. In any case, most people have looked through the CC weapon creation rules, and have probably written down a weapon themselves. In any case, and I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, you could probably keep this sort of stuff to yourself. Also, you can't take up a single mount twice, as you have with the foregrip and the grenade launcher.

If you like weapons, however, then I could probably point you here, for the ultimate source for shadowrun firearms, and here, for guns in general.
UPTD
HAHA! yes, you are correct. I am new with the CC and Dumpshock.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Kayne)
If you like weapons, however, than I could prbably point you here, for the ultimate source for shadowrun firearms

No no no no no no no. When intermixed with standard SR3 guns and rules, Raygun's weapons are even more horribly broken than the monstrosities that can come out of Cannon Companion. Used alone, they can be cohesive, realistic, and fun, but don't just toss someone a link and say "here's good additional firearms for Shadowrun", because they aren't.

~J
Arethusa
Good categorical advice, but I will point out that not all of Raygun's weapons are incompatible. Just most.

Still, all that aside, listen to Kayne; the rules are abominably fucked up and really not worth anyone's time. Even if you have no plans to use Raygun's material in your game, there's a wealth of information there you may find interesting. Just as a forewarning, though, the more you learn about real firearms, the more Shadowrun will make your brain hurt.
Zenmaxer
This is painfully true... I really prefer to use the CC rules, just because at least the pain is consistent that way.
toturi
I tend to put my knowledge of real firearms under the Suspension of Disbelief category. Along with everything real-life when I play RPGs.
Fortune
QUOTE (UPTD)
HAHA! yes, you are correct. I am new with the CC and Dumpshock.

Welcome to Dumpshock. wavey.gif

Please feel free to ask about anything you want. You might want to use the search feature to find any previous discussion on particular issues, some of which you'll notice pop up more often than one might think.

Don't let anyone discourage you from experimenting! A lot of us have been playing and GMing for many years, and sometimes forget the thrill of first cracking a book and making their first weapon(s). Just try to keep in mind the overall feel of the game when designing things for your game. Come up with a realistic reason why a company would mass-produce any such weapon. smile.gif
Raygun
I wouldn't go so far as to say the guns on my site are "more horribly broken than the monstrosities that can come out of Cannon Companion" (I'm trying hard not to be insulted by that, having seen some of the sheer insanity that has been perpetuated by the CC rules), but they are a little different than straight-out-of-the-books firearms.

My intention was to make the game a bit more deadly. Using the guns on my site has a tendency to do just that. If that's not what you're looking for, then you probably shouldn't use them. Whether that equals "broken" or not is up to you.

Anyway, aside from the 7 points of recoil compensation, the excessively large ammunition capacity and the nickel and ivory finish (good one!), UPTD's assault rifle seems fine to me. I guess that's not saying much.

QUOTE (Arethusa)
Good categorical advice, but I will point out that not all of Raygun's weapons are incompatible. Just most.

Like what?
Arethusa
The holdouts are far more powerful than SR offerings. The heavier pistols (mostly revolvers, etc) also unbalance the canon numbers, and the SMGs, for the most part, simply don't fit. Assault rifles tend to be fine, but battle rifles are pretty much more powerful than what's allowed per canon (discounting the even more insane CC creation rules). HMGs flatly go beyond anything comparable in game.

It may not sound so bad to you, but when you factor in someone who sees no problem with his troll carrying an M2HB and then tricking it out with a foregrip, Gas Vent 4, shock pads, and god knows what else, you see a problem fast approaching (Danger! You gotta recognise!). SR firearms are bad enough, but introducing real life only part way just makes things worse. In that sense, I'll stand by Kagetenshi's statement, even if I feel it's a bit farther reaching than it has right to be.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Raygun @ Oct 7 2004, 10:19 PM)
(I'm trying hard not to be insulted by that, having seen some of the sheer insanity that has been perpetuated by the CC rules)

The ERASe has traumatized me for life. No insult was intended, merely emphasis that your guns tend to be significantly more deadly than canon ones, even a lot of the Cannon Companion-created ones (though yours are at least physically possible).

I perhaps should amend that to: throwing those guns into a game where some of the group are still thinking in terms of (and using) canon weapons is a good way to get an unhappy group quick.

~J
blakkie
QUOTE
The holdouts are far more powerful than SR offerings.


It has come up in conversation here before hat SR holdouts need some juicing up just to be relavent against anyone save a blind, comatose, retired librarian. So frankly IMO they get to stay on those grounds. wink.gif However for the rest they are really a different system of weapons that aren't overly compatible with the canon ones. To take them piecemeal into an existing game is not good. To take and use them across a game, much better.
Herald of Verjigorm
Ignore the innate armor piercing and most will suddenly be balanced with SR weaponry. Well, except that they all weigh realistic amounts and light pistols can actually be useful.
Raygun
QUOTE (Arethusa)
The holdouts are far more powerful than SR offerings.

And that's a bad thing?

QUOTE
The heavier pistols (mostly revolvers, etc) also unbalance the canon numbers,

Again, depends on where you're sitting. They actually bring more balance to the game because that's how it really is. A .454 is really going to fuck up your day.

QUOTE
and the SMGs, for the most part, simply don't fit.

How is that?

QUOTE
Assault rifles tend to be fine, but battle rifles are pretty much more powerful than what's allowed per canon (discounting the even more insane CC creation rules).

That's "balanced" by a standard 2x recoil modifier.

QUOTE
HMGs flatly go beyond anything comparable in game.

Considering that there aren't any HMGs on my site, I don't see how you can make that comparison.

QUOTE
It may not sound so bad to you, but when you factor in someone who sees no problem with his troll carrying an M2HB and then tricking it out with a foregrip, Gas Vent 4, shock pads, and god knows what else, you see a problem fast approaching (Danger!  You gotta recognise!).

Exactly. You gotta recognize what a Troll would be capable of, and that, unfortunately for the smaller beings, is one of the things a troll should pretty easily be capable of pulling off. An HMG to a Troll would be like an assault rifle to you and me.

What is "unbalanced"? You spend your time playing a game that is terribly askew from the start, you're going to see things a bit differently when someone attempts to straighten them out a bit. I admit that my attempt at straightening things out is not as thorough as I'd like it to be, but it's really not that bad at all, in the overall picture.

QUOTE
SR firearms are bad enough, but introducing real life only part way just makes things worse.

Well, see, that's only half true, I think. You can drop one of my guns into the game pretty seamlessly, it's when you start tacking canon accessories onto them that the problem arises. Honestly, I don't think it's as big a deal as it's being made out to be, though.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
The ERASe has traumatized me for life.

The thing I have to keep reminding people about it is that it's real. It would traumatize me, too.

QUOTE
No insult was intended, merely emphasis that your guns tend to be significantly more deadly than canon ones, even a lot of the Cannon Companion-created ones (though yours are at least physically possible).

Again, that only tends to happen when you mix the canon accessories with my guns. You can have a canon gun and one of my guns run in a game together perfectly fine. It's when you go about trying to tweaking my guns with canon accessory rules that things tend to go badly. That's an area in which I wish I had more time to mess around with.

QUOTE
I perhaps should amend that to: throwing those guns into a game where some of the group are still thinking in terms of (and using) canon weapons is a good way to get an unhappy group quick.

It might. Depends on the group, I think.

QUOTE
Ignore the innate armor piercing and most will suddenly be balanced with SR weaponry.

True. The "rifle = x0.75 AP" thing is a broad rule that's designed to be used with all firearms in the game. If you're using it with my rifles, you should use it with all of the rifles in the game, including canon rifles.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE
No insult was intended, merely emphasis that your guns tend to be significantly more deadly than canon ones, even a lot of the Cannon Companion-created ones (though yours are at least physically possible).

Again, that only tends to happen when you mix the canon accessories with my guns. You can have a canon gun and one of my guns run in a game together perfectly fine. It's when you go about trying to tweaking my guns with canon accessory rules that things tend to go badly. That's an area in which I wish I had more time to mess around with.

Right, which is in my experience exactly what will end up happening if someone tosses your site to someone and says "here, better firearms" with no further explanation. Not your fault, I was attacking Kayne's insufficient explanation of what was being given rather than your rules and weapons.

I do, however, want to point out that your statement that your weapons "bring more balance to the game because that's really how it is" is in error. Realism does not of necessity equal balance, as people discover to their misfortune every day.

~J
Kayne
QUOTE
Not your fault, I was attacking Kayne's insufficient explanation of what was being given rather than your rules and weapons.


Let no good deed go unpunished.

Are we protecting the newbies from themselves, now? All I did was pass UPTD a link with a brief description (perhaps with a little praise for Raygun and his hard work). Let him decide what he wants to use in his game.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I do, however, want to point out that your statement that your weapons "bring more balance to the game because that's really how it is" is in error. Realism does not of necessity equal balance, as people discover to their misfortune every day.

I think you'd agree that RL is more balanced than SR canon, though. At least as far as firearms and ranged combat is concerned. IRL, it's impossible to categorically say that one firearm is better than another. Everything has a downside. Most things which give huge advantages in RL ranged combat are very limited in their scope, and often royally fuck up something else.

The problem is in making rules for all the tiny little details that make RL balanced. It's just not possible, and even taking a small fraction of them into account complicates the game far too much. For example, there're no (reasonable) rules for making sniping rifles or MGs difficult to properly wield in CQB like they are IRL. The lack of reliability and increased maintenance needs of most new technologies are in no way taken into account.

And because of this, it may sometimes be a good idea to shave off realism in guns to maintain balance. While electronic recoil adjustment might be extremely effective IRL, it has downsides (witnessed by the lack of such systems in common use, I don't know enough about the system to say much more about it). Because rules for why it's not a be-all end-all recoil compensation system are hard to come up with, it might be better to simply reduce its effectiveness by a reasonable amount.

In an abstract system, instead of making the weapons as close to real as possible based on just the few figures and rules the game system takes into account, it may be better to compensate for some of the things that the system does not take into account by tweaking the few things it does.

That said, the Pred3 ERASe isn't quite as bad as I remembered. It's more concealable and definitely lighter than a similar pistol built with the CC rules, but that's about it. Can't be bothered to do a full comparison of a munched-out, BF HP by CC rules now.
Austere Emancipator
Heavy Pistol
9M, SA, Conc 5, W 2.75, 10C, Barrel&Top, 2 FCU, 120 DPV
Firing Mode SA/BF, +100DP, -1 FCU, +0.5kg
Heavy Barrel, +25DP, -0.25 FCU, +0.5kg
Improved Conc 2, +40DP, -0.5 FCU, +2 Conc
Improved FCU 3, +30DP, +0.50 FCU
Recoil Compensation 1, +70DP, -0.5 FCU, +0.25kg
Weight Decrease 6, +30 DP, -1.5kg

Internal Smartlink-2, +180DP, -0.5 FCU, +0.25kg
Extended Clip 5, +10DP
Added Gas Vent III, -2 Conc, +0.75kg, +700 nuyen

9M, SA/BF, RC 5, Conc 5, 3.5kg, 605 DP + 700 nuyen. Price for a unique gun: 3,725 nuyen.gif. For a production gun, according to this article, 2,092 nuyen.gif. This has the exact same capabilities as the Ares Predator III ERASe, except that it cannot accept a sound suppressor and weighs 1.6kg more. For complete recoil compensation, add Personalized Grips for 125 nuyen.gif or upgrade to Gas Vent IV for 300 nuyen.gif.
Kagetenshi
The inability to accept a suppressor makes that a decent amount less frightening.

~J
Edward
Although the canon companion rules can be used to create some outrageous weapons (like the one above) if you are reasonable with it I think it is better than being arbitrary. There are serton weapon mods in it that many would want but are not available on any slandered weapon such as bull pup configuration and selectable clip. All you need is a GM that is wiling to say “no that would be broken” when you sagest the HV SMG that lets you fire 2 bursts with no recoil 100 rounds in each weapon and the conselability of a holdout.

As to the need of mass production I consider most mass-produced weapons to be designed by the GM on the odd occasion where they are not in the book. If you have the skills or contacts you can get a truly custom weapon.

Edward
Kincaid
I have to wonder if anyone runs Shadowrun without some degree of house rules regarding firearms, even if it's just to say "the Slivergun doesn't exist," always my house rule #1 followed by "I won't snipe if you don't snipe."
Kagetenshi
I really have never seen the game-balance problems with the AVS that people claim. Sure it's a physically improbable (to say the least) weapon, but it's not significantly better than the others, considering the flechette-only limitation. It's a killer at unarmored parties, but then again, so are a pair of Tiffani Needlers in that situation.

~J
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
The inability to accept a suppressor makes that a decent amount less frightening.

Slightly less frightening, yes. But I wouldn't call paying 1,000 nuyen.gif for a +2 TN to hear the weapon fired "horribly broken".
Kagetenshi
You're right, the difference is less than I thought it was. I'm going to have to take another look at everything.

~J
The Burning One
Quite simply I don't see the point of the custom designed weapons. There are more than enough weapons in the existing source books to cover pretty much every need. They're about as close to "Balanced" as you're going to get within that game system. Custom built (Cannon or Otherwise) means you're introducing something that the game designers never intended. It probably won't fit in perfectly with the base game system so be prepared for it if you're willing to allow it to happen.

Also people have repeated referred to Real Life as being balanced. I'm half tempted to get someone to explain in detail how they believe that to be true. However I don't have the time or inclination to argue the point. For now suffice it to say that I disagree 100%.

Real life is not balanced. From my extremely limited exposure the information I've come across suggests that weapons technology has far outpaced the armour available on the market. The weapons and armour in Shadowrun were made that way so that a character has a reasonably good chance of surviving being shot with a powerful weapon (heavy pistol or better) when it's in the hands of a competent individual (Skill 3 or 4) and then continuing to function afterwards.

Encounter the same situation in "real life" and the armour may very well save your life but I doubt you'll be doing much of anything after you've been shot. Keep in mind this is me talking out of my a$$ mostly as I have extremely limited exposure to this sort of thing but overall I don't think I'm that far wrong.

Anyone care to correct me on this one?

TBO
Raygun
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Right, which is in my experience exactly what will end up happening if someone tosses your site to someone and says "here, better firearms" with no further explanation. Not your fault, I was attacking Kayne's insufficient explanation of what was being given rather than your rules and weapons.

Okay. Understandable. But I think your explaination was a bit excessive. That's my problem.

QUOTE
I do, however, want to point out that your statement that your weapons "bring more balance to the game because that's really how it is" is in error. Realism does not of necessity equal balance, as people discover to their misfortune every day.

I guess this is just another example of how game balance is a totally subjective thing. To me, the game as it is from the books is no way balanced. Some people are going to be able to plug my stuff right in, some are not. It's just perspective.

QUOTE (Kayne)
Are we protecting the newbies from themselves, now? All I did was pass UPTD a link with a brief description (perhaps with a little praise for Raygun and his hard work). Let him decide what he wants to use in his game.

There's no harm in people pointing out problems that they have run into, either. You just have to go into to it understanding that not everyone plays the game the same way, and that their problems might not be problems to you. Problems are one thing, and are usually solved by very minor changes. "Horribly broken" is another. Considering what UPTD has come up with using the CC rules, I don't think he'd have any problem using the guns on my site.

QUOTE (The Burning One)
Also people have repeated referred to Real Life as being balanced. I'm half tempted to get someone to explain in detail how they believe that to be true.

I'm half tempted to have you explain in detail how it isn't.

The correct answer here is, again, that it is all perspective. If "balanced" means that the chances of your character dying from a single gunshot are very slim, so that it is possible to pull off great feats of John Woo-type action in your game, then that's fine. That's balanced to you. However, it is in no way realistic, and I personally prefer to play a game in which firearms are not treated in the manner you see them treated in movies, comics, and most video games. Guns come out only when things get very, very serious, and usually someone is going to die in the process of the battle. And I mean dead characters. End of game. More lethality makes better balance to me.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (The Question Man)
The weapons and armour in Shadowrun were made that way so that a character has a reasonably good chance of surviving being shot with a powerful weapon (heavy pistol or better) when it's in the hands of a competent individual (Skill 3 or 4) and then continuing to function afterwards.

Like Raygun already said, if "balanced" means "people can survive gunshots without too much trouble" to you, then you won't find RL all that balanced, because IRL people do often get killed by gunshots.

That said, weapon technology has been well ahead of armor technology for the best part of 500 years, ever since firearms came into common use. Only now is armor technology catching up. You can currently get a $450 armor vest that weighs less than 3kg that will protect your torso against most common pistol shots.

Yes, you might be temporarily disabled by a shot that has been stopped by soft body armor, because it just plain hurts a lot, like a sudden 2" depression in a small area is bound to -- or you might not even notice that you've been shot, finding the slight bruise and stretched ballistic weaving only well after the shooting's done.

Add two 10" x 12" ceramic plates, at $240 and 2.5kg each, and your vitals are protected against most rifle shots and all pistol shots from the front and back. With these, it would be no wonder to be completely unscathed by a 10-round burst to the chest from an AK at point blank range, as long as all the bullets hit the area protected by the plate and no more than 2 in the exact same spot. The blunt trauma would be insignificant.

Of course wearing that armor also has its downsides -- like all things do in a balanced system. It limits your upper body movements, and it's 8kg extra to lug around. Plus it's not exactly easy to get your hands on if you happen to be a criminal, and you sure as hell can't wear it in public without drawing a whole lot of attention.

You need only look at the immense range of gear found in use by the most elite military units in the world to see that there generally are no "absolute bests" IRL, at least as far ranged combat is concerned.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Edward @ Oct 8 2004, 05:44 AM)
Although the canon companion rules can be used to create some outrageous weapons (like the one above) if you are reasonable with it I think it is better than being arbitrary.

That's the big point that people tend to ignore around here.

Hell, the much-praised and fan-created FCG rules found on the web is equally-abusable (in fact, more abusable when compared to canonical firearms -- doubly so if you use Raygun's addition), but the same people that tend to chastise the rules in the Cannon Companion tend to tout its merits. The only real difference between the two is the FCG uses meaningless (game mechanically-speaking) terms like "caliber" and offers more (and thus more abusable combinations of) options.

But, as you were saying, the point is that you have to be reasonable no matter what rules you use. Some people just choose not to be, thus you wind up with things like the ERASEr, HK21, and Steyr IWS 2500. Though to give credit where it's due, at least the ERASEr was a genuine attempt at being creative and original.

QUOTE (Raygun)
My intention was to make the game a bit more deadly.

That would be the mantra of everyone who provides broken/overpowered rules. That and "...a bit more realistic."
Raygun
*yawn*

Oh, Funk. If you go and dig up another two week-old thread to start a fight in, I might really have to get upset...

We all know you think I suck and we're all duly impressed with your ability to harbor a grudge. However, there is no acceptable excuse for you to rail my work unprovoked at every possible opportunity, including those that have passed weeks before hand.

Grow up.

The End.
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