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> Spells requiring touch., Few questions.
GrinderTheTroll
post Oct 8 2004, 04:22 PM
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So I admittedly haven't researched this alot and want to know specifically how this works:

Mage has a Elemental Manipulation spell (Lightning Touch) that requires Touch to work. In order to land this on a target it's my understanding he'd need to get one success on the Melee attack to touch then the spell goes off.

Does that mean he gets to take 2 complex actions (one for the Melee Attack and one for casting the spell) in one Combat Phase? Or does he cast the spell (Phase 1), then touch his target (Phase 2). Or vice versa? Or am I overlooking something about touch-spells?

Thanks.
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Cochise
post Oct 8 2004, 04:25 PM
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The melee "attack" and the act of casting the spell are considered to be in one complex action => Melee test at reduced TN (-1). If you succeed to touch the target you instantly resolve the spellcasting test with all necessary steps ...
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Dashifen
post Oct 8 2004, 04:27 PM
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These make good spells for magician adepts who also have improved combat ability: unarmed combat :) Rolling scads of dice to hit and being able to shock, burn, freeze, blind, etc. due to elemental effects can make a fun character. Just go back to DnD and look at all those low level touch based spells and remake them: Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Burning Hands, etc.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Oct 8 2004, 04:43 PM
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Thanks for the clarity, that's how we've been resolving it.

Yeah the mage is question is using a sword (also a wepaon focus) as a Fetish with his line of Elemental Spells, so it gives them some dramatic flare as well.

Here's the kicker. The spells have lowerd drain (for the touch and fetish requirement), the weapon foci add their rating in dice to your skill test and the damn thing has a +1 reach! Semi-muchkin, yeah since the only real drawback seems to be without the sword they're worthless.
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Cochise
post Oct 8 2004, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
Yeah the mage is question is using a sword (also a wepaon focus) as a Fetish with his line of Elemental Spells, so it gives them some dramatic flare as well.  .

This however is depending on how explicitly you interpret "Touch" ... For me "Touch" range requires you to physically touch your opponent with your hand or other body part not just an extension like a melee weapon .. Otherwise you'd be in touch with whoever happens to live on this earth and currently touches the ground ...

QUOTE
Here's the kicker.  The spells have lowerd drain (for the touch and fetish requirement), the weapon foci add their rating in dice to your skill test and the damn thing has a +1 reach! Semi-muchkin, yeah since the only real drawback seems to be without the sword they're worthless


So your "kicker" wouldn't work in my games ... The utmost I'd allow would be some sort of glove (including the shockglove which then wouldn't cause its damage since, you're merely touching and not hitting) between you and the target (where target means physical body including clothes) ...
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GrinderTheTroll
post Oct 8 2004, 05:01 PM
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Hmm, good points. I'll have to have a closer look at how "touch" is defined.
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spotlite
post Oct 8 2004, 05:01 PM
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I thought the shock gloves only required a touch? I mean you've only got to lay a palm on them, don't you? Or is it triggered by a sharp blow? In which case kiss your smartlinked assault rifle goodbye next time you fire on full auto wearing one of those gloves.
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Cochise
post Oct 8 2004, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (spotlite)
I thought the shock gloves only required a touch? I mean you've only got to lay a palm on them, don't you? Or is it triggered by a sharp blow? In which case kiss your smartlinked assault rifle goodbye next time you fire on full auto wearing one of those gloves.

First of all shock gloves do an STR-1 M Stun damage along with the 8S Stun shock damage ... This implies that you have to actually strike somebody. The next thing is that taken the common way of hitting persons is with a closed fist, I'm treating shock gloves as having their contacts at the knuckles and not in your palm ...

That's also the reason why I don't let them "fire" when you intentionally try to touch someone, because usually you do that with an opened hand and in most cases you succeed with your fingers and not with your knuckles ...
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Little Bill
post Oct 8 2004, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE (Cochise)

This however is depending on how explicitly you interpret "Touch" ... For me "Touch" range requires you to physically touch your opponent with your hand or other body part not just an extension like a melee weapon .. Otherwise you'd be in touch with whoever happens to live on this earth and currently touches the ground ...

However, the weapon focus isn't an artificial extension, it is effectively part of the mage - because he has bound it to him with karma.
The mage has no connection to the earth, and so can't use it to channel his spells through, but an active weapon focus is part of him.
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Cochise
post Oct 8 2004, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (Little Bill)
However, the weapon focus isn't an artificial extension, it is effectively part of the mage - because he has bound it to him with karma.

That's a rather philosophical view, just as what "Touch" actually is ;)

QUOTE
The mage has no connection to the earth, and so can't use it to channel his spells through, but an active weapon focus is part of him.


How about this one: Our magician is a Idol follower of Gaia. Earth itself is his Idol / Godess and he lives in tune with his Godess ... He himself is the natural extention of Earth, just as anything living on Earth ...

I can easily come up with an hermetic explantion that would lead to a similar explaination as to why a magician can be in "touch" with everything albeit not having paid karma to bond the whole world ...

You see: It all depends on perspective, thus calling a weapon focus a "natural" extension of a mage is not the best way to back up your POV. At best it's a magical extension of the magician's body ... But that doesn't resolve the issue about the magician fulfilling the touch requirement, which can be answered depending on POVs as well: My answer is that the weapon focus does not meet the requirement ...
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ShadowGhost
post Oct 8 2004, 07:44 PM
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Actually, Shock Gloves have a wire mesh covering (BBB), so any part of them can be used to deliver the shock. BBB does say it is triggered by impact, so a mere touch won't be enough.

Shock Hand - the cybernetic version is superior - 12 charges, higher damage and cybernetically turned on/off. It however, is limited to either knuckles or palm.
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Nikoli
post Oct 8 2004, 07:46 PM
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I want that for the wrist.

Just try and slap the cuffs on fragger.
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Little Bill
post Oct 8 2004, 08:25 PM
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Can't an active focus be used to target ritual sorcery? If that's the case it seems pretty clear that a bound focus is considered to be a part of the mage for purposes of spells. Using it to deliver a touch spell seems a logical extension of this.

From a game-balance perspective, I don't see any problem with using a really expensive item that you had to pay a bunch of karma to use in the first place to deliver a touch spell.

QUOTE (Cochise)
How about this one: Our magician is a Idol follower of Gaia. Earth itself is his Idol / Godess and he lives in tune with his Godess ... He himself is the natural extention of Earth, just as anything living on Earth ...


I would say that in this case the earth is still a seperate entity from himself, as Gaia has a will distinct from his own which he is attempting to live in tune with. He may call himself an extension of Gaia's will, but it isn't literal - he is at best an ambassador of Gaia, not a literal part or extension of her.
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Cochise
post Oct 8 2004, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE (Little Bill)
Can't an active focus be used to target ritual sorcery?  If that's the case it seems pretty clear that a bound focus is considered to be a part of the mage for purposes of spells.  Using it to deliver a touch spell seems a logical extension of this. 

Non-active foci (rpvided that the ritual team gets a hold of one) or even ordinary items that have not been "bonded" with karma can be used as ritual link. Thus your "logical" extension still doesn't hold the necessary water concerning the individual decission if or when the requirement of touch is fulfilled ...

QUOTE
From a game-balance perspective, I don't see any problem with using a really expensive item that you had to pay a bunch of karma to use in the first place to deliver a touch spell.


I however do see such a balance problem, if an item that already provides serious advantages (in form of extra dice for the melee test and potentially reach) can be used in conjunction with yet another -1 TN modifier from the "get in touch" rules (which can even be increasd with the new Attunement metamagic for adepts by another -1 TN modifier when our casting characters becomes an adept of the magicians way) ...

QUOTE
I would say that in this case the earth is still a seperate entity from himself, as Gaia has a will distinct from his own which he is attempting to live in tune with.  He may call himself an extension of Gaia's will, but it isn't literal - he is at best an ambassador of Gaia, not a literal part or extension of her.


As I said: Your POV on that is fine and dandy. It's still a question on how you (or others) view the "Touch"-requirement. Depending on how you rationalize "Touch", this provided concept could be enough to fulfill the "Touch" ...
I already provided my POV on weapon foci and "Touch" ... everything else is up to the individual GM ...
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Edward
post Oct 9 2004, 12:14 AM
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I would not allow a weapon focus to be used but as it is also the fetish linked to the spells it would make sense the fetish is not just linked to the mage it is part of the spell. I dislike granting the reach but at least you’re not a troll with a pole arm.

Edward
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Necro Tech
post Oct 9 2004, 02:34 AM
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BBB pg 178 "Some spells, particularly health spells, require the caster to touch the intended target in order for the spell to work. To touch an unwilling target, the caster must make a normal unarmed attack as part of the Complex Action of Spell casting (see Melee Combat, p. 120). The target number for the unarmed attack has a -1 modifier, since the caster only needs to touch the target."

Unarmed = no weapon focus.

Edit: K....no weapon foci with reach. :Edit

This post has been edited by Necro Tech: Oct 9 2004, 03:17 AM
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Herald of Verjig...
post Oct 9 2004, 02:39 AM
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Hardliner weapon focus uses the unarmed skill (or martial art).
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Cochise
post Oct 9 2004, 12:09 PM
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*damn* ... Necro now you took away my fun :D ... I wanted to wait just one more posting before making that point ...

Btw. Herald ... Guess why I said that I wounldn't prohibit the use of gloves when fulfilling the "touch"-requirement ... *g*
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toturi
post Oct 9 2004, 01:58 PM
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Ahhh I can see it now... Headbanging Rapunzel Rocker kills 20 with Touch spell!
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spotlite
post Oct 9 2004, 04:50 PM
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What would be the effects of a mage quickening cripple limb to his hard liner or shock gloves (hell, even just normal gloves)? I'm making the assumption that s/he won't be affected by their own spell, here. Would you simply keep a list of the successes and compare them to any targets you strike as appropriate, or would you rule that the gloves would only affect the person the spell was originally cast on? And if the latter would that imply that you couldn't quicken it in the first place without someone to beat on while you're doing it? If you allowed it, what would be the duration of the effect on a target struck? Would they simply remain crippled until the quickened spell on the gloves was dispelled?

I'm just thinking - gloves with cripple limb quickened, and then using a touch range damaging manip spell as well would be really horrible. If the target remained crippled unless the glove was dispelled I think it would be more of a liability than anything else unless you had time to cleanse everyone you fight, but I'm curious as to what people think.

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Cochise
post Oct 9 2004, 05:14 PM
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Quickening wouldn't work there ... You have to explicitly cast the spell at its target before quickening it ... Cripple Limb is a spell against living targets and your glove is neither a living being nor could you cripple any of its limbs ;)

[edit]Nor could you transfer the spell effect from the glove to anything that touches the glove, even if you could cast it against the glove ... Otherwise anyone who touches a person under the effect of "cripple limb" would instantly also be under that effect of the spell ...[/edit]
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Friggas Ring
post Oct 9 2004, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE (Cochise @ Oct 9 2004, 05:14 PM)
Quickening wouldn't work there ...

I think he means Anchoring. I'm not too familiar with Anchoring, but you may be able to bind the spell to an object and it'll be cast on the target. If you can bind a healing spell to a beverage to make a healing potion, why not bind a touch based powerbolt or something to the blade of your sword?

Not really karma-cost effective if you ask me, plus you still need to deal with the drain once it's "cast" on the person, but it's possible I would think.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Oct 9 2004, 05:54 PM
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If you get the old anchoring rules (or get them past the GM), you could make a cripple limb to trigger every time your glove smacks into something. You may even be able to limit it to combat and not affect yourself.
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spotlite
post Oct 9 2004, 09:23 PM
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No, I meant quickening, I was just curious to see what people would say. I personally would have gone with Cochise's interpretation had a player come to me with it.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Oct 11 2004, 04:58 PM
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I think I will continue to allow him to use his surrent combination, but will just need to enforce all the extras that make weilding a magical sword in public illegal. Lone Mages doing drive-by's, good luck getting a longsword into a night-club, etc.

The focus & reach + touch-spell combination is nasty, but I think I can keep this runner on his toes.

Thanks again for all the feedback.
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