Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Ares Viper Slivergun
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Please humor me in this. I know I am new on here and to the game.

One thing I've been wondering about is why the Slivergun is considered so bad. It uses Flechette rounds, which come with so many disadvantages the gun is nowhere near as good as it seems. I found out how badly it can fare during a run where things went very badly.

From page 116 of the 3rd Edition rulebook (latest printing):

Against unarmored targets, flechette rounds increase their damage codes by one level. For example, a heavy pistol (Damage Code 9M) firing a flechette round would have a Damage Code of 9S against unarmored targets. Against armored targets, flechette rounds fare less well. For the target's armor rating, use either double its Impact Rating or its normal Ballistic Armor Rating.

Considering later on it also states the ammo is pretty much useless against just about anything with armor and Dermal Plating negates the damage increase, I would say this ammo is pretty much a disadvantage against anyone smart enough to wear armor. Oh, how I pity the poor wageslaves and innocent bystanders.

Considering the problems of the ammo, I have no problem with the capacity. After all, a person is going to need more bullets to have the same chance of being effective with this weapon. Even a leather jacket can pose a challenge against this.

But what about the built-in silencer? Or the burst-fire option? Well, considering how pistols can only have one barrel-mounted option, I would count the silencer for that option. That means anyone wanting to keep the ability to hide the weapon can't do much about the recoil of the burst-fire option. If they want to add a Gas Vent, I would say to them they lose the silencer and one or two points of concealability. Suddenly not quite that attractive anymore. Shock pads are useless for this, as the weapon is not designed to accept them. Also true of gyro stabilization.

My own experience with it tells me a person needs to put more bullets into the air with the Slivergun to have a chance of success overall when compared to a normal weapon. The burst-fire option is almost a requirement to make it worthwhile.

Can the concealability be gotten high, even with the Gas Vent? Yes. With the right holster and armor, I can get this sucker up to a rating of 9 in the "hide me" department. But why waste money doing that to this gun when I can pull the same thing with an unmodified Predator and get it up to a concealability of 10? After all, the Predator doesn't suffer half of the drawbacks using its normal ammunition, meaning less bullets overall when compared to the Slivergun, and spare clips for it are lighter to carry, meaning I can have more bullets on me when I need them.

Still, perhaps the total package is too much for the weapon. But I cannot see how and would appreciate some enlightenment.
You are wondering if there is any advantage in packing a Slivergun, aren't you? (Being a French-speaking French biggrin.gif , I wanted to be sure)

As far as I'm concerned, I think a Slivergunn is not such a crappy choice: against armored targets, it is exactly the same as a good old heavy pistol ( Predator for example) since you either take Ballistic Armor or double Impact (which is slightly better on a few occasions:armor jacket, vest w/plates and of course security armor). Otherwise you get the flechette boost to 9S, which makes it the perfect critter killer (try that on a barghest or a pack of ghouls). I don't think the high ammo capacity to be so uninteresting...30 shots is something that can save your life, especially in a weapon with such a Dissimulation factor (including the silencer).
of course it lacks the versatility of a regular gun, since you can't use specific ammo (APDS, Ex-explo, gel...) according to the situation...
Zeel De Mort
This topic just may have been discussed briefly once or twice before. wink.gif Try doing a search for it.

My personal opinion is that the AVS is pretty poor. Against armoured targets you're generally worse off - it's not very common for an armoured character to have less than half as much impact as balistic, although it is usually a bit less. Best case scenario against armoured targets is that it's just as effective as a regular heavy pistol, and that won't happen often.

Against truely unarmoured targets (and that also means they can't have any dermal armour or you lose the flechette bonus) you are a bit better off with the AVS, since you get +1 damage level. But a) It's pretty rare that you'd be trying to kill someone who has no armour at all, and b) It's still quite easy to kill such a character with a regular heavy pistol anyway!

AVS does burst fire as a simple action, which is it's best feature if you ask me. That gets the damage code up to 12S (or 12D against unarmoured people). The equivalent would be something like a Savalette Guardian, which also does 12S but requires a complex action. The problem is, as Ombre said, there's no versatility. I would only ever use regular ammo if I was desperate and couldn't get hold of any EX (avail 6 - not that hard) or APDS etc.

Depends what you use it for. An AVS does have some applications, but generally a regular heavy pistol is better, and certainly more versatile.
Eyeless Blond
One occasion where the Slivergun packs a really good punch is with a Smartlink 2. Make a Called Shot (+2 Call -2 SL = +0 net mod) and bypass all armor, doing 12D with one Simple Action!

Note, btw, the silencer is unique in that it is integrated, and not sticking off the barrel, so by the letter of the rules you can add a gas vent or something else to it as well. Having shock pads or personalized grip is just icing.
Zeel De Mort
This is true. However it only works if your target doesn't have any dermal armour, since I don't see how you can bypass that! Or at least I wouldn't rule you can.

Also, you could just use a regular heavy pistol with a SL-2 and EX rounds. You'd have much more chance of hitting, and would still do 14S if it was burst fire. It would take a complex action I suppose, which you could convert to Aim/Shoot with the AVS. But then aaah, APDS!
But wait, can you have sex with it?
But wait, can you have sex with it?

Dwarves or really cybered Sammies might be able to.
the correct awnser is only if you dikote it.
Fygg Nuuton
QUOTE (Jari_Kafghan @ Oct 9 2004, 03:29 PM)
the correct awnser is only if you dikote it.

and after you have a nice dinner

on topic: the AVS sucks, and is unrealistic even by SR standards
Come on, guys. Keep it on topic, this is a newbie asking for help. Not to listen to your/our in-jokes.
QUOTE (Zeel De Mort @ Oct 10 2004, 06:46 AM)
But then aaah, APDS!

Which wouldn't factor into the equation with a Called Shot to avoid armor.

As case could be made for avoiding Dermal as well, as it doesn't cover 100% of the body and head...but I won't be doing that, as I hate Called Shots avoiding armor in an abstract combat system.

Sabosect: Other than excelling in Critter-bashing, another place here the Viper really shines is in situations where concealability and subtlety are needed. It's a great weapon to sneak into a high-society party or Corporate enclave, where your target(s) would not be expected to wear large amounts of armor.

I really don't see the downside of the Viper. A number of points have been raised already in this thread in its favor. Of course it's not always going to be the right tool for the job every time (to paraphrase DeNiro in Ronin), but then nothing ever is.
What's comical is I was questioning how it may be overpowered. I got that idea from one topic I was reading. Instead, I get the answer I was suspecting: It is likely not powerful enough, but at times has more than enough power.
You can't add a gas vent to it... the rules talk about mounts that are used up by included weapon options being used up, and thus unable to take other mounts. The best recoil comp you can get on it would be a personalized grip for -1, which is pretty poor for a burst fire weapon. It's great for highly skilled assassin types though... get close to your target, take a few turns aiming, then burst fire to bypass armour with your silenced conceal 6 weapon. Ouch.

QUOTE (JaronK @ Oct 9 2004, 09:40 PM)
You can't add a gas vent to it... the rules talk about mounts that are used up by included weapon options being used up, and thus unable to take other mounts.  The best recoil comp you can get on it would be a personalized grip for -1, which is pretty poor for a burst fire weapon.  It's great for highly skilled assassin types though... get close to your target, take a few turns aiming, then burst fire to bypass armour with your silenced conceal 6 weapon.  Ouch.


QUOTE (Sabosect @ Oct 9 2004, 2:50 PM)
If they want to add a Gas Vent, I would say to them they lose the silencer and one or two points of concealability. Suddenly not quite that attractive anymore. Shock pads are useless for this, as the weapon is not designed to accept them. Also true of gyro stabilization.
The rules don't seem to indicate you can remove built in modifications like silencers... they don't take up concealability (advantage) but they permanently take up the mount (disadvantage). I don't think you can pop off the silencer for a gas vent.

You can do it, if and only if the FCU or the gas vent is equal or less than that of the silencer.
Just pointing out I had that in mind. And, from what the GM who approved it told me, you can pop out a silencer if you know what you are doing. One of my contacts did (but I had to pay extra for the weapon...)
Well, with access to a gunsmithing shop or facility, you might be able to do it. The FCU of a gas vent IV system is far greater than that of a silencer, but even with a smartlink 2 you can design the AVS with the gun design rules with .5 FCU to spare, without having to resort to the improved FCU option. But that would require some noticeable skill and tools, and would lower the concealability to 4, at which point a good burst fire shotgun would be a better option.

The Ares Viper is not too overpowered, but it is still an extremely useful gun.

> Uses flechette ammo only. Flechette ammo is superior against unarmored targets, who will rarely be encountered by shadowrunners. Against armored targets, it is usually slightly less effective (you use either the ballistic or double the impact rating against it, and impact armor tends to be low enough that double impact is not higher than ballistic as much as you might think). Flechette ammo is also expensive.

> Stealth. It has a built-in silencer/sound suppressor. It has a Concealability of 6 - which can be raised to 12 by using a concealable holster and a secure long coat. It lighter than most heavy pistols or machine pistols.

> Powerful. Most of its stats resemble those of a light pistol, but it has the 9M damage code of a heavy pistol, and on top of that it has full burst-fire capability. Yes, the recoil compensation sucks, but that can be said of most silenced weapons.

> High ammo capacity. 30 rounds is incredible for a pistol.

The Viper is primarily a stealth weapon, meant for covert ops and dealings where weapons should be discreet and non-obvious. In that role, it is far better than a light pistol. It also makes a good gun for a back-up, or for just walking Seattle's mean streets. Honestly, it only lags behind the other heavy pistols against heavily armored foes.

One area of controversy with the Ares Viper Slivergun is with the revised rules for called shots (which are already controvsial in and of themselves wink.gif ), which let you use a called shot to negate armor. With most called shots, you have to choose to either negate the armor or stage up the Damage code. But flechette ammo stages up its Damage code against unarmored opponents - so someone using a slivergun can always choose to negate armor, and winds up getting the Damage code increase, too, for hitting an unarmored part of the body. Add in the Smartlink II, which reduces the penalty for called shots, and suddenly that Ares Viper starts looking mighty appealing. Like Eyeless Blond said, 12D bursts. love.gif

The other area of controversy is not so much how powerful the Viper is, but how some people feel that it violates realism, and some of the generally accepted conventions of the game, in order to duplicate Molly's pistol from Neuromancer.

Also, people new to the game trying to powergame often tend to pick the Viper, giving it a bit of a stigma among some of the more experienced gamers, who have had bad experiences with people using the Viper.
QUOTE (JaronK)
The best recoil comp you can get on it would be a personalized grip for -1, which is pretty poor for a burst fire weapon.

...and an Underbarrel Weight [-1], and of course Strength 5 [-1]. I believe Strength 9 gives [-2] and 13 gives [-3], but I might be misremembering. It happens at my age. wink.gif
Eyeless Blond
...except an Underbarrel weight isn't allowed for a pistol, as it has no underbarrel (or, for that matter, overbarrel) mount. Of course this is completely absurd, but hey, what can you do?
Since an external Laser Sight can be mounted on a pistol in either under or over-barrel variety, as can an external Smartlink and Rangefinder, I find it strange that a weight could not be added in lieu of any or all of the above. ohplease.gif
Actually, you can't add any underbarrel accessories, so you can't have an underbarrel laser sight. Realistic? No. Balance issue I suppose. But you can have a top mount... rangefinders go well there.

And the strength thing is 6+ to get one point, and I think 12+ to get 2 points. So realistically, for most folks, two points (personalized grip and strength 6) is the best you can do... most trolls aren't the subtle types, and would prefer an Ares Alpha or something, so 12 strength isn't going to apply in most cases.

Eyeless Blond
Look again. smile.gif Pg. 75 of CC, where they outline the types of mounts available for pistols. Notive the lack of any underbarrel mounts whatsoever, no matter what frame you use (although I was mistaken as to the lack of top mounts; most pistal types do have one.) I guess you could try mounting an underbarrel weight on a top mount, but I'm pretty sure that's illegal for certain common-sense reasons. smile.gif
I never meant to imply that you could mount them according to the CC rules. Go back and read some of the text of existing guns in the game, where it describes stuff being mounted underbarrel on a pistol. I meant that there were already guns using this feature, so it makes no sense to disallow it as a general rule. I can see Hold Outs and Light Pistols possibly not being able to mount under-barrel accessories, but it just doesn't make sense for Heavy Pistols, when we can do the same right now. It isn't like it's some high-tech recoil reduction system like Raygun's ERASe, it's a weight on the end of your barrel.

Over-barrel weights do exist IRL, if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure one of our resident gun enthusiasts will correct me if I'm wrong.
I think the real question is can you have your ally spirit take the form of it biggrin.gif .
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Fortune)
when we can do the same right now.

No doubt about that. In fact, pistols are just about the only thing that have underbarrel weights IRL. But mounting accessories on guns has a bunch of limitations in SR that don't exist IRL -- e.g. there are no assault rifles with vertical foregrips, rangefinders, laser sights, sound suppressors, gun cams and magnifying scopes in SR. Game balance has something to do with it, lack of knowledge likely was the other main contributor.

I don't remember seeing an overbarrel weight that had not other purpose.
As a GM I tend to let player mount just about anything they want on there guns. It isn't a house rule per say, lets just say I don't call them on it when there HP has a Under barrel weight and a flashlight.
Personally, I like AVS as a stealth weapon. In a shadowrun, a silent and concealed weapon is worth a dozen Predators.

Like people have said; it has its place. On the way in, the AVS is a subtle and effective tool. On the way out, with sirens blaring and Red Samurai at your back, it is not so useful. (but the reason for the alarms is probably the gun-bunny who just could not contain his excitement, so he can hold them off while you run)
The Jopp
ANOTHER thread about the AVS??? *sigh* Ok, let ol' uncle Jopp give you youngsters (not YOU Fortune biggrin.gif ) a rundown of the mythical weapon in question. A long time ago I made a breakdown of the weapon just to see what the hell it was designed as and came to the following conclusion.

Ok, after a short discussion of the weapon with my GM I decided to recreate the weapon with the CC rules to see if I could come close to it.


First try: Heavy pistol frame
I did not manage to build the weapon, and I wasn't surprised. According to CC it is supposed to have a concealability of 6, I managed to get 2, and only because I managed to boost it with +2 - in other words, it was as easy to hide as a Toyota Corolla inside your cyberholster WITHOUT modification of the concealability, and a concealability of 2 was not much better.

Ok, second try, Light pistol frame
Hmm, I managed to bump up the concealability to 3, as effective as hiding a 200 pound bulldog in your purse then...

What's is WRONG with this weapon? Ok, let's go through the SR3 rulebook and actually SEE what it says about the weapon.

Ok, read the following lines from SR3 under "Ares Viper Slivergun"

"This pistol fires flechette ammunition (which is already factored in
into its damage code). It has the range of a heavy pistol and
features a built in silencer

1:Now, WHY would they add the line that it has the RANGE of a HEAVY pistol if it IS a heavy pistol? Heavy pistol range would be quite natural if that was the case.) Sounds odd, especially with a base concealability of 6.

2:Ok, according to the rules it fires Flechette ammunition and raises its damage code against UNARMOURED targets, would that mean that it uses 9M then against armoured targets? makes sense.

3: Armoured targets use their HIGHEST armour rating.

4: The damage code is NOT raised against targets with Dermal Armour (all Trolls can now smile at the camera)


Conclusion? This weapon, even with the SR CC rules is IMPOSSIBLE. So, how to we find a solution? Easy.

With a concealability of 6 and a magazine capacity of 30 I would make it into an autopistol.

The gun would make 6L(f) in single fire mode and 9M(f) in burst-fire mode. Unarmoured targets would face 6M / 9S damage.

That's it folks, I, no matter what the SR blokes actually says would rule this weapon as an Autopistol. Compare the gun with other autopistols and you WILL find similarities.

BTW, I would really like an explanation by someone from Fanpro about this gun, should it be labeled an autopistol? It sounds a lot more reasonable.
You use some pretty fuzzy math, partner.

Frame: Heavy Pistol
Power: 9
Damage level: M
Mode: SA
Conceal: 5
Weight: 2.75
Ammo cap: 10
Ammo Load: C
Mounts: Barrel, Top
FCU: 2
DPV: 120

Design Features
SA/BF: -1 FCU, +100 DP, +.5 weight
Flechette Only: +10 DP, +.5 FCU
Improved Concealability 2: +40 DP, -.5 FCU, +2 conceal
Weight Decrease 5(+25 DP, -1.25 weight)
Extended Clip +20(+40 DP) (This is probably why you ended up with such a low conceal - Use the Extended Clip modification as a design option for clip-loaded guns, NOT the Improved Ammo Capacity design option)

Right now, our gun looks like this - Identical to the core AVS except for price and the lack of a sound suppressor.
Power: 9
Damage Level: M
Mode: SA/BF
Conceal: 7
Weight: 1.5
Ammo: 30©
FCU: 1

Current cost is 335 DP or 1675.

If you add a Sound Suppressor(+150 DP, +.5 weight, -2 conceal), you'd end up with a conceal of 5. The reason you would add a sound suppressor and not a silencer is that that is what the AVS has as of the latest Errata.

If you try to replicate it with a machine pistol, you'll quickly realize that it can't be done there either. Machine pistols can't take as many levels of Weight Decrease as heavy pistols and they start off 1.5 kgs heavier.

I'd re-classify the AVS as a machine pistol, except that doing so would mean no one would ever use it again. So keep it as an HP as long as your game doesn't allow called shots to ignore armor. If you do allow called shots to ignore armor, my only rseponce is that it sucks to be you.
I dislike the erratta, myself. Non-hardened armor can only reduce the TN for soaking damage to 2, so to me, bypassing armor is simulated by getting a decent roll on your attack. The bypassing armor option goes against the grain of an abstract combat system. It wouldn't be horribly broken by itself, but when you combine it with the Smartlink II's reduction of called shot penalties, and rounds like flechette and glazers that do substantial extra damage against unarmored targets, you start getting into some problems.

I am not sure what I would do about it. Maybe someone with an SOTA cybernetic targetting system should be able be extremely lethal by firing flesh-rending rounds into unprotected areas of the target.

But just be sure that if the PCs use it, the NPCs do, too. vegm.gif
Not having delved too deeply into the Cannon Companion yet (yes, still catching up with 3e, I know) I was wondering about the Improved Gas Vent II. It has no concealibity modifier, so can it still be added to the AVS under CC rules?
IIRC the silencer on an AVS occupies a barrel mount and the IGV 2 requires a barrel mount. So no.
Darnit smile.gif There goes my two-AVS-toting-burst-firing-gun-kata-physad wink.gif
Austere Emancipator
A "Silencer" or a suppressor cannot be mounted on anything but the Barrel mount, so they are never compatible with Gas Vents, except in the special case of the Ranger Arms SM-3. Get cyberarm gyromounts instead.

If you play by the FAQ interpretation of called shots in ranged combat bypassing armor and are otherwise strictly following canon, akimbo-AVS's wouldn't be that great anyway. You'd only get the Smartlink bonuses for one gun. You can slaughter a whole lot of unarmored targets that way, though.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012