Ares Viper Slivergun, Newbie. Options

[Sabosect]

Please humor me in this. I know I am new on here and to the game.

One thing I've been wondering about is why the Slivergun is considered so bad. It uses Flechette rounds, which come with so many disadvantages the gun is nowhere near as good as it seems. I found out how badly it can fare during a run where things went very badly.

From page 116 of the 3rd Edition rulebook (latest printing):

[Ombre]

You are wondering if there is any advantage in packing a Slivergun, aren't you? (Being a French-speaking French :D , I wanted to be sure)

As far as I'm concerned, I think a Slivergunn is not such a crappy choice: against armored targets, it is exactly the same as a good old heavy pistol ( Predator for example) since you either take Ballistic Armor or double Impact (which is slightly better on a few occasions:armor jacket, vest w/plates and of course security armor). Otherwise you get the flechette boost to 9S, which makes it the perfect critter killer (try that on a barghest or a pack of ghouls). I don't think the high ammo capacity to be so uninteresting...30 shots is something that can save your life, especially in a weapon with such a Dissimulation factor (including the silencer).
of course it lacks the versatility of a regular gun, since you can't use specific ammo (APDS, Ex-explo, gel...) according to the situation...

[Zeel De Mort]

This topic just may have been discussed briefly once or twice before. ;) Try doing a search for it.

My personal opinion is that the AVS is pretty poor. Against armoured targets you're generally worse off - it's not very common for an armoured character to have less than half as much impact as balistic, although it is usually a bit less. Best case scenario against armoured targets is that it's just as effective as a regular heavy pistol, and that won't happen often.

Against truely unarmoured targets (and that also means they can't have any dermal armour or you lose the flechette bonus) you are a bit better off with the AVS, since you get +1 damage level. But a) It's pretty rare that you'd be trying to kill someone who has no armour at all, and b) It's still quite easy to kill such a character with a regular heavy pistol anyway!


AVS does burst fire as a simple action, which is it's best feature if you ask me. That gets the damage code up to 12S (or 12D against unarmoured people). The equivalent would be something like a Savalette Guardian, which also does 12S but requires a complex action. The problem is, as Ombre said, there's no versatility. I would only ever use regular ammo if I was desperate and couldn't get hold of any EX (avail 6 - not that hard) or APDS etc.

Depends what you use it for. An AVS does have some applications, but generally a regular heavy pistol is better, and certainly more versatile.

[Eyeless Blond]

One occasion where the Slivergun packs a really good punch is with a Smartlink 2. Make a Called Shot (+2 Call -2 SL = +0 net mod) and bypass all armor, doing 12D with one Simple Action!

Note, btw, the silencer is unique in that it is integrated, and not sticking off the barrel, so by the letter of the rules you can add a gas vent or something else to it as well. Having shock pads or personalized grip is just icing.

[Zeel De Mort]

This is true. However it only works if your target doesn't have any dermal armour, since I don't see how you can bypass that! Or at least I wouldn't rule you can.

Also, you could just use a regular heavy pistol with a SL-2 and EX rounds. You'd have much more chance of hitting, and would still do 14S if it was burst fire. It would take a complex action I suppose, which you could convert to Aim/Shoot with the AVS. But then aaah, APDS!

[Req]

But wait, can you have sex with it?

[Sabosect]

[Jari_Kafghan]

the correct awnser is only if you dikote it.

[Fygg Nuuton]

[toturi]

Come on, guys. Keep it on topic, this is a newbie asking for help. Not to listen to your/our in-jokes.

[Fortune]

[Sabosect]

What's comical is I was questioning how it may be overpowered. I got that idea from one topic I was reading. Instead, I get the answer I was suspecting: It is likely not powerful enough, but at times has more than enough power.

[JaronK]

You can't add a gas vent to it... the rules talk about mounts that are used up by included weapon options being used up, and thus unable to take other mounts. The best recoil comp you can get on it would be a personalized grip for -1, which is pretty poor for a burst fire weapon. It's great for highly skilled assassin types though... get close to your target, take a few turns aiming, then burst fire to bypass armour with your silenced conceal 6 weapon. Ouch.

JaronK

[Sabosect]

[JaronK]

The rules don't seem to indicate you can remove built in modifications like silencers... they don't take up concealability (advantage) but they permanently take up the mount (disadvantage). I don't think you can pop off the silencer for a gas vent.

JaronK

[toturi]

You can do it, if and only if the FCU or the gas vent is equal or less than that of the silencer.

[Sabosect]

Just pointing out I had that in mind. And, from what the GM who approved it told me, you can pop out a silencer if you know what you are doing. One of my contacts did (but I had to pay extra for the weapon...)

[JaronK]

Well, with access to a gunsmithing shop or facility, you might be able to do it. The FCU of a gas vent IV system is far greater than that of a silencer, but even with a smartlink 2 you can design the AVS with the gun design rules with .5 FCU to spare, without having to resort to the improved FCU option. But that would require some noticeable skill and tools, and would lower the concealability to 4, at which point a good burst fire shotgun would be a better option.

JaronK

[Glyph]

The Ares Viper is not too overpowered, but it is still an extremely useful gun.

Disadvanages:
> Uses flechette ammo only. Flechette ammo is superior against unarmored targets, who will rarely be encountered by shadowrunners. Against armored targets, it is usually slightly less effective (you use either the ballistic or double the impact rating against it, and impact armor tends to be low enough that double impact is not higher than ballistic as much as you might think). Flechette ammo is also expensive.

Advantages:
> Stealth. It has a built-in silencer/sound suppressor. It has a Concealability of 6 - which can be raised to 12 by using a concealable holster and a secure long coat. It lighter than most heavy pistols or machine pistols.

> Powerful. Most of its stats resemble those of a light pistol, but it has the 9M damage code of a heavy pistol, and on top of that it has full burst-fire capability. Yes, the recoil compensation sucks, but that can be said of most silenced weapons.

> High ammo capacity. 30 rounds is incredible for a pistol.


The Viper is primarily a stealth weapon, meant for covert ops and dealings where weapons should be discreet and non-obvious. In that role, it is far better than a light pistol. It also makes a good gun for a back-up, or for just walking Seattle's mean streets. Honestly, it only lags behind the other heavy pistols against heavily armored foes.


One area of controversy with the Ares Viper Slivergun is with the revised rules for called shots (which are already controvsial in and of themselves ;) ), which let you use a called shot to negate armor. With most called shots, you have to choose to either negate the armor or stage up the Damage code. But flechette ammo stages up its Damage code against unarmored opponents - so someone using a slivergun can always choose to negate armor, and winds up getting the Damage code increase, too, for hitting an unarmored part of the body. Add in the Smartlink II, which reduces the penalty for called shots, and suddenly that Ares Viper starts looking mighty appealing. Like Eyeless Blond said, 12D bursts. :love:


The other area of controversy is not so much how powerful the Viper is, but how some people feel that it violates realism, and some of the generally accepted conventions of the game, in order to duplicate Molly's pistol from Neuromancer.

Also, people new to the game trying to powergame often tend to pick the Viper, giving it a bit of a stigma among some of the more experienced gamers, who have had bad experiences with people using the Viper.

[Fortune]

[Eyeless Blond]

...except an Underbarrel weight isn't allowed for a pistol, as it has no underbarrel (or, for that matter, overbarrel) mount. Of course this is completely absurd, but hey, what can you do?

[Fortune]

Since an external Laser Sight can be mounted on a pistol in either under or over-barrel variety, as can an external Smartlink and Rangefinder, I find it strange that a weight could not be added in lieu of any or all of the above. :please:

[JaronK]

Actually, you can't add any underbarrel accessories, so you can't have an underbarrel laser sight. Realistic? No. Balance issue I suppose. But you can have a top mount... rangefinders go well there.

And the strength thing is 6+ to get one point, and I think 12+ to get 2 points. So realistically, for most folks, two points (personalized grip and strength 6) is the best you can do... most trolls aren't the subtle types, and would prefer an Ares Alpha or something, so 12 strength isn't going to apply in most cases.

JaronK

[Eyeless Blond]

Look again. :) Pg. 75 of CC, where they outline the types of mounts available for pistols. Notive the lack of any underbarrel mounts whatsoever, no matter what frame you use (although I was mistaken as to the lack of top mounts; most pistal types do have one.) I guess you could try mounting an underbarrel weight on a top mount, but I'm pretty sure that's illegal for certain common-sense reasons. :)

[Fortune]

I never meant to imply that you could mount them according to the CC rules. Go back and read some of the text of existing guns in the game, where it describes stuff being mounted underbarrel on a pistol. I meant that there were already guns using this feature, so it makes no sense to disallow it as a general rule. I can see Hold Outs and Light Pistols possibly not being able to mount under-barrel accessories, but it just doesn't make sense for Heavy Pistols, when we can do the same right now. It isn't like it's some high-tech recoil reduction system like Raygun's ERASe, it's a weight on the end of your barrel.

Over-barrel weights do exist IRL, if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure one of our resident gun enthusiasts will correct me if I'm wrong.